Psion Population

[Icosahedron]

Any ideas on the proportion of psionic adepts in a typical human population? I'm starting a psi campaign and I need to figure how many psions I might find in a given community - good ones, bad ones and latents in the general population.
'Official' figures or guesstimates welcome.

 

[ThunderChilde]

If its an active Psi society and not a rigid class society like the Zho's, perhpas as much as 70% have atleast some usable PSI potential according to the rules, assuming testing is done as part of the basic education process.

Smaller proportions will have moderate potential, and fewer still high potential. Just compare the rules to the bell curve for 2-d6. That is if you take a hard rule indexed portion of the pop.

YMMV

 

[Icosahedron]

Hmm, I've always taken the chargen rules to be heavily skewed toward PCs. I doubt whether those figures would apply to the population in general.

I can't see 70% of the population being psionic, we ain't got that many who're literate.

 

[fiat_knox]

I wouldn't make the figure 70%. Not trained psions anyway. More like 7%. 0.7% if the population is large.

 

[far-trader]

One opinion...

Depends on the societal view of Psionics to a large part (already presuming the rules for Psionics are informative).

So in the Imperium post Psionic Suppressions, while the incidence of psi potential is the same the ability and desire to pursue it is far far far etc lower.

I may have goofed the odds and such below but it should be ballpark anyway. If anyone spots errors by all means correct them, I'll try to show my work to make the error points easier to spot.

Per CT let's start with the psi potential then. Even accept that the char gen rules inform for the entire population. That means everyone has potential (2D6), at least Psr2 and as high as Psr12. So we start with 100%.

So let's find an Institute and get tested and trained. Without testing and training that potential drops at 1 point per 4 years. And without training potential is nothing (except towards your desire to know the potential pool).

Our first wrinkle, we need a world with Pop 9+ (2D6-2) to have a chance of having an Institute. So our Psionic hopefuls have to be on the remaining 5.56% of worlds to hope to find an Institute. We've now cut our likely Psi population down to the same 5.56%, right?

But not all such worlds actually have an Institute. Just 5.56% to 8.33% of them. So let's take an average of that (because I'm lazy and rushed ;-) )... 6.945% and apply it to our 5.56% above. And we're down to around 0.386%... and we still need to actually FIND the Institute.

Finding the Institute (making contact with paranoid, persecuted, super secret society, in genuine fear for their very lives) is no easy task. We have at least a 27.78% chance (possibly higher if we have some Streetwise and Admin skill). Let's be generous and say our psi potentials average a skill bonus of +5 over the spectrum. So we have a 91.67% chance of finding the Institute (because our psi potentials are motivated). Still our current odds are lowered again, to about 0.354%

We'll also be generous and presume our psi potential aren't going to let a little thing like the Institute actually not being in downtown Metro and requiring a long trip to some remote part of the world stop them. Nor will we expect them to not have the Cr5000 for testing. It's a lot of creds, but not a fortune.

The training on the other hand is very costly (barring a gifted Psion getting a scholarship) at Cr100,000. I think that is going to reduce the psi potential pool significantly. In fact I'd say if you can't qualify for the scholarship you're unlikely to get training. So let's use that, Psr 9+ (27.78%) as the odds of getting trained. But being generous I'm not going to apply any aging reduction. So our psi potential pool is down to around 0.098%. Pretty slim. And we still haven't actually got any talents.

So, what about those talents? Well the odds again are more complicated than I care to get deeply into so let's just fudge a quick best case based on the 6+ roll for Telepathy taken first. That's odds of 72.22% and puts our psi potential pool at about 0.071% of the total population.

Around 4.75 million functional Psions on Earth at our current population of about 6.785 billion. That's a lot of freaking telepaths!



I'm uncomfortable with that kind of percentage, but as noted it based on PC generation. For PC generation it's not a bad number. For NPC or total population estimation I think you need to factor in a 1000 fold reduction at least. So just some 4,750 genuine telepaths on Earth.

Or something like that.

 

[robject]

Any ideas on the proportion of psionic adepts in a typical human population? I'm starting a psi campaign and I need to figure how many psions I might find in a given community - good ones, bad ones and latents in the general population.
'Official' figures or guesstimates welcome.

As Dan "Far-Trader" noted, even a tiny percentage results in millions of adepts; given the Imperium, and given that chargen is not for typical people but, rather, Travellers, we just rely on canon, which simply states that Institutes are hidden due to being illegal and unpopular or whatnot.

So they're like Secret Societies. Is everyone in on them? No. Are most people aware of them? No. Are they a very small, persecuted lot? You bet.

