Auxiliaries - Drydocks

[Vladika]

I'm going to try yet again to get some on point feedback.

These thoughts are as yet incomplete.

Given the needs of a Naval Fleet for both repair and maintenance while far from an appropriate shipyard, the need for mobile drydocks are foreseen. An example would be an Empirial Fleets of TL15 ships operating in the Spinward Marches. There are only 4 Class A TL15 Worlds (Rylanor, Mora, Glistin and Trin). With so few yards available additional facilities are needed by Fleets operating at long distances from those facilities. This will be particularly acute during time of convict. Ships need to be repaired as far forward as possible to returned to the line in the shortest possible time.
Assume a Fleet action defending Vilis or Garda-Vilis where several Ships and Battle Riders are damaged and unable to jump and/or maneuver. Time to Rylanor, the closest TL15 Class A starport, is 4 Jump 4s or 8 weeks. By TCS rules “The time required for repairs is one to four weeks for non-critical damage and four to eight weeks for critical hits.” By the time these ships were transported one way they could have been repaired locally and back to combat status! This is even for critical damage repairs.

Given the above scenario this writer feels forward repair facilities are essential in maintaining Fleet readiness. Further, that this could best be handled by mobile drydocks.

Auxiliary Rules - Drydocks

Dry-docks perform the same function as a repair shipyard. This will include annual maintenance.

A drydock may be self-propelled or “towed”. In any case it requires a minimum of a factor 1 power plant and a bridge designed for its gross tonnage. If self-propelled it must be designed, and crewed, as an otherwise ordinary ship.

A drydock may be any configuration. While being repaired a ship takes the usual 110% and smallcraft take 130% of volume in all but disbursed structures (factor 7). Every dtonne of unallocated drydock volume counts as an equivalent shipyard dtonne. To simplify; the “Cargo” space of the drydock is its shipyard capacity.

A drydock must allocate a minimum of 20% of its gross tonnage to “fixed plant” to contain raw materials, components, fabrication facilities etc. This may be provided integrally or by joined ships or barges. A drydock cannot perform repairs unless this is available. Should less than the required space be available the volume of repairs shall be proportioned.

A drydock can have ships, or barges, alongside to add special repair abilities. This does not increase the overall tonnage of the drydock. The drydock cannot maneuver while so joined.

A drydock can be modular and each module added to increase overall size. No single module can be over 1,000,000 dtonnes. Combined modules over 1,000,000 dtonnes may not maneuver while joined. No maneuver is possible while ships or barges are joined (exception: ships joined for towing purposes). Ships, and barges, may however be carried aboard as any other craft. Bridge sizes, as well as power requirements, must conform to the minimum requirements. Bridge modules are allowed as are “Bridge” barges. Likewise power modules or barges are acceptable.
Barracks ships, or barges, are allowed for crew quarters to hold shipyard workers and extra crew.

Drydocks can perform all minor or major repairs or replacement. Ship Tenders are limited in their ability to repair major systems. They can repair all systems on the ship classes they were designed for except armor repair. Ship Tenders can also perform Drive replacement if a replacement Drive is available.

(Table goes here but to long to format)

Must have a Bridge equal to the total required for the collective tonnage under repair.

Must have power equal to the total EPs required for the collective tonnage under repair. (This may come from power barges, ships, or ground installations if repairs are made dirt side.)

Must have work crew members totaling to 5 per 100 dtonnes of ship system being worked on for major repairs and 2 per 100 dtonnes for minor repairs. In any case not less than 2 workers per system are required. Ex: Replace a destroyed 200 dtonne Bridge requires 10 workers. Repair ships 100 dtonne weapons bay; Major repair requires 5 workers; Minor repair requires 2 workers.

Note: This can be simplified by using 4 shipyard workers for each 100 dtonnes of gross drydock tonnage.

 

[rancke]

Given the needs of a Naval Fleet for both repair and maintenance while far from an appropriate shipyard, the need for mobile drydocks are foreseen. An example would be an Empirial Fleets of TL15 ships operating in the Spinward Marches. There are only 4 Class A TL15 Worlds (Rylanor, Mora, Glistin and Trin). With so few yards available additional facilities are needed by Fleets operating at long distances from those facilities. This will be particularly acute during time of convict. Ships need to be repaired as far forward as possible to returned to the line in the shortest possible time.

Stockpile parts at naval bases located on worlds with shipyards. We know that any class A and class B starport is capable of providing maintenance for ships of any TL, although the evidence only applies to small ships. Still, with the requisite parts available most repairable damage should be repairable at any shipyard and boatyard (Assuming adequate capacity).


