breaking probabilities in sophont psionics

[manypenguin]

First of all, I'd like to apologize if this reproduces someone else's observation. I searched but didn't see anything similar in the forums.

During the sophont creation process, a "Gender Six" sophont has a (10/36) chance of rolling on table B. It then has a (3/36) chance of getting an initial Psi=60.

Let's see how this can be taken advantage of.

If tested as an infant, our example sophont with Psi-60 has 360 points to allocate to Basic Abilities. Let's max out Remote and split the rest, leading to a D-S-R=150-150-60. It also has 360 points to allocate to Psionic Senses. Let's allocate all 360 to Psi-Vision or Psi-Awareness. Continuing, there are 360 points to allocate to Psionic ECM. Let's allocate all 360 to Teleport. This is where things get interesting.

"Teleport requires seeing the destination." Okay, so how far can we see with our remote sense?
360 (Range of 60D; let's use the worst roll) < 360 (our Psi-whatever) + -60 (Benchmark; let's use the worst possible of trying to see a Size=0 at Range=60) + 180 (Self) - 60 (Remote) -5 (Mod; let's assume it's pitch black where we're trying to scan).
360 < 360 - 60 + 180 - 60 - 5
0 < 55
Hey, automatic success at Range=60.

Now let's try to teleport there with automatic success.

360 (Range of 60D; let's use the worst roll) < 360 (Teleport score) + 180 (let's use Direct; it would be the same for Self) - 60 (Remote) - Size^2

360 < 360 + 180 - 60 - Size^2

360 < 480 - Size^2

Size < 10.95

That's a pretty nice sized ship one could bring along.

So how far is R=60? As far as I can tell, the maximally-defined range explicitly given is S=23 (so R=28) of 1 pc. S=22 (so R=27) is 1/2 pc. Looking at the lists of world and space ranges, it seems a safe lower bound to assume that a given range is at least double the previous range. With this assumption, R=60 is about 2^32 pc. That's about one seventh of the diameter of the observable universe, according to Wikipedia.

Imagine that in a semi-organic brain module at a moderate tech level. All you have to do is start and end in zero-G to avoid the altitude effects, and you have one interesting way of getting around the universe.

 

[ThornPlutonius]

Cool. Use T5 for SPI's old Universe/Outreach/Starforce/Starsoldiers setting (telepathic pilots). Maybe even Spinrad's "Child of Fortune" 'verse (orgasmic pilots).

 

[aramis]

First of all, I'd like to apologize if this reproduces someone else's observation. I searched but didn't see anything similar in the forums.

During the sophont creation process, a "Gender Six" sophont has a (10/36) chance of rolling on table B. It then has a (3/36) chance of getting an initial Psi=60.

Let's see how this can be taken advantage of.

If tested as an infant, our example sophont with Psi-60 has 360 points to allocate to Basic Abilities. Let's max out Remote and split the rest, leading to a D-S-R=150-150-60. It also has 360 points to allocate to Psionic Senses. Let's allocate all 360 to Psi-Vision or Psi-Awareness. Continuing, there are 360 points to allocate to Psionic ECM. Let's allocate all 360 to Teleport. This is where things get interesting.

"Teleport requires seeing the destination." Okay, so how far can we see with our remote sense?
360 (Range of 60D; let's use the worst roll) < 360 (our Psi-whatever) + -60 (Benchmark; let's use the worst possible of trying to see a Size=0 at Range=60) + 180 (Self) - 60 (Remote) -5 (Mod; let's assume it's pitch black where we're trying to scan).
360 < 360 - 60 + 180 - 60 - 5
0 < 55
Hey, automatic success at Range=60.

Now let's try to teleport there with automatic success.

360 (Range of 60D; let's use the worst roll) < 360 (Teleport score) + 180 (let's use Direct; it would be the same for Self) - 60 (Remote) - Size^2

360 < 360 + 180 - 60 - Size^2

360 < 480 - Size^2

Size < 10.95

That's a pretty nice sized ship one could bring along.

So how far is R=60? As far as I can tell, the maximally-defined range explicitly given is S=23 (so R=28) of 1 pc. S=22 (so R=27) is 1/2 pc. Looking at the lists of world and space ranges, it seems a safe lower bound to assume that a given range is at least double the previous range. With this assumption, R=60 is about 2^32 pc. That's about one seventh of the diameter of the observable universe, according to Wikipedia.

