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Honor Harrington

I enjoyed Weber's work once, but it's chopped full of his particular conservative political view. In other words, nobody in the military can do any wrong, unless they hold political ambitions. And no politician can do any good, unless they are super hawks. The Conservative Party is the group of politicians who act for the selfless benefit of society, and all of their members are paragons of civic virtue. The Liberal Progressive Party "Lib Progs" members are all ignorant, disdainful, treasonous, racist, and shrilly annoying. It's funny but when I first read the Terran Federation series in jr. high school, I simply enjoyed the space combat aspects. It's only later that I realized just how blatant his political posturing is. Especially Insurrection, which is also absurd on plot grounds. These are very much not my views, but even if they were, I think I would still find their omnipresent and rather primitive depiction unappealing.

As far as Honor Harrington goes, again when I was younger I much enjoyed the series. Now I find the character rather thin and sort of absurd. She's the highest ranking person in like 9 navies, queen of some planet, one of like 3 humans in history to have befriended some psychic cat thing, an expert markswoman, swordswoman, and eight degree black belt. The finest military strategist just about ever. All of her subordinates worship her, and thanks to her leadership and example they are now awesome too. She is endowed with preternatural strength, speed, and intellect. Despite her supreme perfection, she is down-to-earth and approachable, treating everyone kindly and fairly. Each and every week she stares down a threat to intergalactic civilization at seemingly great, though often actually meaningless, personal cost. She emerges from every challenge with a promotion, a new title, more adoring servants, another supremely accomplished skill, and the thanks of the entire universe. Oh, and yeah, she's absurdly hot too.

The really sad thing about it? There's not nearly as much hyperbole in that description as you might think. Check out her wikipedia page.

A little bit too much perfection for my taste. I condemn no one who likes her or the series, but in my mind, she's the poster child for how to not make interesting characters.
 
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LeperColony,
You forgot to mention that due to the longivity drugs, she started looking like a teenager and now only looks like hot 25 yr old even though she what 60 now.

So, she will be around for a long, long, long time, since it seems that she can't be killed.

Dave Chase
 
LeperColony,
You forgot to mention that due to the longivity drugs, she started looking like a teenager and now only looks like hot 25 yr old even though she what 60 now.

So, she will be around for a long, long, long time, since it seems that she can't be killed.

Dave Chase

I did forget that Dave, which I really shouldn't because all of his main female characters are like that in every book. The admiral woman from In Death Ground comes to mind. In fact, Harrington is really just Weber's women on steroids.

HH is literally, not figuratively, but literally just 2-3 books away from feeding the multitudes and raising the dead.
 
No historical figure, not even Alexander the Great or Leonardo di Vinci comes particularly close to being as perfect as she is.
I don't think Honor Harrington is a great literary character, certainly not on a par with Jack Aubrey, Steven Maturin, and Richard Delancy, but she's not bad either. She's far from perfect; she's grander than Hormblower and his ilk because the scale she operates on is grander than the Napoleonic Wars, that's all.

Weber had planned to kill her off in the Battle of Manticore and have the whole Solarian League mess come to a boil in time for her children to play a major role, but Eric Flint's contributions to the setting made him change his mind. I expect she will increasingly step back into the background in favor of other characters, but of course Weber will have to use her for the really big battles now that she remains alive.


Hans
 
I don't want to turn this into Honor bashing, because I know naturally people who like the series will feel the need to defend it, and I malign nobody for their preferences, even when they very much aren't mine. But in my opinion, she long crossed the line from legitimate "larger-than-life" hero and into pure Mary Sue-dom. Let's list her accomplishments and compare them to Horatio Nelson:

Rank:
HH: Full Admiral in two fleets
HN: Vice Admiral of the White in one.

Titles:
HH: Duchess in her own right in Manticore. First female steadholder of Grayson, ever. Arguably Countess White Haven. The only living Star of Grayson, and the first person in 600 years to win it twice. She is the third highest person in Manticore's peerage.
HN: Viscount and Baron in the UK, Duke in Sicily. Order of the Bath.

Personal Qualities:
HH: Super fast, strong, and smart. Capable of PhD level physics in her head in the heat of battle. Extended life span, of primary importance so she can be hot essentially forever. The most gorgeous woman of her generation. Military genius. Sublime leader. Supreme swordswoman, markswoman, and eigth degree black belt. One of few treecat adoptees, and virtually the only one to be adopted in childhood. Now a recognized authority on treecats. Two classes of ships named after her, though Manticore changed it when she was revealed to be alive. Apparently some huge statue was built to honor her in Grayson. Approachable and kind to all, regardless of rank or stature. Suffers Nelsonian injuries, but they really don't mean anything since she has sci-fi medicine, so really they (and her minor flaws like being bad at simple math sometimes) are just meant to endear.
HN: Military genius. Sublime leader. Sort of handsome, though in real life I doubt he looked (or smelled, it being the early 19th century) so good as his portrait, what with his glass eye and missing arm. Kind of whiney about being made a baron. Many believe he was self-promoting and ambitious. Cheated on his wife.

