Mongoose 2300AD: 100 ton Alvarez-class patrol boat

[Brandon C]

This is what a 100 ton warship looks like when you have to stick a 15-man bridge crew on it.
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Alvarez class patrol boat, TL11

The Alvarez class was designed to provide Argentina with a light warship for patrolling it's colonies and outposts, as well as escorting important shipping between Earth and the colonies. However, they proved too small for the duties required and were extremely uncomfortable for the crew. In the end, only ten were built, with four still in service with Argentina. The other six were sold to the Inca Republic.

The ship uses an unstreamlined 100 ton hull. The patrol boat has a stutterwarp drive E and MHD turbine G, which provides a cruising speed of 2.16 ly/day and tactical speed 4. Powerplant fuel for 5.25 days (26.46 tons) is included. A solar panel provides minimal power while in a system. Standard radiators are fitted. A model 4 computer, basic navigation sensors, basic military sensors and holographic controls are installed in the compact bridge. The crew of 22 (15 bridge, 4 engineering, and 3 gunners) double-bunks in 11 staterooms. A dual turret with two EA-122 lasers (TTA, arcs 1,2,5,6) and a missile bay (two missile directors, 10 EM-5D missiles) comprise the armament. They have 2 points of synthetic armor. Comfort is -2. Cargo is 2.7 tons and cost is MLv 21.18.

 

[McPerth]

This is what a 100 ton warship looks like when you have to stick a 15-man bridge crew on it.

You're right at pointin to one of the 2300AD particularities: while being a small ship universe (at least when compared with the OTU and HG designed Traveller ships), really small ships are inefficient (to say the least) and rare, Most being on the medum ACS to few thousends tonnage.

See that even a small frigate as the Aconit is 400 dton, and a Thorez (a small courrier) is 200 dtons.

As you point the minimum crew size makes a 100 dton ship quite difficult to make it effective (and yet you maneaged quite well on it).

Alvarez class patrol boat, TL11

The Alvarez class was designed to provide Argentina with a light warship for patrolling it's colonies and outposts, as well as escorting important shipping between Earth and the colonies. However, they proved too small for the duties required and were extremely uncomfortable for the crew. In the end, only ten were built, with four still in service with Argentina. The other six were sold to the Inca Republic.

The ship uses an unstreamlined 100 ton hull. The patrol boat has a stutterwarp drive E and MHD turbine G, which provides a cruising speed of 2.16 ly/day and tactical speed 4. Powerplant fuel for 5.25 days (26.46 tons) is included. A solar panel provides minimal power while in a system. Standard radiators are fitted. A model 4 computer, basic navigation sensors, basic military sensors and holographic controls are installed in the compact bridge. The crew of 22 (15 bridge, 4 engineering, and 3 gunners) double-bunks in 11 staterooms. A dual turret with two EA-122 lasers (TTA, arcs 1,2,5,6) and a missile bay (two missile directors, 10 EM-5D missiles) comprise the armament. They have 2 points of synthetic armor. Comfort is -2. Cargo is 2.7 tons and cost is MLv 21.18.

The ratio firpower/size, as well as the reloads for its ordinance, makes me think on a submarine, more than an escort or patrol boat (unless you're thinking on a PT/missile boat equivalent).

I'd expect for such a small ship not to be crewed to military standards, as even at commercial standards you would save 5 crewmen, and I'd expect too for some crewmembers to double positions (navigator/sensors, etc).

 

[Brandon C]

You're right at pointin to one of the 2300AD particularities: while being a small ship universe (at least when compared with the OTU and HG designed Traveller ships), really small ships are inefficient (to say the least) and rare, Most being on the medum ACS to few thousends tonnage.

You also have odd cases like the 150 ton heavy combat lander in the new SotFA. Since it uses a control cabin rather than bridge, it uses small craft crew requirements, which drastically reduces the crew size compared to a 150 military ship with bridge.

IMHO, the size of the bridge crew should go down on smaller Satships. For example, 7 men at 100-199 tons (non-commercial crew), 12 men at 200-399 tons (commercial crew) and 15 men at 400+ tons (+10 command if 1000+ tons). Small commercial ships should also be able to drop down to 7 men. All other sections are manned normally.

As you point the minimum crew size makes a 100 dton ship quite difficult to make it effective (and yet you maneaged quite well on it).

The two biggest shortcomings are the low amount of power plant fuel and the lack of crew facilities.

Tomorrow I plan to post a version with a 7 man bridge crew, which gives me 16 tons to play with.

The ratio firpower/size, as well as the reloads for its ordinance, makes me think on a submarine, more than an escort or patrol boat (unless you're thinking on a PT/missile boat equivalent).