Imagine that in a semi-organic brain module at a moderate tech level. All you have to do is start and end in zero-G to avoid the altitude effects, and you have one interesting way of getting around the universe.

You're forgetting something. Something REALLY big. The solar gravity well. FOr earth, past the hill sphere of Earth/luna, that's ≈1/1700th G (0.0059m/s²) of 1AU from a G2v.

And just for giggles, 42km/s, or 151,200km/h, escape velocity.

 

[manypenguin]

You're forgetting something. Something REALLY big. The solar gravity well. FOr earth, past the hill sphere of Earth/luna, that's ≈1/1700th G (0.0059m/s²) of 1AU from a G2v.

And just for giggles, 42km/s, or 151,200km/h, escape velocity.

I think I get what you're saying: at 1AU = 100D there are still "Altitude effects" from the star itself. Correct? Does that imply that 1000D is needed for this thought experiment to be viable with zero Hot or Cold temperature hits?

 

[aramis]

I think I get what you're saying: at 1AU = 100D there are still "Altitude effects" from the star itself. Correct? Does that imply that 1000D is needed for this thought experiment to be viable with zero Hot or Cold temperature hits?

You're going to need to account for the "altitude change" from the star, yes.
But also the energy of motion difference between the stars...

 

[mike wightman]

Why don't you need to take into account 'altitude affects' from the star when teleporting on a world?

You are getting into a whole realm of reference frame trouble if you go down this route...

Do you take into account the velocity of the solar system travelling through the galaxy, or the galaxy itself hurtling through space. What about the altitude affect of the galactic core, it is the gravity of the supermassive black hole at the centre of a galaxy that keeps solar systems in orbit after all.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Why don't you need to take into account 'altitude affects' from the star when teleporting on a world?

Because the difference in potential energy between 150 000 000 km and 150 000 000.5 km altitude is negligible.


The strength of the Sun's gravity in Earth orbit is less than ¹/₁₀₀₀th of the Earths surface gravity, hence we can ignore it unless we are in free-fall in relation to the Earth.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I think I get what you're saying: at 1AU = 100D there are still "Altitude effects" from the star itself. Correct? Does that imply that 1000D is needed for this thought experiment to be viable with zero Hot or Cold temperature hits?

The potential energy we lose by exiting the star's gravity well, we can regain by entering the target star's gravity well if we teleport to the right orbit. This should not be a major problem as long as we teleport between star systems (and not empty space).


Just as with jump drives we will reasonably exit the teleport with the same momentum, hence velocity vector, we entered the teleport with. If we entered teleport with zero velocity relative the local star, we will have a respectable velocity relative the target star, but that is a problem for the M-drive.

 

[aramis]

The potential energy we lose by exiting the star's gravity well, we can regain by entering the target star's gravity well if we teleport to the right orbit. This should not be a major problem as long as we teleport between star systems (and not empty space).


Just as with jump drives we will reasonably exit the teleport with the same momentum, hence velocity vector, we entered the teleport with. If we entered teleport with zero velocity relative the local star, we will have a respectable velocity relative the target star, but that is a problem for the M-drive.

More importantly, you can't safely TP between inner system worlds

 

[AnotherDilbert]

More importantly, you can't safely TP between inner system worlds

Agreed, the difference in potential energy and velocity between the surface of different planets would be prohibitive.

 

[aramis]

Agreed, the difference in potential energy and velocity between the surface of different planets would be prohibitive.

Even orbit to orbit would.

 

[mike wightman]

I never mentioned potential energy, I am thinking along the lines of the total energy of a teleporter, which has to include their kinetic energy, and this is where relativity gets really complicated.

I am modelling this by thinking of how we describe a particle within a system (not solar system) in terms of internal energy - the combination of potential and kinetic energy at the molecular scale of things.

On a solar system scale if you are porting from planet to planet then you take account of the relative 'internal energy' of the two locations, the teleporter will have to either dump considerable energy or gain energy somehow.

Teleporting between systems means your reference frame shift to the galactic core as the centre and the kinetic energy factor of your 'internal' energy is now more dependent on the star/systems velocity through the galaxy.

 

[manypenguin]

After following people's train of thought, it would seem that one would have to activate a Black Globe for such a teleport to be practical. The rulebook explains that it stops all "gravitic" and "inertial" effects, but not "Psi," so I think that's how one ignores the mismatch in potential energy that could plague an otherwise unshielded psionic teleport.

