Anti-Ship Space Mines

[Garnfellow]

I was reading through the excellent GURPS: Uplift book and was struck by this passage on space mines:

Space mines are small drone spaceships armed with missile warheads. They are laid in clusters near transfer points or in orbits around besieged planets. . . . The mines are equipped with stealth suites and low-emission power sources. If a ship comes within range, the mine activates its engines and zooms in for the kill (115).

This seems like a perfectly viable technology in the OTU, useful for deployment around bases, MainWorlds, gas giants, and interdicted points. Do they perhaps exist under a different name? And if they don't, is there a reason why this technology isn't widely used?

 

[MThompson016]

To an extent, they already exist. MgT has drone fighters available, and there are examples of small stations with missile racks.

One issue would be orbital maintenance and decay, which is noted as a problem with the orbital bomb rockets in Heinlein's Space Cadet. Another is targeting. How do you know that ship signature entering at point X is a hostile or an off course merchant?

 

[wellis]

To an extent, they already exist. MgT has drone fighters available, and there are examples of small stations with missile racks.

One issue would be orbital maintenance and decay, which is noted as a problem with the orbital bomb rockets in Heinlein's Space Cadet. Another is targeting. How do you know that ship signature entering at point X is a hostile or an off course merchant?

Wouldn't drone mines have sensors, and good ship recognition software to use to compare a possible target ship with a database downloaded into it?

 

[agorski]

With the AI-enhanced computers and pods for small hulls, these are easy to design in T5.

 

[martletsquire]

When I was running a campaign, we kinda worked out that one type of mine was basically Missile Bay 'missiles' within a one-shot launcher.

Power supplied by batteries in passive mode, with a large battery to kick major power once the base sensors are tripped and system goes active, targets the target, fires. Overall package with missile was about twice, maybe 3 times the overall mass of just the missile, but wrapped up in a stealth package.

Those were once we got High Guard, otherwise we used a basic 3 shot regular missile launcher. Both were for orbital placement, and quite capable of engaging and damaging ships that were exiting or entering a planet's atmosphere (when they were not as fast as when getting ready to jump.)

This was for 'undetectable' mines. Detectable by military sensors (Patrol Cruiser and Mercenary Cruiser, and real navy stuff) but not by civilian sensors unless the ship owners upgraded (this was all before the whole sensor package stuff was more codified.)

And then there were the 'obvious mines,' basically the same thing but with the opposite of stealth. These were for saying, "Achtung, Minen!" in big, bold sensor language, so to speak.

Can't remember what they cost, maybe 3 times the cost of a regular bay missile reload or 3 times the cost of 3 regular missiles. We justified the sensors and such as if a TL8 society can do basically that with current satellite systems, and current handheld weapon tech (Stinger and Javelin missiles, though at the time it was Stinger and TOWS or the Russkie equivalent in 1980's terms.)

 

[kilemall]

Can't remember what they cost, maybe 3 times the cost of a regular bay missile reload or 3 times the cost of 3 regular missiles. We justified the sensors and such as if a TL8 society can do basically that with current satellite systems, and current handheld weapon tech (Stinger and Javelin missiles, though at the time it was Stinger and TOWS or the Russkie equivalent in 1980's terms.)

A really good RL analogue is CAPTOR.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_60_CAPTOR

 

[whartung]

At least in TNE, pretty much any generic missile is just this. They just happen to be launched from a ship. There's really nothing stopping someone from tossing a cold missile out in to the dark and then let it lie in wait.

The distinction is that the missiles themselves are not active. They need to be guided by something else. They would also, perhaps, need some minor bits to handle orbit/station keeping rather than have them just wandering adrift in the cosmos.

It would be an interesting scenario to have a Space Control Ship (or base) with a bunch of MFDs, and 100, 200, 1000 missiles just floating about as static defense. Since the devices could be cold and running on little more than a watch battery, they could be "naturally" stealthy. It makes things easier in that the SCS doesn't need to be particularly stealthy, especially if it's a base. "Everyone" already knows where it is anyway, do, crank up the active sensors and go all AEGIS on the intruders.