Expect to have one PI per "large city", right? So one person per million, perhaps. Tune it to your preference.

But all this really means is that Psionic Institutes are referee's events to impose at the speed of plot. They're the pots of gold at the end of a rainbow, rather than something players can scientifically discover through brute force.

You can have populations vary wildly from city to city, and world to world.

And -- to make this manageable to the referee -- they're probably not much in contact with each other. So one hand may not know what the other hand is doing.

 

[Icosahedron]

Cheers guys, that figure of one in a million (give or take a couple of dice throws) feels like a reasonable number.

I agree about the plot device thing. My game involves psions chasing psions and I needed a ballpark figure to estimate how many individuals the foxes and hounds might recruit from the planetary population and how many frightened rabbits are keeping a low profile.

So, with a pop of 7x10^7, we're perhaps looking at 50 to 100 psions on world, by no means all of whom will have been discovered. So feasibly, each team might only have say 5 - 10 individuals, and each talent might only be represented by 1 or 2 psions, quite possibly none, while a further 70-90 potential recruits remain hidden.

That's the sort of data I was looking for and it fits the game quite well. Thanks guys.

Coincidentally, that's about the population of the UK. Hmm...

 

[far-trader]

Don't forget those potential recruits span the age range for that population as well. So some will be newborns, some will be aged. And in both those extremes the usefulness will be practically zero. Until developed with maturity in the newborns and very young, and already too late to train in the aged due to the steady decline of Psr.

 

[Icosahedron]

True enough, so that will halve the useful psi pop again.

 

[robject]

[...]So feasibly, each team might only have say 5 - 10 individuals[...]

Sounds a bit like a squad, or a pair of fire teams, doesn't it?

 

[far-trader]

...So feasibly, each team might only have say 5 - 10 individuals

Sounds a bit like a squad, or a pair of fire teams, doesn't it?

Or a group of players with one or two characters each

I've long figured the Psionic Institutes of the CT post PS universe would be organized like other underground groups. As cells. They'd be hard to find and crack (duh, they have telepaths, they can tell if you're lying and setting a trap, most of the time). Much of the time and reason you can't find them is because they don't feel they can trust you, maybe because somebody else is watching you. I also figure a failed Psionic Institute search is a good chance at the searcher being mobbed as "ONE OF THEM!" and I get to roll on the "Table of Fun!" (aka the public prejudice penalties).

...hey, there's another data point, sort of, for what it's worth. "Some hirelings or citizens may have psionic training or ability (roll 12 to have any ability; then determine the actual ability). There is an equal chance that the non-character will be an informant or potential informant." From: CT Book 3 - pg 46 - Public Prejudice

 

[fiat_knox]

...hey, there's another data point, sort of, for what it's worth. "Some hirelings or citizens may have psionic training or ability (roll 12 to have any ability; then determine the actual ability). There is an equal chance that the non-character will be an informant or potential informant." From: CT Book 3 - pg 46 - Public Prejudice

On that last part, there's always going to be some guy who, when faced with the choice between doing something nasty and sneaky and doing something right, will put his career and status in society first and rat out the characters. There could even be a psion who is all too willing to divert public attention to the characters so that he can remain firmly in the closet where he can continue to make a lot of money as the local blackmailer, thank you very much.

The best Referees have whole stables full of such dastards.

 

[Icosahedron]

Or a group of players with one or two characters each

Yeah, a team or squad - like I said, useful for the game.

I've long figured the Psionic Institutes of the CT post PS universe would be organized like other underground groups. As cells. They'd be hard to find and crack (duh, they have telepaths, they can tell if you're lying and setting a trap, most of the time). Much of the time and reason you can't find them is because they don't feel they can trust you, maybe because somebody else is watching you. I also figure a failed Psionic Institute search is a good chance at the searcher being mobbed as "ONE OF THEM!" and I get to roll on the "Table of Fun!" (aka the public prejudice penalties).

The flip side is that psions may be tasked with rooting out the institutes. Cells might not be so hard to crack if you're using telepathy or clairvoyance to find them...
I'm sure my 'table of fun' will not be gathering any dust. Nor will my list of dastards

...hey, there's another data point, sort of, for what it's worth. "Some hirelings or citizens may have psionic training or ability (roll 12 to have any ability; then determine the actual ability). There is an equal chance that the non-character will be an informant or potential informant." From: CT Book 3 - pg 46 - Public Prejudice

Yes, I'm sure both sides will have sympathisers and informants.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I may have goofed the odds and such below but it should be ballpark anyway. If anyone spots errors by all means correct them, I'll try to show my work to make the error points easier to spot.