 

[Panzerkraken]

I feel like too much concern about the real-world physics limitations of supernatural mind powers might be a bit ...limiting.

For a pseudo-scientific answer right on par with the existence of psionic powers, how about defining the use of the teleportation power as:

"the psion sees the area he desires to teleport to (using psi powers if necessary, as in the OP's example), then generates a quantum entanglement of himself (and whatever he's moving with him) at the target site, then exchanges the two sites."

Since he generated uncertainty about his position at the time of the teleportation, the exact measurement of his Ke and Pe would become uncertain (in order to fix his positions), and would correct based on the final location automatically.

Again, it's pseudo-scientific gobblegook, but we're talking about magic powers here anyway, it's just a question of plausibility.

 

[Grav_Moped]

It's Magic!

I feel like too much concern about the real-world physics limitations of supernatural mind powers might be a bit ...limiting.

For a pseudo-scientific answer right on par with the existence of psionic powers, how about defining the use of the teleportation power as:

"the psion sees the area he desires to teleport to (using psi powers if necessary, as in the OP's example), then generates a quantum entanglement of himself (and whatever he's moving with him) at the target site, then exchanges the two sites."

Since he generated uncertainty about his position at the time of the teleportation, the exact measurement of his Ke and Pe would become uncertain (in order to fix his positions), and would correct based on the final location automatically.

Again, it's pseudo-scientific gobblegook, but we're talking about magic powers here anyway, it's just a question of plausibility.

Exactly. It's magic. If you think it won't overpower your campaign, allow it and come up with suitable technobabble to explain it. If you think it will, either nerf it with selective application of real-world physics while coming up with technobabble as to why only those factors apply -- or just don't allow it at all.

But put on your Evil Referee Hat when evaluating it. Can you use it to inflict an unstoppable Total Party Kill on your players? Does it require making the teleporters out to be complete idiots in order to prevent that from happening?

If it's your players with this ability, what could challenge or stop them from galactic domination? If it makes them unstoppable, at the very least you need to nerf it to provide a challenge.

Have fun!

 

[Panzerkraken]

So, taking a step back from the extremes of the OP, I worked out what a "normal" human would be capable of, assuming it was tested as an infant and rolled maximum Psi, for an E (15) rating. Our budding young Navigator was then instructed in the ways of the Guild, learning Self 25, Direct 50, Remote 15. Pushing on to Second Stage, he learned Awareness 60 and Perception 30.

His ability to reach out his senses is now 15+60+25 = 100, or automatic out to R 16 (S 11), with a 50% success rate out to R 28 (S 23, or about 8 ly).

Moving to 3rd Stage, he knows he will be a Navigator, so he chooses Teleport 70, and being aware of the thermal issues, he takes E Shift 20.

When E-shifting for a ship, he has 15+50+20 = 95 - 49 (sz^2) =46, or automatic up to 7D.

(I confess, I'm not quite understanding the rules for that section.. it seems to imply that the difficulty is nD where n = damage (heat/cold) transferred? But it's a flat rate of Resist Heat/Cold - (E-shift) (in this case 20). So is that for every 20 points he has one die of difficulty?)

Moving on, though, he has Teleport 70 + 50 +15 = 135 -49 (sz^2) = 86.

Using a cautious roll, he can reach out to R 15 automatically, (S 10) meaning he can teleport the ship around most of the inner system without a roll. For longer jumps, he would need to roll, but again with a cautious roll he would have an ~80% chance of making a successful R 22 (S=17) roll. All that is assuming he's trying to move a Sz 7 ACS.

With a little more effort, he could possibly pull out the R=28 roll to reach as far as he can sense.

I kind of like the idea of having special people out there who can teleport the ships around.

Now, notably, it seems like they've done away with Psi points for using them? It looks like "If you fail, check 2D<END (or 1/2 C3) or move one level down the fatigue chart", which moves Psi characters out of the "oh, that's cute, you can do it what.. twice?" and into the Akira/Jean Grey range.

Edit: Ah, just noticed the fatigue requirement. "If you have to roll, roll fatigue when you use the power", which makes those automatic benchmarks pretty important.

 

[manypenguin]

I apologize for briefly resurrecting this, but it was pointed out that my math was slightly incorrect. I used values of 180 instead of 150. With the updated values, automatic remote viewing success still occurs, but the maximum ship size for automatic success becomes <9.487 instead of <10.954.