T5 Multiple Dice and Mutual Throws

[Supplement Four]

I've got a thought I want to discuss. I haven't thought this all the way through, but I wanted to throw it out on the stoop to see if the cat would lick it up.

I've been thinking a bit about the multi-dice T5 task system and the things I don't like about it.

What if...





What if the Ref always threw about half the dice of a task?

If difficulty is 1D or 2D, the player throws this. The task is considered simple enough that the player gets perfect knowledge about the outcome of his character's tasks.

But....at 3D and 4D, the Ref throws 1D or 2D behind the screen, never to be seen by the player.

So...the player knows the target and knows the result of the first two dice.

As the task gets harder, so does information and feedback about the task.

If it's a 3D task, the player throws 2D and the Ref 1D in secret.

If it's a 4D task, the player throws 2D and the Ref throws 2D.

If it's a 5D task, player 3D, Ref 2D.

If it's a 6D task, player 3D, Ref 3D.

And so on.





What I like about this is that it cancels out one of the things I hate about the system--that the player instantly knows if he passes for fails. In my games, I like the player finding out the situation not by looking at dice but by visualizing the drama and action through my descriptions.

In d20 games, I hardly ever tell players their target number. In D&D games (or in my Conan game), players don't know the exact AC of monsters or their enemy combatants. The can guess, based on what they see (type of armor) or by prior experience (I remember this monster has AC 16), but I'm OK with that.

There's so much drama in the game when the players roll dice but don't know the outcome. They're hanging on my every word to see what happens.

I find games much more fun that way.






With what I suggest above, the multi-dice system seems less like a multi-dice system (although I haven't changed the task system mechanics at all--just who is rolling what dice). Ref's are given that element of drama back in the game. And, I'm thinking that the Ref can use his roll for multiple functions. Automatically, almost every dice throw is "Uncertain". If the Ref is rolling, he can use the roll, or part of it, for Flux, if he needs it (Hit Location during combat). And the Ref will probably roll at least 2D more times than not because the TiH rule pops up a lot in the game.





What do you guys think about this?

Would this method make you like the system more? (No,it's still not higher is better....but, it does seem like a better way to run the task system.)

People who like the T5 system, does this idea intrigue you?

Is the idea worth anything?





EDIT: My idea is that the player will never know the outcome of the Ref dice. He'll just know his target and the two or three dice that he throws. The Ref will just tell him about the pass or fail (better yet, describe how the pass or fails occurs).

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm also thinking that this method could be used to change some of the rickety issues with Spectacular Failure, Spectacular Success system that the T5 task system currently uses.

I haven't thought about this, but I do believe a better system could be created for SS and SF if we only look at the dice the player throws. The Ref dice would not count towards it.

It'd be easy to come up with a good SS/SF system just looking at 2D or 3D. With my idea above, most of the time, the player will only be throwing two or three dice.

 

[Supplement Four]

Here's what I'm thinking...how this would work.



A task I read recently in the QREBS chapter is the IROAN task, where a tech attempts to keep an item or system from having its Reliability downgraded due to use (Inspect and Repair Only As Necessary).

The task in the book is:

To IROAN (1D Hours)
Average (2D) < Char + Skill + Quality Mod
Uncertain 1D if Skill < 6



Normally (under what I'm suggesting), the player would roll 2D and the Ref, nothing. But, because this task is tagged with the Uncertain note, the Player would throw 1D and the Ref 1D if the Character's skill is not 7+.

If the TiH rule applies, because the Character has Skill-1, the Player would throw 1D, and the Ref would throw 2D (because of the Uncertain note).

Without the Uncertain note (but with the TiH rule), the Player would throw 2D and the Ref would throw 1D.


I think I really like that, but I want to hear what you guys think.

 

[Supplement Four]

Maybe call this the communal version?

 

[Supplement Four]

Here's another example of how it would work.



The player makes a 3D Sensor task, and the TiH rule kicks in, making it a 4D throw. The Player is throwing 2D and the Ref is throwing 2D.

But, the Ref also decides to use the Scene Flux rule (see page 196). So, the 2D that the Ref uses is going to be used twice. The will throw two dice once, but he will use the results in different ways. First, the Ref will add his roll to the player's in order to determine if the Sensor task succeeds.

Using the exact same roll, the Ref then looks at the two dice as Flux, telling if, if the task fails, that the Player will have a Bad Day and may have to roll for Mishap outcomes.

Ref rolls once, but the dice pull double duty. Quick n Easy.





One last example: The Character is trying to hit a target at Range=4 in gun combat. The Character only has Skill-3, so the TiH rule kicks in. Therefore, the Player is throwing 3D and the Ref is throwing 2D.

When the Ref throws the two dice, he will first add them to the player's roll and then describe the outcome of the shot.