Seriously? And I'm just getting this from her Wikipedia page. I am no expert in HH. If I read the books still, I'm sure I could mine even more absurdities.
 
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I almost shudder to imagine Honor Harrington's UPP...

Actually, let's see. Super strong, smart, and fast.

AC9BA-?-F

That seem possible? Maybe even G for social, since she is the 3rd highest ranking Manticoran.
 
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She is the third highest person in Manticore's peerage.

I don't see how the Wiki article writers got this... she is only one of several Dukes or Duchesses, and there are several members of the Royal Family who are above any of the Dukes or Duchesses... Michelle Henke, for one. While junior to HH in Naval rank, she is in direct line to the throne, and considered above HH in the peerage (despite being "only" a Countess) due to her being a part of the Royal lineage.


One of few treecat adoptees, and virtually the only one to be adopted in childhood.

Not really... treecat adoptions had been going on for centuries, and she runs into at least 3 other adoptees just in the Manticoran Navy.

The total number of adoptions by the time she and Nimitz bonded were nearing (if not exceeding) 10,000 since her ancestor Stephanie Harrington formed the very first adopted pair (also as a teenager). Granted, the vast majority of these had been with Sphinxian natives who never left the planet.

Among Sphinxian residents adoption in childhood is nearly as common as adult adoptions.


I'll grant you that Weber did start getting carried away... starting about the time she survived her time on the Peep prison planet.

Note however that her survival to get onto the planet was nearly totally the result of the actions of others... they broke her out of the brig, and destroyed the ship in the process of escaping... carrying her as unconscious baggage.

I personally wouldn't call losing an arm and an eye (deja-vu) without being able to regenerate them "insignificant" ... although bionic prosthetics do tend to compensate, they can be damaged or "turned off" (as happened to hers on more than one occasion).


All in all, she has more flaws and problems than her detractors admit exist... and the explanations (or justifications) for her positive qualities and achievements are fully thought-out (if excessively-concentrated into one individual).



However, I have read sci-fi novels and series by other authors which have at least as unrealistic a main protagonist as HH... but I don't seem to see anyone disparaging them. perhaps they were published too long ago (1970s-80s, mostly).

A few years ago (before the last board move) this same repetitive HH-bashing was going on... at that time those doing the bashing seemed to always include the term "ultra-competent female" as the most negative label they could come up with.

I pointed out a couple of the male protagonists who share the same characteristic of being "hyper-competent, physically & mentally superior to all around, etc" and they basically said they weren't bothered by them... just by HH.

I am glad to see that this time at least, no one is making that gender-distinction in their diatribes.
 
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I almost shudder to imagine Honor Harrington's UPP...

Actually, let's see. Super strong, smart, and fast.

AC9BA-?-F

That seem possible? Maybe even G for social, since she is the 3rd highest ranking Manticoran.

Skill listing

Name..... Lvl
All......... 4


;)

Dave Chase
 
My reason for giving up the HH series was because of all the high-level politicking going on after HH got back from the prison planet. That and having her fall in love and get married to that guy.

I just think that at some point he's going to have to give up the series.




As an aside, he is writing a book for teens based around Stephanie Harrington and her treecat.
 
The 3rd highest noble came from one of the later books. Don't remember which one, but it is stated in there that she ranked Whitehaven.

My reasons for giving up on HH was not the character so much as the increasingly bad writing style. Weber just began running over with bad hyperole and very flowery phrasing and just completely out of hand. Very much like Amanda McKittrick Ros.

The first book - On Basilisk Station - is 461 pages in paperback form while War of Honor is 929 pages. That describes my issue with Weber's writing in a nutshell.
 
My reasons for giving up on HH was not the character so much as the increasingly bad writing style. Weber just began running over with bad hyperole and very flowery phrasing and just completely out of hand. Very much like Amanda McKittrick Ros.
What I like to refer to as Succesful Author Syndrome. Can happen when an author becomes too succesful for editors to correct them. A few succesful authors seem immune, but a lot succumb to it. (All this is, of course, completely unsupported speculation on my part; perhaps the reason is something else entirely, but I like my assumption ;)).


Hans
 
I don't see how the Wiki article writers got this... she is only one of several Dukes or Duchesses, and there are several members of the Royal Family who are above any of the Dukes or Duchesses... Michelle Henke, for one. While junior to HH in Naval rank, she is in direct line to the throne, and considered above HH in the peerage (despite being "only" a Countess) due to her being a part of the Royal lineage.

Unless a member of the royal household also has a peerage, they don't rank among the peers. That's one reason British heirs and royal family members are granted the title of Duke. HH can certainly rank above members of the royal family. However, the wiki writer very well may have meant third in Manticoran peerage.




Not really... treecat adoptions had been going on for centuries, and she runs into at least 3 other adoptees just in the Manticoran Navy.

The total number of adoptions by the time she and Nimitz bonded were nearing (if not exceeding) 10,000 since her ancestor Stephanie Harrington formed the very first adopted pair (also as a teenager). Granted, the vast majority of these had been with Sphinxian natives who never left the planet.

Among Sphinxian residents adoption in childhood is nearly as common as adult adoptions.

