Particle Detector

[kilemall]

Reviewing the classic suite of Traveller sensor types across all manner of EM wavelengths and detection, it struck me that there wasn't really a particle detector.

The neutrino detector was one specialized type of course, but I'm thinking you would have a hard time detecting radiation, following ion trails, analyzing atmospheres, etc.

A solar flare should be a big EM/IR event that radar, EMF and/or thermals should pick up, so don't know that you need particle detectors for that other then lab/scout ships, but other colder/ smaller phenomena would benefit.

Am I on track here?


Side question, for fire direction , would PA or energy weapon active emitters be of use? I'm thinking they may be helpful if a target uses a lot of sand against lidar or chaff for radar.

 

[Enoki]

A neutrino detector might be a very large piece of gear, but certainly detectors for radiation would be easily had and quite compact I'd think. The interesting one would be a gravity detector. That is something that can measure gravity waves and disturbances in those. Ones for radiation, particularly gamma and neutron radiation I'd think would be standard equipment on any ship. You really wouldn't want to enter a location in space where either of those were present in massive quantities. Even with shielding, at some point the remnants getting through would be dangerous.

After all, the game does have gravetic drives, grav plates, etc. So, it's obvious that the technology to alter gravity and produce it artificially exists. I'd think you'd have a detector that could find and measure it too.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

A standard Geiger counter can detect beta particles and gamma radiation. A scintillation counter can detect alpha and beta particles. Both can detect cosmic radiation, which is really a shower of high-velocity heavy nuclei. Various “cloud” chambers can detect more exotic particles, as well. A particle physicist could tell you more, and likely be more accurate.

From LBB3: “Radiation Counter (TL5) Cr250. lndicates presence and intensity of radioactivity. Weighs 1 kg.”

It would not take much hand-waving to say that this device is so refined after 3500+ years that it can not only indicate presence and intensity, but types of radiation, as well, especially at higher tech levels. The operation would be similar to an atmospheric tester from “Shadows”.

 

[kilemall]

A neutrino detector might be a very large piece of gear, but certainly detectors for radiation would be easily had and quite compact I'd think. The interesting one would be a gravity detector. That is something that can measure gravity waves and disturbances in those. Ones for radiation, particularly gamma and neutron radiation I'd think would be standard equipment on any ship. You really wouldn't want to enter a location in space where either of those were present in massive quantities. Even with shielding, at some point the remnants getting through would be dangerous.

After all, the game does have gravetic drives, grav plates, etc. So, it's obvious that the technology to alter gravity and produce it artificially exists. I'd think you'd have a detector that could find and measure it too.

Mass detectors for homing missiles and densitometers, essentially being able to get an inner passive picture of a ship/base/ building at higher tech levels has been in the game for a long time, so I feel that's covered. But particle detection, not so much.

 

[kilemall]

Keklas that's what I'm shooting. Wondering what the limits are of the regimen and if it has to be passive.

 

[Enoki]

Mass detectors for homing missiles and densitometers, essentially being able to get an inner passive picture of a ship/base/ building at higher tech levels has been in the game for a long time, so I feel that's covered. But particle detection, not so much.

A densitometer is different from a mass detection device, at least I'd think so. The former would be scanning something actively, and then determining the density of the materials / objects being scanned. I'd think it'd be more like an XRD (X-Ray Defraction) machine. That is it scans the item and returns data on what it's made of, the molecular structure of molecules, that sort of thing.

On the other hand an advanced gravimeter would be measuring the gravity waves and their strength, density, etc., as they moved over the device.
In game terms you might be able to detect a ship that's otherwise cloaked or hidden by the presence of its gravitational forces, particularly if its using grav plates and artificial gravity bending or otherwise modifying local gravity.
This might well be possible even through a black or white globe.
With one you could get the gravitational strength of a planet or star and even calculate accurately gravitational acceleration. This might be important for both jumps and for in-system travel where you are using gravitational acceleration on the ship.
It might also be useful for detecting deadspace (TNE / T20).

So, this is very different from a densitometer.

 

[whulorigan]

A densitometer is different from a gravity detection device, at least I'd think so. The former would be scanning something actively, and then determining the density of the materials / objects being scanned. I'd think it'd be more like an XRD (X-Ray Defraction) machine. That is it scans the item and returns data on what it's made of, the molecular structure of molecules, that sort of thing.

On the other hand an advanced gravimeter would be measuring the gravity waves and their strength, density, etc., as they moved over the device.
In game terms you might be able to detect a ship that's otherwise cloaked or hidden by the presence of its gravitational forces, particularly if its using grav plates and artificial gravity bending or otherwise modifying local gravity.
This might well be possible even through a black or white globe.
With one you could get the gravitational strength of a planet or star and even calculate accurately gravitational acceleration. This might be important for both jumps and for in-system travel where you are using gravitational acceleration on the ship.
It might also be useful for detecting deadspace (TNE / T20).

So, this is very different from a densitometer.

In MT (at least according to DGP:SSOM) the densitometer also effectively fulfilled the role of a gravitometer (based on the "Old Timer" flavor-text).

Under T5, there are explicitly different sensors called densitometer and grav-scanner (= gravitometer).

Part of the standard sensor-package in GURPS Traveller was the "RadScanner", which was a full particle detector that covered both neutrinos as well as other forms of particle radiation.