Hans

 

[Vladika]

Stockpile parts at naval bases located on worlds with shipyards. We know that any class A and class B starport is capable of providing maintenance for ships of any TL, although the evidence only applies to small ships. Still, with the requisite parts available most repairable damage should be repairable at any shipyard and boatyard (Assuming adequate capacity).
Hans

By TCS "Starport Repairs: Full repair may be done at any A or B starport, but j-drive repairs require double cost and time at B starports, and no starport may repair a ship system of higher tech level than the starport's tech level. Repairs require shipyard capacity equal to the ship's tonnage." TCS p.35

I know we could go the easy way, but, where's the fun in that? Besides, maybe a deep space yard. Something more thought provoking than the usual run of the mill deep space refueling point.

 

[mike wightman]

Using FFW and the notes in S9 every naval base in the SM is capable of repairing fleets as required - no need for TL15 worlds, just the base.
Thus part of each base must include something like your dry dock.

But at the TL of the Imperium, using HG2 RAW, there is no reason other than cost not to make the dry-docks as massive (100,000,000t) "ships". There is no 1,000,000t limit past TL13.

 

[rancke]

By TCS "Starport Repairs: Full repair may be done at any A or B starport, but j-drive repairs require double cost and time at B starports, and no starport may repair a ship system of higher tech level than the starport's tech level. Repairs require shipyard capacity equal to the ship's tonnage." TCS p.35

TCS is a set of wargames rules. It makes certain unspoken assumptions to simplify the setting for game purposes. What we don't know is if the assumption is that class A and B starports of pocket empires could stock spare parts for higher-tech ships but don't or if the assumption is that no starport can repair higher-tech starships even if it did stock spare parts. The fact that any class A or B starport can maintain civilian ships of higher than local tech suggests that TCS is simplifiying the picture a bit.

Anyway, if we want to increase the granularity of the setting, we're going to have to figure out which it is and what rules apply to starports with stockpiles and to starports without stockpiles.

I know we could go the easy way, but, where's the fun in that? Besides, maybe a deep space yard. Something more thought provoking than the usual run of the mill deep space refueling point.

You'd still need some way to convey ships with disabled jump drives to nearby shipyards. Either repair ships to perform temporary repairs or transports capable of moving a dreadnaught.

Perhaps a ship that is essentially one gigantic jump drive. You'd strap it to the derelict and use the derelict's tanks to provide the jump fuelk.


Hans

 

[flykiller]

in real world drydocks are necessary for work that must be done out of water. by "drydock" do you mean a container to allow work on a ship in-atmosphere and out of vaccuum? if so, is that really necessary? and if not then what function does a "drydock" fill? unless you mean repair facility?

A drydock must allocate a minimum of 20% of its gross tonnage to “fixed plant” to contain raw materials, components, fabrication facilities etc.

rather than an arbitrary amount one may assign percentages for expected work. for example normal maintenance of an existing system may require .01 of its total dtonnage, combat repair .2, full "replacement" .5. one then totals up the total component dtonnage of a given squadron or other supported unit to obtain the total dtonnage of support required. this number will be substantial and unsupportable, so one then assigns different levels of support - peacetime .1, patrol .2, wartime .5, taskforce 1, or whatever system suits you.

I found full wartime support of an entire naval unit throughout all the fleets almost impossible, it simply requires too much dtonnage. normal maintenance support combined with some combat damage support for line units only, with a standby reserve support group available for offensive operations, seems the best that can be done.

 

[Garyius2003]

America's example from WWII. Massive sections of dry docks slowly towed to formerly remote fleet anchorages. Huge.

With enough sections they were lifting battleships and carriers, destroyers and support ships were lifted by the case lot, surrounded by cargo ships converted to parts depots and huge floating machine and metal shops.

While you likely can fix 3I battleships without needing air, you could have jump one one G support frames in the 5kDt range, and 2 or 4 kDt parts ships and robot/repair pod ships and massive machine and electronic shops.

That's a good war reason for the massive numbers of CEs and DEs and destroyers and FEs...

Clouding around the support fleet as they move 10 weeks worth of jumps to the preplanned shake and bake fleet base, and then securing the cargo route back and forth.

 

[Vladika]

Using FFW and the notes in S9 every naval base in the SM is capable of repairing fleets as required - no need for TL15 worlds, just the base.

As naval bases have no construction or repair facilities of their
own, all such work is done under contract (and supervision) by civilian firms based at the adjoining starport. S9-p6

Commonly placed at finer starports, naval bases are dispersed evenly throughout the Imperium as harbors and repair sites for the ships of the Imperial Navy. S9-p7

Thus part of each base must include something like your dry dock.

True. And I want to know what it looks like and how it works.

