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Another Fav Version Question

tcabril

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I have Twilight 2000 original (I guess we could say "Classic") from Far Futures Enterprises and having read through it - it seems to be a very good, straight forward game.

I also have a copy of Twilight 2000 (ver 2.0) and Twilight 2000 (ver 2.2).

What I am curious about is whether Twilight 2000(2.2) is better than Twilight 2000(2.0).

I understand that Twilight 2000(2.2) was done to make it compatible with Travellers The New Era (why I don't know its not like your characters were ever going to "cross over").

So what are your opinions of Twilight 2000(2.0) and Twilight 2000(2.2)?

Thanks in advance - I love the game and the genre so I want to use the best set of rules possible. (PS I despise Modern D20!!!)
 
Originally posted by tcabril:
What I am curious about is whether Twilight 2000(2.2) is better than Twilight 2000(2.0).
This has been discussed several times over the last year and half. The answer is not definitive. There is strong support for Ver 1, however, a few rules need tweaking. Primarily the 3 rounds expanded per shot. Damage from weapons is weak. Thought that is true of Ver 2 as well.

Ver 2 is updated and almost a forerunning of the D20 system. GDW’s in house system was pretty good. Ver 2.2 caught T2K up with the in house system and made some good changes. History updates and more current data.

The rewrite is based on the Ver 1 story line, updated to D20 and following the Traveller rules.

So…there you go. No answer really. I’m a 2.2 fan.

Question though, why do you dislike D20 modern??
 
Thanks for your input - it is appreciated (spelling?).
I guess to answer your question as to why I don't like D20 Modern is more as to why I am not a big fan of D20 in general. My opinion is that the D20 system is too easy to be abused by players. I have sat in on discussions with my gaming group and others where the topic almost always seems to go to "where can I get the most + to do something and the quickest way". My feeling is that earlier RPGS (I have been playing for 25 years) were more Roleplaying over Rules and now with the advent of D20 (D&D, D20 Modern and others) is that now it Rules over Roleplaying. This can be more of a Player problem in that it is how players are approaching the game - but it seems to universal from my experience (note - I am not saying that all players are number-crunchinig to make the most powerful characters - just the ones I am familiar with - either from the games that I play or groups I know).
I don't know how Traveller/T20 is as I have not played but it seems to me that a bit of this is been cut down with the prior history character development - but I don't know for sure.

My experience with D20 Modern was like a course in applied mathematics - everyone was trying to squeeze whatever bonus they could - even multiclassing and taking prestige classes that did not fit any character mold - just to get a cool bonus.
That aspect turned me off so much I dropped out of the game - the first game I have dropped out in many years.
I have always enjoyed the "ordinary person (or above average person) doing extrodinary things" - where as in D20 it is more (IMO) "extrodinary persons doing extrodinary things" - which what you should expect.

Like I said this is just my opinon of D20 based upon my expriences - and my opinion and $2.00 will buy you a large cup of coffee at Starbucks.

I am very interested in trying Traveller T20 and the 2320 Traveller game when released as well as Twilight T20 - maybe my opinion will change.

Regards,
 
Well said. I tend to agree with you in most respects. Given the flexibility in the D20 system you have given the power gamers enough data to make playing almost obsolete. The sole purpose of a game is to get XP and advance. Ugh..not my style of game. I am rather picky with whom I play, and generally recruit my own players verses joining an existing group. My best friend will spend two to three hours calculating how to advance his character in order to obtain what he wants. Drives me nuts. However, he is also a consummate role-player.

T20 still caters to the D20 stigma you have expressed. Feats are plentiful, initial advancement is quick with the average character starting at level 8. In the rewrite of Twilight I have cut the number of feats available by about a third, however, the ability to choose feats and skills to create the character you want is more open. The terms of service give added depth to your character and if you are in to writing a background, give the basic data to really create some thing good.

One of the best aspects of the D20 system is the ability to mold a character to what your personal view is. In the older games, (I to have been gaming forever. I cut my teeth on the original SPI and Avalon Hills war/board games. When they were new.) you could rarely create more than a shell. A good player overcame these limits with good role playing, the rest became hack and slashers.

I guess the bottom line is, don’t give up on the D20 system. Recruit some players of like mind as you, put some house rules in affect to limit the “videogame hero syndrome”, and play. If you haven’t tried RPGA sanctioned events you might consider attending some of those, the power gamer is still there but the rules are more structured. And if you ever find yourself in Oregon….look us up.
 
Thanks and if I ever do go to Oregon I will!!!
I am a huge fan of both Traveller (all eras) and Twilight 2000.
I downloaded both Twilight 2000 2.2 and Traveller the New Era from drivethrurpg and they are really great systems.