Using TNE rules, or anyone else for that matter, they would not work really well against the large capital ships, as those tend to get blown up by the heavier weapons. But how many missiles and radars can you get for the price of a Deep Site Meson mount?

In a Small Ship 'verse, though, they could be quite a nut to crack operationally, and reasonably cheap. The game is getting to the control ship.

Of course the other problem is that the attacking fleet can bring Lots-O-Missiles along with them, that the static defense are just that -- static. The SCS can target and direct a flurry of missiles out to the invaders, while the invaders simply direct their missiles at the actual targets of interest (i.e. the planet, or base, or whatever). So, they're no panacea, and need to be part of a mixed defense.

But, for the price of a Destroyer, I bet they could be quite the force multiplier.

 

[martletsquire]

kilemail, the Captor is basically what we thunk up.

For space use, you need:

An arming circuit.

A long-term power source, either passive with storage (solar) or active (small radioactive plant) solar would be cheaper.

A final, active targeting and acquisition system. Could be the targeting system of the missile itself, if using missiles.

A small maneuvering system for final aim and station keeping.

Basic shielding from space radiation and junk, easily provided by some stealth coating surface.

Weapon of your choice - in our case it was missiles. Otherwise could be a single-shot nuke powered laser.


No need to have a big platform to have lots of 'brilliant pebbles' floating around, all ready to unleash heck amongst whomever decides to test the field.


Captor. Heh. Figures we'd make one droppable from a BUFF.

 

[nobby-w]

I was reading through the excellent GURPS: Uplift book and was struck by this passage on space mines:

This seems like a perfectly viable technology in the OTU, useful for deployment around bases, MainWorlds, gas giants, and interdicted points. Do they perhaps exist under a different name? And if they don't, is there a reason why this technology isn't widely used?

I think a drifting space mine as such is a fairly useless object. The chance of something coming near enough is pretty remote. However, an unmanned satellite with some missiles is a more viable concept. This could be fairly cheap, and a squadron could be deployed in orbit around any world you wanted to protect.

You could fit some of the satellites with sensors and possibly use some sort of IFF system if there was no manned command facility. However, for this scenario you would also have to deploy a warning system telling ships that they will be fired upon if they do not have the right IFF credentials.

By current international law minefields have to be marked, so this would be little different to current practice.

The satellites themselves could be built with entirely passive sensors and photovoltaic power, which would make them quite stealthy, particularly if you fitted them with a low signature (i.e. stealthy) hull. Station keeping could be accomplished with a simple hypergolic or ion drive RCS that would not require a fusion power plant to operate.

You could also put a few launcher and sensor systems on any vacuum satellites in orbit around the primary, and camouflage them. Now, deploy a few dozen launchers in total keeping the exact number secret, and back them up with a couple of system defence boats to take out any minesweeping operations.

This would turn any refuelling operations at this site into a fleet operation potentially taking weeks to sweep the region.

 

[Garnfellow]

The text also mentions that "Mines can be recalled or caused to self-destruct by transmitting the proper coded signal." So you could have lots of plot opportunities with stolen codes, back doors, etc.

I would assume most minefields, like guard dogs, are primarily useful as a deterrence: they would announce their presence loudly with automated broadcasts: "Do not cross the 90-diameter limit until authorized by System Control." Unmarked minefields are only used in times of war or around high security objectives.

Would these minefields be useful against c-rocks?

I wonder if these minefields would be a rationale for use of fighters: a logical countermeasure to mines would be to deploy swarms of cheap, disposable decoy drones. A response to that countermeasure would be for the mines to ignore anything below a certain size limit (say, 100 dt). And a response to that response would be using fighters alongside the drones.

 

[mike wightman]

Do warship weapons have the same point defence capability of Striker point defence weapons?

 

[Enoki]

It would be easier to make the mines:

A. Self-propelled. That is, they have some means of powering themselves. It doesn't have to be high acceleration so much as having sufficient range to engage targets over time. Space is big, the mines are small...

B. Are capable of doing massive damage. Nuclear warheads, meson generator, whatever, one detonates near your ship you're in trouble. Then there's the "Rod from God" type, or the expanding rod one.