But, the two dice the Ref uses is also used as Flux to find Hit Location for the shot.

Again. Quick and Easy.



Thoughts?

 

[Supplement Four]

As far as NPC task throws go, this could be a help for the Ref AND involve the players.

When an NPC task comes up (like the NPCs firing at the players), the Ref has a choice. He can roll all the dice himself, or he can turn the tables on the players, involving them. The target of the shot could roll the dice that the Ref would normally roll for a player.

The player would, of course, root for rolling high, doing what they can to thwart the NPC shot. They're still just rolling dice, though, and I think it might be fun running combats this way.

Plus, it's less work for the Ref.

Again....these are just notes from brainstorming that I'm writing down.

What do you think. Does it move you at all?

 

[Ulsyus]

I like the way you're thinking on this. I've pretty much taken to rolling one uncertain dice for each task, so the players think about their target no. and what they rolled, then when they've done the maths they look a little more eager to hear about the result than just sit back and ask for the next challenge.

 

[whulorigan]

What if the Ref always threw about half the dice of a task?

If difficulty is 1D or 2D, the player throws this. The task is considered simple enough that the player gets perfect knowledge about the outcome of his character's tasks.

But....at 3D and 4D, the Ref throws 1D or 2D behind the screen, never to be seen by the player.

So...the player knows the target and knows the result of the first two dice.

As the task gets harder, so does information and feedback about the task.

If it's a 3D task, the player throws 2D and the Ref 1D in secret.

If it's a 4D task, the player throws 2D and the Ref throws 2D.

If it's a 5D task, player 3D, Ref 2D.

If it's a 6D task, player 3D, Ref 3D.

And so on.



What I like about this is that it cancels out one of the things I hate about the system--that the player instantly knows if he passes for fails. In my games, I like the player finding out the situation not by looking at dice but by visualizing the drama and action through my descriptions.

What do you guys think about this?

Is the idea worth anything?

EDIT: My idea is that the player will never know the outcome of the Ref dice. He'll just know his target and the two or three dice that he throws. The Ref will just tell him about the pass or fail (better yet, describe how the pass or fails occurs).

I think this is an interesting idea. You may want to consider upping the maximum number of dice a player throws from 2D to 3D, as this will put less burden on the GM. Most players should still have a fairly good idea of their success for a merely Difficult (3D) Task, I would think (unless it is defined as an Uncertain Task, of course), and I do not think throwing 3 dice is overly burdensome to the average player.

I'm also thinking that this method could be used to change some of the rickety issues with Spectacular Failure, Spectacular Success system that the T5 task system currently uses.

I haven't thought about this, but I do believe a better system could be created for SS and SF if we only look at the dice the player throws. The Ref dice would not count towards it.

It'd be easy to come up with a good SS/SF system just looking at 2D or 3D. With my idea above, most of the time, the player will only be throwing two or three dice.

I think this has potential. I'd like to hear more of your thoughts about this one. T4 used "All 1s" for Spectacular Success and "Two Sixes (regardless of # of dice)" for Spectacular Failure. Are you thinking along that line, or did you have something else in mind?

 

[robject]

I do this already, sometimes. It's an organic extension of the Uncertain die.

 

[aramis]

I found it far more work when doing it under T4 for very little gain in play value.

It did absolutely nothing to assuage my player's disdain for the task system.

 

[Supplement Four]

I found it far more work when doing it under T4 for very little gain in play value.

It did absolutely nothing to assuage my player's disdain for the task system.

I agree that T5 would be better served with a different task system, and I can't think of too many other games where I've disliked the main mechanic as much as this one.

But, I'm just trying to keep an open mind and maybe find something that I can live with.

 

[Ulsyus]

Which games' task systems did you prefer to T5s?

 

[Supplement Four]

For Traveller?

I'd like T5 to have a 2D system, roll high, that is similar to the UTP of MT, the UGM that I designed, or the system MgT uses.

I think the T5 task system is needlessly fussy. The benefits gained from all the work that goes into counting dice and modifiers could easily be gained from a system that is more simple.

 

[Supplement Four]

@Ulsyus

It's not that I don't like multi-dice systems. I like them fine. Star Wars D6 is one of the most well written set of mechanics I've ever seen. Quick-n-easy, yet detailed enough for role playing.

The problem I have with the T5 system is that it requires too much figuring. It's too fussy. Characteristic + Skill. Then, usually, a flux type modifier, that requires math by itself, applies, like the Apparent Size modifier used in combat. Then, figure in the This is Hard rule, if necessary.

Then, we roll a hand full of dice, usually 3D-6D, add all those up...

All that just to tell if a hit was made, when a simple 2D throw, plus modifiers, could do the same job.

Add to this the problem that the T5 system does not make it easy or intuitive to hide targets for players in order to increase task drama in the game--

--I'd rather have a task system that does the job better.