Actually, I _was_ thinking of PT boats and other craft of similar size.

 

[McPerth]

You also have odd cases like the 150 ton heavy combat lander in the new SotFA. Since it uses a control cabin rather than bridge, it uses small craft crew requirements, which drastically reduces the crew size compared to a 150 military ship with bridge.

But those ships are not expected to perform interstellar distances. That's what in 2300AD makes it a small craft (that only needs a cockpit) or a starship (that needs bridge and full crew).

IMHO, the size of the bridge crew should go down on smaller Satships. For example, 7 men at 100-199 tons (non-commercial crew), 12 men at 200-399 tons (commercial crew) and 15 men at 400+ tons (+10 command if 1000+ tons). Small commercial ships should also be able to drop down to 7 men. All other sections are manned normally.

See when you look at the bridge crew in MgT 2300 AD that there are in fact 5 positions to be filled, and the differences among the several crew requirements are on misison and shifts covered. So, a non-commercial/non military ship is assumed to have the sensors not monitorized by a human all time, and only needs one person for this position, while a military ship needs to monitor them constantly, and so needs 3 people for the post...

So, I understand for the game to make the bridge crew mision dependent, not size dependent (the command crew goes aside).

This said, if you must crew such a small ship, even for military reasons, you can probably spare some crewmember by forcing a little the shifts, having more computerized functions (e.g. sensors being monitored by the computer) or having people trained in two posts (e.g., as said befoe, Navigator and sensor operation, or Pilot and Navigator, or any of them doubling at commo...).

The two biggest shortcomings are the low amount of power plant fuel and the lack of crew facilities.

And that makes them more useful as patrol than as escorts.

They can rach quite far with their decent speed and 5 days autonomy, but if they escort merchan ships, they must adapt the speed to them, and it would probably need more days of fuel to reach the destination. And in this case the solar panels are useless, being in deep space.

Actually, I _was_ thinking of PT boats and other craft of similar size.

And as such it would be quite poserful. Did the PTs carry reloads for the torpedoes?

 

[Brandon C]

But those ships are not expected to perform interstellar distances. That's what in 2300AD makes it a small craft (that only needs a cockpit) or a starship (that needs bridge and full crew).

I picked the wrong ship for a comparison. There is a 200 ton French fast courier (the Sirocco) that uses a control cabin rather than a bridge. This drastically cuts the crew size. Additionally, the ship is specifically intended for interstellar flight.

So, though a legal loophole, it reduces bridge crew from 7 to 2. Personally, I think it is incredibly dodgy.

This said, if you must crew such a small ship, even for military reasons, you can probably spare some crewmember by forcing a little the shifts, having more computerized functions (e.g. sensors being monitored by the computer) or having people trained in two posts (e.g., as said befoe, Navigator and sensor operation, or Pilot and Navigator, or any of them doubling at commo...).

I was giving some consideration to a battle shift (all five positions filled when combat is imminent) and a cruising shift (2 bridge crew on duty, possibly with a gunner brought in to monitor sensors and comms).

And that makes them more useful as patrol than as escorts.

I have to agree, the endurance is too short for an escort.

And as such it would be quite poserful. Did the PTs carry reloads for the torpedoes?

No. I did choose reloads in this case since the missiles are so small.

 

[Brandon C]

Okay, here is a version with a smaller bridge crew.
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Alvarez class patrol boat, TL11, V2

The Alvarez class was designed to provide Argentina with a light warship for patrolling it's colonies and, where possible, escorting important shipping between Earth and the colonies. However, they proved too small for the duties required. In the end, only ten were built, with four still in service with Argentina. Four were sold to the Inca Republic and two were scrapped after taking severe combat damage.

The 15-man crew consists of a bridge crew (2 pilots, 2 astrogators, sensors, communications and engineer) , 3 gunners, 4 engineers and a medic. The commander has his own stateroom, while everyone else double-bunks. All bridge positions are filled during combat. Otherwise, the bridge is only manned by a pilot, astrogator and a gunner monitoring comms and sensors.

The solar panels allows the ship to remain on station for several days, running minimal systems such as life support and passive sensors.

The ship uses an unstreamlined 100 ton hull. The patrol boat has a stutterwarp drive E and MHD turbine G, which provides a cruising speed of 2.16 ly/day and tactical speed 4. Power plant fuel for 7 days (35.28 tons) is included. A solar panel is included. Standard radiators are fitted. A model 4 computer, basic navigation sensors, basic military sensors and holographic controls are installed in the bridge. The crew of 15 bunks in 8 staterooms. Crew accommodations include 5-man recreation facilities, a 5-man galley, 2 freshers, and an automed. A dual turret with two EA-122 lasers (TTA, arcs 1,2,5,6) and a missile bay (missile director, 10 EM-5D missiles) comprise the armament. They have 2 points of synthetic armor. Comfort is -1. Cargo is 1.6 tons and cost is MLv 20.12.