C. They are command activated. Command activated mines are nothing new. Historically these were used by several nations starting about 1915. They were placed on the bottom of a channel or other chokepoint and activated from shore using a cable run to each mine.
This eliminates, or all but eliminates, the danger of one going off on the "wrong" target.

The rules are in place to make something like this. Robot, vehicle, spaceship...

So, that's how I'd do it. Command activated, homing, self-propelled mines. Scatter 'em throughout the system when you need them.

 

[Condottiere]

Mines are supposed to be a surprise, or unavoidable.

They are principally meant to funnel into a killing zone, delay, attrition and/or cripple enemy units.

If missiles, they likely do have to chase down their target, but only fired off when their target can't avoid them.

 

[Timerover51]

It would be easier to make the mines:

A. Self-propelled. That is, they have some means of powering themselves. It doesn't have to be high acceleration so much as having sufficient range to engage targets over time. Space is big, the mines are small...

B. Are capable of doing massive damage. Nuclear warheads, meson generator, whatever, one detonates near your ship you're in trouble. Then there's the "Rod from God" type, or the expanding rod one.

C. They are command activated. Command activated mines are nothing new. Historically these were used by several nations starting about 1915. They were placed on the bottom of a channel or other chokepoint and activated from shore using a cable run to each mine.
This eliminates, or all but eliminates, the danger of one going off on the "wrong" target.

The rules are in place to make something like this. Robot, vehicle, spaceship...

So, that's how I'd do it. Command activated, homing, self-propelled mines. Scatter 'em throughout the system when you need them.

Command activated mines were used during the American Civil War and were successful at sinking several Union ships. I do not think that Russia used the Crimean War, while they did use a variety of contact mines. Command activated mines figured very prominently in US harbor defenses from the Civil War on.

As for autonomous mines, I would hate to see when Grand Duke Constantine's brand new, gold-plated, custom-built, 1000 Ton space yacht jumps into the system, and is promptly vaporized, along with the Grant Duke, by one of the mines.

 

[Enoki]

Mines are supposed to be a surprise, or unavoidable.

They are principally meant to funnel into a killing zone, delay, attrition and/or cripple enemy units.

If missiles, they likely do have to chase down their target, but only fired off when their target can't avoid them.

No... Mines are primarily a denial weapon. You place them such to deny the enemy the ability to move through a straight, into a port, or some similar situation, be it on land, at sea, or in space.

So, the likely place for mines are in the atmosphere and orbit of say gas giants (to deny refueling from them), outer worlds and satellites you can't adequately defend otherwise, and in positions that make getting into a proper trajectory to gain orbit of a planet, that sort of thing.

If you add defenses to protect the mines from being easily swept or removed, that just makes it harder for the enemy to take and use a position denied by mines.

 

[Straybow]

As for autonomous mines, I would hate to see when Grand Duke Constantine's brand new, gold-plated, custom-built, 1000 Ton space yacht jumps into the system, and is promptly vaporized, along with the Grant Duke, by one of the mines.

The Grand Duke shouldn't be jumping into battle zones with his fancy yacht.

 

[Adam Dray]

Hey, I'm a Grand Duke, and I don't have a fancy yacht. I feel cheated.

 

[aramis]

Hey, I'm a Grand Duke, and I don't have a fancy yacht. I feel cheated.

I'm an Archduke... no yacht here. Just an RV.

 

[Selandia]

I'm an Archduke... no yacht here. Just an RV.

Well life is a though racket my Lord... nobody ever got out of it alive.

T5 Deployable turrets offer a building framework for mine.

Have fun

Selandia

 

[Timerover51]

The Grand Duke shouldn't be jumping into battle zones with his fancy yacht.

The U. S. maintained a large number of command detonated mine fields from about 1890 to after World War 2, and they were manned in peacetime as well as wartime. There were also some contact mine fields in peacetime in the Philippines. You do not need to be near a battle zone to hit a mine field.

When I was in Alaska in the 1970s, they were still have World War 2 naval mines drifting ashore along the Cook Inlet and the southern coast. I can see the same thing happening with leftover space mines tagging a ship entering a system.