I won't give up on D20 - I am anxious to play Traveller D20 and Twilight 2000 D20 if it ever comes out (I am so looking forward to it)
 
My gaming group is partial to ver 2.2, not because characters will cross over, but because we're in our 30s and have neither the time nor inclination to learn new rules sets. With the GDW house rules, my group can switch between the various GDW RPGs with little trouble. ...Not that there is anything wrong with the original T:2000 rules per se (OK the 3-shot is lame), we all cut our teeth on them, but the 2.2 rules are cleaner, more streamlined.

D20 Modern is a contradiction in terms. I'm sure that D20 makes a fine heroic fantasy rules set, but trying to bolt it onto a non-heroic backround is a poor fit. Feats? Prestige Classes? Levels? Sure, you could make up a bunch of house rules to patch the holes & gaps & runaway abilities, but why? Just use a more appropriate rules system to begin with. If you feel you need to use something currently in print, try out GURPS, which handles well the realism needed for a military role playing game. Plus your knowledge of the rules will translate into countless other settings.

I realize that the pen-and-paper RPG field is much smaller than in the glory days, and that we feel we need a Microsoft -- excuse me, a Wizards of the Coast -- to maintain cohesiveness in the hobby. Maybe that's true, but D20 is a poor one-size-fits-all rules system.

Wayne
 
Gents,

An regular event at my local FLGS illustrates the extremely poor nature of d20 as a universal game system and even the problem underlying the very idea of an universal game system.

One fellow runs a weekly 'All In' d20 combat tourney. While levels (acckkk... spit) are limited, all the other various munchkin friendly/abused d20 bits are in full play. A player won a few weeks ago by fielding two halfling barbarian warriors backed up by two magic users.

He took out the reigning champ, a player with an actual fighter, by a careful, one time only, uber munchkin application of the rules. First, his magic users cast some sort of accuracy bonus on the halflings and then the halflings shot arrows in the fighter's eyes. Once blinded, the fighter was easy meat for the heroic halfpints.

Naturally, as with every other d20 session I've ever witnessed, this halfling sniper episode was interrupted by several 'check the rules books' interludes. The session was little more than rule playing and nothing like role playing.

Prior to having his character blinded by a rules lawyer, the player in question had won week after week in the old fashioned manner; he out played his opponents.

His fighter did not rely on ridiculous feats, odd weapons, odder armor, and hair splitting applications of the rules. He fought his opponents, he knew when to press his advantage, when not to press his advantage, when to play 'rope a dope', and when to attack all out. He fought, he didn't lawyer.

He was beaten by an opponent who spread the same number of points over four different characters. Two of the characters existed only to throw ONE specific spell on two unresisting characters. The other two characters existed only to blind their opponent and then, once he was blinded, take him out with minimal combat skills.

Sadly, the halfling archer - single spell magic user trick is legal in d20. Whether or not it is fair or fun is another matter entirely.

The rules for Avalon Hill's Midway were once misused in a similar fashion. In that game, planes could fly a certain distance from a carrier; 14 boxes, and a carrier could land a certain number of planes. Proto-d20 munchkins, or the fathers of d20 munchkins, quickly saw the opportunity presented. They'd fly planes from a carrier, attack a target, and then fly a shorter distance back to a different carrier to land. Thus, legally, a strike from Yorktown could fly 10 boxes, hit the Japanese, fly 4 boxs to Enterprise, and land while the Enterprise planes flew 4 boxes, attacked, and flew 10 boxes to land on Yorktown.

When this so-called tactic was first presented in the hobby press; Avalon Hill's General, common sense prevailed. Everyone quickly acknowledged that the tactic was legal within the letter of the rules and quite illegal within the spirit of the rules. If Avalon Hill had been using d20, the tactic in question would have probably become a feat.

WOTC and d20, also known as the Microsoft and Windows of the RPG world.

One size does not fit all.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Actually I have ported some T2k ver2.0 characters to a home brew TNE setting. Actually it was to Uragyadn of the Seven Pillars by FASA.
T2k chars tend to be uber warriors in a TNE setting though as T2k chars have on average 5 or more levels of gun combat skills whereas TNE chars will generally (if they want starships skills too) only have 1 or 2 or maybe 3 levels of gun combat skills. Still my players enjoyed it though I tired of it quickly... reffing essentially munchkin characters that is. Not that they created them that way it's just a product of the different settings and chargen setups.
 
Heheh. Larsen what you describe happens in every game. From the first version of DnD, Shadowrun, Traveller…it doesn’t matter what the system is, there are ways to abuse the system by microplaying the rules. D20 has nothing on DnD Ver 2. By the end of that run there were so many conflicting rules and addendums a rules jockey could get away with anything. Even outside of strategy games, rule jockeys roam the land. Bridge, Poker and Cribbage all have buried rules which are either unknown or ignored by those playing the games for fun or light gambling. But enter a major competition without having done your homework and you will get eaten up, not by superior play but by nitpicky rules.