Our first wrinkle, we need a world with Pop 9+ (2D6-2) to have a chance of having an Institute. So our Psionic hopefuls have to be on the remaining 5.56% of worlds to hope to find an Institute. We've now cut our likely Psi population down to the same 5.56%, right?

I believe you are using 5.56% as the total percentage of Pop 9+ worlds? I don't believe this should be the same as population. You'd have to crunch numbers, but these high population worlds have a higher percentage of the total population than 5.56%.

Next, why couldn't Psionic hopefuls travel from their homeworld to worlds that might have a chance of having an Institute.

So, I think the percentage at this point would be quite high. Some circumstances would still reduce this. For example, people with a lack of funds or other reasons they would not travel.

But not all such worlds actually have an Institute. Just 5.56% to 8.33% of them. So let's take an average of that (because I'm lazy and rushed ;-) )... 6.945% and apply it to our 5.56% above. And we're down to around 0.386%... and we still need to actually FIND the Institute.

Finding the Institute (making contact with paranoid, persecuted, super secret society, in genuine fear for their very lives) is no easy task. We have at least a 27.78% chance (possibly higher if we have some Streetwise and Admin skill). Let's be generous and say our psi potentials average a skill bonus of +5 over the spectrum. So we have a 91.67% chance of finding the Institute (because our psi potentials are motivated). Still our current odds are lowered again, to about 0.354%

We'll also be generous and presume our psi potential aren't going to let a little thing like the Institute actually not being in downtown Metro and requiring a long trip to some remote part of the world stop them.

Nor do I think they would limit their search to just one world. Why can't they search multiple worlds, and keep searching until they find one?

Icosahedron, I think the numbers would vary a bit depending on location. Perhaps an analysis of the proportion on a world with an institute vs a world without (even if the general population is not aware of it, this world would have a higher % than a world with no institute, yes?). Would Psi's tend to 'hide' on lower population, more isolated worlds or would they try to blend in on higher population worlds on major trade routes, or would they stay on a world with a Psi institute, other PSi's, and a secret society for support?

 

[aramis]

figuring per 36 worlds...
Pop 10 worlds are 1/36 of worlds, and average 5E10 pop
Pop 9 worlds are 2/36 of worlds, averaging 5E9...
so they are together, about 6E10 pop.
Pop 8 are 3/36, at 5E8, making about 1.5E9. Total so far about 6.15E10
Pop 7 are 4/36 at 5E7, making abut 2E8, 0.02E10... total about 6.17E10
Pop 6 are 5/36 at 5E6... for 2.5E7 ttal about 6.195
Roughly, Pop 9+ is 11/12 of the population.. or around 91.6% of the total population.
Pop 10 worlds are about 83% of the total imperial population...

 

[ThunderChilde]

Heading Off Topic, Fair Warning!

I can't count the times I've heard the arguement that PC's are just every day Joe's in unusual circumstances. NPC's are generated using the exact same chargen. That being the case, the Imperium is brimming with latent Psi's all over the place. I personally don't think a school is required to develop some use of talent, but is damn handy to develop high functionality.

Someone had to figure it out on thier own, in order for there to be a body of knowledge allowing PSi Institues to exist in the first place. Personally I think independent Psi's are far more common under theese conditions than formally trained PSi's.

It's a chain of thought, chicken and egg, something had to come before full fledged schools.

For the record, I am firmly in the PC's as standing out from and above the general population.

 

[Max]

Per Book A (Psionic Institutes) of T4, there were @1 million psionicist members of the Psionics Club alone, these drawn from the Sylean Federation with a population @30 billion at the founding of the 3I, well before the suppressions. The same source says of societies which have fully integrated psionics

The government utilizes psionics as a component of its daily functions. Psionic powers are used to interrogate prisoners, as a routine part of negotiations, employment screening, etc.

which would require a fairly large psionicly able population. T4 = cannon?

....
Latents are tough to talk about, the rules establish that without training it doesn't matter how strong psi potential is, untrained psis are treated just like someone with a 0 psi strength. I think there would be a lot more latents than 1 in a million however they would be unusable in your campaign and I'd rule undetectable since they are not using psi powers. Recruits would be not from latents but from those who have managed to self-train enough to develop their potential, not as well as if they had been trained at an institute which knows how to develop psionics but enough to be psionically active to some degree. More of a flavor thing, but it also allows you to fudge the number of potential recruits on a given planet easily.