Treecat adoptions are rarer than one in a million. I quote here from the Honor Harrington wikia at http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Treecat

"The initial bonding rate was rather less than one human in 1 million, and has decreased with the increase of Sphinx' human population. Humans might be of nearly any age from child to adult when "adopted", though few human children actually were adopted....The most common age for humans was between 25 and 35."

I personally wouldn't call losing an arm and an eye (deja-vu) without being able to regenerate them "insignificant" ... although bionic prosthetics do tend to compensate, they can be damaged or "turned off" (as happened to hers on more than one occasion).

I wouldn't call it insignificant in real life. I wouldn't call it insignificant in a setting where the loss is omnipresent. I would call it insignificant where losing an eye and an arm do not prevent her from being the greatest swordswoman, markswoman, and black beltwoman of her age. Oh, and let's not forget, it doesn't detract from her legendary beauty. These, and her other minor imperfections, are what are known as endearing flaws. They aren't actually even meant as flaws, but instead as a means of humanizing what would otherwise be a goddess, and therefore to make her more relateable and, in the crude terms of wish fulfillment, obtainable.

Heroes are meant to have flaws. The Greeks believed that was an essential element to them. Heracles had a number of incredible traits and adventures too. But he also flew into rages and murdered people for no real reason.


All in all, she has more flaws and problems than her detractors admit exist... and the explanations (or justifications) for her positive qualities and achievements are fully thought-out (if excessively-concentrated into one individual).

While completely disagreeing that Weber's explanations are "fully thought-out," you have actually hit on the central Mary-Sue problem, if inadvertently, when you said "excessively-concentrated into one individual." That is the problem here.

Have there been:

Military Geniuses?
Expert Markswomen?
Expert Swordswomen?
Eighth Degree Blackbelts?
Preternaturally strong, fast, and smart women?
People with extended life spans that allow them to retain their youthful appearance?
Beautiful women?
High ranking peers?
Admirals (in two navies...)?
People with very rare pets that grant them pseudo-psychic abilities?
Really decent people who disdain underhandedness and politicking, who treat everyone fairly, honestly, and kindly?

Yes, there have been all these things, some in real life, and all of them in fiction. It's the combination of all of them into one person that is absurd. Really, how does she even find the time to do all these things?

However, I have read sci-fi novels and series by other authors which have at least as unrealistic a main protagonist as HH... but I don't seem to see anyone disparaging them. perhaps they were published too long ago (1970s-80s, mostly).

Maybe because this was a thread about HH. Also, the claim isn't that HH is the most absurd character ever. It is no defense of HH to find someone worse, and I do not doubt that such a person can be found. She remains a Mary-Sue, no matter how many other Mary Sues or Gary Stus went before her.

A few years ago (before the last board move) this same repetitive HH-bashing was going on... at that time those doing the bashing seemed to always include the term "ultra-competent female" as the most negative label they could come up with.

I pointed out a couple of the male protagonists who share the same characteristic of being "hyper-competent, physically & mentally superior to all around, etc" and they basically said they weren't bothered by them... just by HH.

I am glad to see that this time at least, no one is making that gender-distinction in their diatribes.

That she is a woman doesn't make her character any more or less realistic to me, and I've generally considered it a red herring similar to inappropriate uses of race in discussions (in unflattering but simplistic terms, the race card).

To me, she is a woman because she is a vessel for Weber's wish fulfillment, and because the (presumably) mostly-male audience for military sci-fi likes to imagine this hot duchess-admiral-swordswoman-markswoman-eighth degree black belt in the buff.
 
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Writers get paid by the word, and publishing houses make more money with a thicker book that doesn't cost that much more to print, but can have a 2-3 dollar markup on the price (especially in the paperback).
 
Which is, unfortunately, a prime contributor (along with Ranke2's "Successful Author Syndrome") to Weber's increasing "diarrhea of the word processor"... which is my worst complaint about the HH novels.

In his last 4 or so novels in the series he has done such extensive overlap with events covered in the other books... often from the same point-of-view by the same characters... that easily 25% of each book could have been cut out en-masse without losing anything.

And that's before we get to Bill Downs' justified complaint of "bad hyperole and very flowery phrasing"... which could remove another 10% or so of the word-count.


I still enjoy the books, especially those centered on other people, but it IS getting harder to wade through the excesses to uncover the story underneath.


And yes, LC... my statement of "excessively-concentrated into one individual" WAS intentional... and intended as a criticism of how the character of HH has been developed.
 
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I WAS looking forward to the next book coming out in March, but now.....

....tear slips down face......


Really though, I too enjoyed the early books, kind of prefered the setting/background info for the middle series, got confused with the Eric Flint/Shadow of Saganami/ HH split, Now interested in seeing how the three series integrate into a "canon" HH universe.

Could they be better? Probably. Are they good background for a Traveller type setting? Yes.
Are people confused by the multiple theme background? Oh yeah.

I thought that HH was the third highest MILITARY RANKED officer. Not 3rd ranked in the peerage. Of course I've been studying hermeneutics, so I tend to catch things like that, while someone who miss reads put it on WIKI as fact.
 
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