In my eyes its not the rule set where the problems lie, but in the players and DM’s. I pick my players pretty carefully and when I haven’t found a group I like I go find some new blood and get them hooked. A DM that finds he is running power gamers should simply change the flavor of the campaign from combat to investigation or stealth based missions. I suppose it’s rather mean, but a power gamer is usually built for combat. If they suddenly have to use tact and diplomacy or stealth to accomplish a goal the power gamer gets bored fast and goes away.

Sorry, I’m soap boxing again. If the players know their DM runs role-play heavy sessions, they tend to create more rounded-out characters.

Anyways, just thoughts.
 
What's wrong with players taking advantage of the rules of the game? Should a player be penalized because he remembers rules the others have forgotten? I take exception to comments that players who use the total set of rules (i.e. 'rules lawyers') somehow aren't as 'good' as those who don't. I would argue that being able to bring to bear all the advantages a game allows is the hallmark of a good gamer. Rules lawyers are often portrayed as being whiners who use the rules to win 'false' victories, but that argument can just as easily be turned around against the 'casual', or non-rules lawyer, gamer; some protests from non-rules lawyers sound like nothing more than sour grapes, whining that if only a certain part of the rules set hadn't been in existence, they'd have won.

Part of the fun in playing wargames (and RPGs are, in some aspects, a subset) is in getting to immerse one's self in the experience by which many say good generals are measured; a retreat or well-fought loss. Most of the times I've been out-fought has been by players using every last bit of advantage they could from the rules, often times springing some arcane clause on my at just the right time and the fact of that never caused me to want to take my toys and go home. Rather, it only made me want to have a rematch as well as aid my growth as a gamer.

As far as RPGs go, Biggles has hit the nail completely and utterly on the head. Such 'problems' as have been discussed in this thread can only really exist in RPGs if the players and DMs allow them to. A player should not be thought less of merely because he studies the rules and takes advantage of them. Neither should a DM allow slavish adherence to the rules be a cause for the overall experince to be degraded, either. As long as things are fair for all concerned, that's the thing.

I've had power gamers in my campaigns; some of them did get bored once the thinking bits of the campaign arose, others did not. In my experience, it's maturity that makes the difference. Mature power gamers can be just as effective in a heavy role-playing environment as they can in a roll-playing one. So what? Let them play and have fun. A DM who is doing his job properly should be able to have power gamers (definitions vary as to exactly what they are) and non-power gamers in the same campaign with both types having fun.
 
I would argue that being able to bring to bear all the advantages a game allows is the hallmark of a good gamer.
well ... a good tactical lawyer, yes, if you view such a thing as a game. but it misses the point of an RPG, which is to put yourself in someone else's mind. one may as well play chess or stratego or bridge.

the rules of an RPG are not the RPG. rules enable RPG's to be played, but they can just as easily swallow them up and make the RPG disappear.
 
My playing group picked up T2k version 2, so that's what we're used to. The rules were so much more simple than DnD 2nd Ed.

As for munchkin characters, a good GM will think of obstacles, moral dilemmas and plot hooks that challenge players of any power level. A smart player with a low level character can prevail over a "prestige" class character who relies entirely on stats and feats that may or may not help them in a creative situation.
 
As for munchkin characters, a good GM will think of obstacles, moral dilemmas and plot hooks that challenge players of any power level. A smart player with a low level character can prevail over a "prestige" class character who relies entirely on stats and feats that may or may not help them in a creative situation.
(welcome to traveller)

apparently you have never encountered a true munchkin.
 
According to the rules, stills require "organic material" to make ethanol. I had a player who argued that the rules didn't state what KIND of organic matter, so he insisted we can just cram in anything organic that crosses our path: hogs, chickens, Soviet infantry, etc.

If anyone can beat that, I would very much like to hear it. :D
 
2.2 was not a nod to TNE... it predated TNE.

Or, I should say, the RULES MECHANICS predated TNE.

The changes to the rules for 2.2 vs 2.0 were in the Referee's screen for T2K.

T2K 2.0 was a nice 1d10 roll... I liked it. But a lot of people didn't, and it wasn't going to mesh with the task levels of DGP-aided CT, MT, nor 2300; the numbers simply do not work well.

Likewise, specialization for weapons was added. CG was essentially unchanged, and the detail of the careers for T2K and DC allowed ripping them into TNE with little effort.

And T2K and TNE are not compatible CG wise for result characters, even though the careers themselves can be shoved either way. (TNE actually gives fewer skills; anti-munchkinism.)

GDW's DC, C&D, and T2K games are all inter-compatible. TNE is slightly different, but still the same engine.

I don't have C&D, but I do have DC... and inter-compatibility means I can add parapsych interrogators to my Seal teams...
 
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