 

[McPerth]

I picked the wrong ship for a comparison. There is a 200 ton French fast courier (the Sirocco) that uses a control cabin rather than a bridge. This drastically cuts the crew size. Additionally, the ship is specifically intended for interstellar flight.

So, though a legal loophole, it reduces bridge crew from 7 to 2. Personally, I think it is incredibly dodgy.

Where does this Sirocco class appear?

In any case, I would call it outright cheating (the spirit of the rules, at least). The cabin/cockpit tules are for small craft (not by size, but by misison, as they can well be over 100 dtons, as my own landers in this thread) expected not to go far nor to have the crew on them for long time (fighters, interface crafts, etc). Those crafts don't need their own engineers because it is expected that those in the base (be it a mothership or a true base) cares for those needs (so they have the crew needs increased for the small craft maintenance).

I'd use the MT (although it is quite unrelated) rule that if crew is rutinely expected to spend more than 8 hours in the craft, doublé the cabin/cockpit volumen needs, and if more tan 24, then full accomodations (and full crew) is needed.

I was giving some consideration to a battle shift (all five positions filled when combat is imminent) and a cruising shift (2 bridge crew on duty, possibly with a gunner brought in to monitor sensors and comms).

Okay, here is a version with a smaller bridge crew.
-------------------------------

Alvarez class patrol boat, TL11, V2

The Alvarez class was designed to provide Argentina with a light warship for patrolling it's colonies and, where possible, escorting important shipping between Earth and the colonies. However, they proved too small for the duties required. In the end, only ten were built, with four still in service with Argentina. Four were sold to the Inca Republic and two were scrapped after taking severe combat damage.

The 15-man crew consists of a bridge crew (2 pilots, 2 astrogators, sensors, communications and engineer) , 3 gunners, 4 engineers and a medic. The commander has his own stateroom, while everyone else double-bunks. All bridge positions are filled during combat. Otherwise, the bridge is only manned by a pilot, astrogator and a gunner monitoring comms and sensors.

The solar panels allows the ship to remain on station for several days, running minimal systems such as life support and passive sensors.

The ship uses an unstreamlined 100 ton hull. The patrol boat has a stutterwarp drive E and MHD turbine G, which provides a cruising speed of 2.16 ly/day and tactical speed 4. Power plant fuel for 7 days (35.28 tons) is included. A solar panel is included. Standard radiators are fitted. A model 4 computer, basic navigation sensors, basic military sensors and holographic controls are installed in the bridge. The crew of 15 bunks in 8 staterooms. Crew accommodations include 5-man recreation facilities, a 5-man galley, 2 freshers, and an automed. A dual turret with two EA-122 lasers (TTA, arcs 1,2,5,6) and a missile bay (missile director, 10 EM-5D missiles) comprise the armament. They have 2 points of synthetic armor. Comfort is -1. Cargo is 1.6 tons and cost is MLv 20.12.

That's what I meant when I told about reduced bridge crews and doubling posts. Good design.

See that with Warp Efficiency 2.16 and 7 days endurance, this small ship can also doublé as courrier, being easily able to reach up to the 7.7 ly máximum in less then 4 days, so leaving 3 days endurance for docking, etc...(yes, despite some of my designs are very specilaized, a the planetary invasión fleet, I like multi-pourpose ships, so that the fleet has more freedom of action).

I see you reduced the missile bays to only 1. I guess you realized too (as I did after I published my former posts) that only 1 per 100 dtons is allowed .

 

[Brandon C]

Where does this Sirocco class appear?

Mongoose Ships of the French Arm, p.136-138

See that with Warp Efficiency 2.16 and 7 days endurance, this small ship can also doublé as courrier, being easily able to reach up to the 7.7 ly máximum in less then 4 days, so leaving 3 days endurance for docking, etc...(yes, despite some of my designs are very specilaized, a the planetary invasión fleet, I like multi.pourpose ships, so that the fleet has more freedom of action).

Thank. I hadn't even considered the courier role. Given the presumed small size of the Argentine fleet, multi-role ships would seem to be mandatory.

I see you reduced the missile bays to only 1. I guess you realized too (as I did after I published my former posts) that only 1 per 100 dtons is allowed .

It's always been just one bay. I just dropped the number of missile controllers from 2 to 1.