I expect there to more good guy psions than bad guy psions, you need training to be an effective psion and the people who can provide that training can read minds, they'd have to have a reason to train a bad guy. Not to say that there would be no bad guy psions, but there should be more good guys.

 

[Icosahedron]

Heading Off Topic, Fair Warning!

I can't count the times I've heard the arguement that PC's are just every day Joe's in unusual circumstances. NPC's are generated using the exact same chargen. That being the case, the Imperium is brimming with latent Psi's all over the place. I personally don't think a school is required to develop some use of talent, but is damn handy to develop high functionality.

Someone had to figure it out on thier own, in order for there to be a body of knowledge allowing PSi Institues to exist in the first place. Personally I think independent Psi's are far more common under theese conditions than formally trained PSi's.

It's a chain of thought, chicken and egg, something had to come before full fledged schools.

For the record, I am firmly in the PC's as standing out from and above the general population.

I think we're still reasonably on-topic, TC. I agree, PCs are extraordinary. I tend to generate PCs using LBB4+ and NPCs from LBB1 and Supp4, thereby giving PCs a natural edge. Everyday Joes would drop like flies in some of the circumstances I get them into. :devil:
As I said upthread, I think the psi chargen is not designed to calculate psi numbers in the general population - not unless you subscribe to the theory that almost everyone is a latent psi.
One in a million is a round figure that suits my game, so I'll probably go with that. I'm just picking up chrome now.
I agree that self-development is possible - it's an integral part of my plot.

 

[Icosahedron]

Per Book A (Psionic Institutes) of T4, there were @1 million psionicist members of the Psionics Club alone, these drawn from the Sylean Federation with a population @30 billion at the founding of the 3I, well before the suppressions. The same source says of societies which have fully integrated psionics which would require a fairly large psionicly able population. T4 = cannon?

So T4 suggests 1 in 30k or 30 in a million? 1800 in the UK. 180k Earthwide. Not beyond the realms of possibility, certainly for latents.

....
Latents are tough to talk about, the rules establish that without training it doesn't matter how strong psi potential is, untrained psis are treated just like someone with a 0 psi strength. I think there would be a lot more latents than 1 in a million however they would be unusable in your campaign and I'd rule undetectable since they are not using psi powers. Recruits would be not from latents but from those who have managed to self-train enough to develop their potential, not as well as if they had been trained at an institute which knows how to develop psionics but enough to be psionically active to some degree. More of a flavor thing, but it also allows you to fudge the number of potential recruits on a given planet easily.

True.

I expect there to more good guy psions than bad guy psions, you need training to be an effective psion and the people who can provide that training can read minds, they'd have to have a reason to train a bad guy. Not to say that there would be no bad guy psions, but there should be more good guys.

Hmm, not necessarily. I think there would be a lot of shades of grey. I can see black ops outfits from every government under 11,000 suns training their own, with all the intrigue of double and triple agents, renegades, mercenaries, religious fanatics, etc. Not to mention the theory that power corrupts, and psions will be subject to a lot of temptations to misuse their power. (Mr Vader being a prime example).
I'm not saying there would be no good guy psions, but...

 

[Max]

Hmm, not necessarily. I think there would be a lot of shades of grey. I can see black ops outfits from every government under 11,000 suns training their own, with all the intrigue of double and triple agents, renegades, mercenaries, religious fanatics, etc. Not to mention the theory that power corrupts, and psions will be subject to a lot of temptations to misuse their power. (Mr Vader being a prime example).
I'm not saying there would be no good guy psions, but..

I see a lot of grey too but still think the mere fact that people who can provide the training can read minds will lead to fewer blackhats. Bad guys will train as few bad guys as possible because every bad guy psion that they train has to be controled or is a potential threat and competitor. Good guys can train anyone good who comes to them because they are not potential threats to the trainers. There is no code among blackhats which says blackhats don't harm other blackhats while whitehats by their very nature do not harm other whitehats.


Power corrupts but when you can read minds you can weed out those easily corrupted; not all, but the Jedi wouldn't have trained Vader if they had strong enough evidence he was going to turn out the way he did. Likewise governments with psionics training programs are not going to train people in psionics who going to go rogue at the drop of a hat. There might also be groups which will provide training to anyone who is capable regardless of what they intend to do with the training, feeling that the important thing is to spread the knowledge of psionics, but in a post-supressions Imperium they have a limited life, they will eventually train a blackhat who will set the mobs on them in order to prevent them from training rivals to that blackhat.