 

[McPerth]

A densitometer is different from a gravity detection device, at least I'd think so. The former would be scanning something actively, and then determining the density of the materials / objects being scanned. I'd think it'd be more like an XRD (X-Ray Defraction) machine. That is it scans the item and returns data on what it's made of, the molecular structure of molecules, that sort of thing.

IIRC the densiometer is defined in MT as a passive sensor, not an active one.

 

[kilemall]

Ok, fair enough on the GURPS, I never dug into ship building with that variation so I didn't know it addressed the area.

My memory of the original JTAS article was passive for all the grav stuff, not surprising that it carried over to MT.

My gameplay endpoint re: sensors is to have a simplified/complexified sensor subgame.

The basic rule would be that the major multi-LS long range sensors would be limited to 1 per computer model. BIS models get 1 extra.

So for instance I would think a basic package for Type S is GravDetection and Radar.

Active sensors like radar and lidar help find passive/stealthed ships better, but light up and announce their presence to everyone. Passive can allow for a passive mode (low reactor power, no weapons fire, no active sensors, no maneuver) without full doggo shutdown, but can miss other passive/stealth ships.

Every bridge would come with a full suite of every sensor in the miniaturized versions for 1-5000 km or perhaps max 15000 km just like LBB8 robot sensors. They are stupid cheap and a basic survival package for orbital/planetary work at least, and the ship crashlogs can provide clues to the nature of a threat or accident with the additional inputs, even if the crew was not trained to use or interpret them.

Small craft bridges without computers would typically have 2 of the short range sensors.

Finally, stealth build rules that make it expensive to mask or boggle one sensor vector, and impossibly costly to mask against all.

The end result would be a highly variable sensor/engagement environment, where the sensor limitations of cheap and/or low cost low computer ships can be readily fooled- if you are acting against the 'right' sensor mix.

Small craft are also 'short landing craft/ safe environment' vs. full expeditionary long range operations based on spending the extra bucks for full ship computers.

So that's why I'm asking about the 'particle detection' at distance question.

 

[mike wightman]

What are you doing with waste heat?

 

[kilemall]

Side question, I'm also doing fire directors/ local fire control per turret/bay that maintains lock-on once main sensors provide the original fire solution.

One option that came to mind is low-power PA or energy weapon active directors. Obviously not a realistic option for long range sensor work, but a known target the director is dedicated to may be workable.

Advantage is they would be immune to countermeasures like chaff/radar sand/lidar, or at least require their own specialized counters, and could tag/outline an otherwise stealthed ship.

Disadvantage is probably a low resolution which may make getting tactical information or precise ship orientation/roll rate etc. that can help with predict programs.

Opinions, thoughts?

 

[kilemall]

What are you doing with waste heat?

At the risk of another lecture, for stealth, probably some combo of chiller and thermogenic absorption.

Under normal operation, reactor runs at low power and during maneuver ejection with the exhaust.

 

[whartung]

What are you doing with waste heat?

You use it to make coffee. The crew is going to be up all night.

 

[mike wightman]

At the risk of another lecture, for stealth, probably some combo of chiller and thermogenic absorption.

Lol, no lecture

I was watching an Isaac Arthur vid on metamaterials, and one of the suggestions for dealing with an IR signature is basically to funnel all of the heat and radiate it in a direction away from the target.

I'm also toying with a design for a gravitic heat sink that would allow for Battle Tech like heat management during ship combat.

Under normal operation, reactor runs at low power and during maneuver ejection with the exhaust.

Define low power - if the crew is in shirtsleeve conditions then the crew compartment is three hundred degrees above background. Then there is the heat generated in all of the electronics and electrics, gravitics etc.

What sort of exhaust does your maneuver drive produce? I've never been keen on reactionless drives IMTU I use a combination of mass reduction (yup, tied to gravitic tech) and ion or plasma thrusters for low g drives and plasma/fusion rockets for high g. As a result there is a drive plume when they are in use.

 

[Enoki]

Well, one way to get rid of it would be to use the waste from the fusion drive plant to carry it, while acting as reaction thrust.

After all, when you take your hydrogen and undergo fusion you end up with lots of helium as a result. If you heat that with the waste heat and eject it as reaction thrust you are solving two problems at once...

 

[vegas]

I was watching an Isaac Arthur vid on metamaterials, and one of the suggestions for dealing with an IR signature is basically to funnel all of the heat and radiate it in a direction away from the target.

If that was a common tactic, wouldn't the counter-tactic just be to have a second (or 20 - I'm thinking these are small and cheap) spotter ship/drone at some distance from the main ship so there was no real "away" to point to?

Also, that doesn't help with occlusions of the background star field. Sooner or later, you get spotted.

I'm still thinking about all this stuff myself...

 

[Adam Dray]

Um, ships shunt waste heat into jump space through j-dim transduction sinks.

I mean, duh.

Determining how violation of the laws of entropy and conservation of energy within realspace can be exploited left as an exercise for the reader.

 

[Enoki]

Or, maybe they have a waste heat compactor, sort of like a trash compactor and just fire it into space occasionally...

 

[kilemall]

Hmm, maybe the hideously expensive stealthing process for heat should include a requirement to operate on batteries, so limited time range and activities, more tradeoffs.

 

[vegas]

I have been thinking about the implications of a hideously expensive stealth system that used variation of jump to dump waste heat to J-space. If you make it take a lot of fuel, then that would limit your stealth run time.

But you still have problems with occlusions, which means stealth is never more than temporary, and in the far future (with better imaging and faster computers) probably very temporary, making for limited applications.

But stealth could be fun, so I still want it. I feel a handwave coming...