But at the TL of the Imperium, using HG2 RAW, there is no reason other than cost not to make the dry-docks as massive (100,000,000t) "ships". There is no 1,000,000t limit past TL13.

Agree there too. Still want to know what they look like and how it works.

My Navy might want one or more tailing along as we go kick some puppy butt or stop those darn Zhos from playing in our dreams.

The further I go up the proverbial creek the more likely I'm going to need an extra paddle.

 

[flykiller]

no starport may repair a ship system of higher tech level than the starport's tech level.

perhaps one may specify that naval bases are not starports and are independent of their world's tech level. they cannot build, but certainly they can repair to the tech level required by the imperial fleet? otherwise there is no purpose to a naval base.

jewell seems a case in point. as a major world on the zhodani border certainly it would have the very latest repair facilities at its naval base?

 

[flykiller]

That's a good war reason for the massive numbers of CEs and DEs and destroyers and FEs...

clouding around the support fleet as they move 10 weeks worth of jumps to the preplanned shake and bake fleet base, and then securing the cargo route back and forth.

they cannot. a single line ship would make mincemeat of them. depending on the combat rules of course.

 

[Vladika]

America's example from WWII. Massive sections of dry docks slowly towed to formerly fleet anchorages. Huge.

With enough sections they were lifting battleships and carriers, destroyers and support ships were lifted by the case lot, surrounded by cargo ships converted to parts depots and huge machine and metal shops.

Thank you Garyius!

While you likely can fix 3I battleships without needing air, you could have jump one one G support frames in the 5kDt range, and 2 or 4 kDt parts ships and robot/repair pod ships and massive machine and electronic shops.

That's a good war reason for the massive numbers of CEs and DEs and destroyers and FEs...

clouding around the support fleet as they move 10 weeks worth of jumps to the preplanned shake and bake fleet base, and then securing the cargo route back and forth.

Agreed.

Besides, something has to fix that POS (Piece of SHInny meTal) Tigress. Built as a Sphere :file_21Biggest and easiest "to hit" for a Meson gun short of an ordinary rock and to top it off only a factor 7 Meson screen. All to get the Missile Batteries a Cruiser could provide and the "Should be carried on a Carrier" Fighters too many people on this board think are useless...

Oh, and no way in hell is it carrying enough fuel for those J4 Drives.

As a TARGET ship it's pricey, but, you don't have to build a tug to pull it across the range as it's self propelled.

 

[Vladika]

Anyway, if we want to increase the granularity of the setting, we're going to have to figure out which it is and what rules apply to starports with stockpiles and to starports without stockpiles.

And that is the point of this thread and drydocks to start it off.

You'd still need some way to convey ships with disabled jump drives to nearby shipyards. Either repair ships to perform temporary repairs or transports capable of moving a dreadnaught.

All that and more. The point in the drydock is to FULLY repair these ships.

"To repair a ship in place, first a message must be sent to a starport capable of repair; a new drive must be transported to the damaged ship; and it must be inserted, taking double the normal repair time (although not double cost)." TCS-p35

Perhaps a ship that is essentially one gigantic jump drive. You'd strap it to the derelict and use the derelict's tanks to provide the jump fuelk
Hans

I have tugs designed for that and many other reasons. MikeW proposed Tenders used to move dead Capitol ships and that works wonderfully well. Tenders are CHEAP compared to the cost of Warships.

So help me out here... CT/HG/TSC are what I like to use. Simple, easy to use and in spite of some serious flaws, fun to play.

 

[Vladika]

they cannot. a single line ship would make mincemeat of them. depending on the combat rules of course.

Well, by HG those escorted ships will be in the reserve and break off while the escorts take the hits.

Besides, there will be the random "Hunter Killer" group out there.

 

[Garyius2003]

they cannot. a single line ship would make mincemeat of them. depending on the combat rules of course.

Sure, and you would have a cruiser or two per convoy, but need 10-15 (some kind of escorts) to avoid one fleet intruder and one high jump carrier discharging a cloud of 15 ton fighters to attack supply convoy 10-14B at the gas giant.

 

[Vladika]

in real world drydocks are necessary for work that must be done out of water. by "drydock" do you mean a container to allow work on a ship in-atmosphere and out of vaccuum? if so, is that really necessary? and if not then what function does a "drydock" fill? unless you mean repair facility?

"Drydock" was the chosen word, based on familiarity, for repair facility.

I do think it would be easier to NOT have to work while in a vacc suite (I believe more than a few NASA types would agree), and if DMs were involved I'd make a differential.

 

[robject]

But at the TL of the Imperium, using HG2 RAW, there is no reason other than cost not to make the dry-docks as massive (100,000,000t) "ships". There is no 1,000,000t limit past TL13.

Noting first that the 1 million ton limit is probably a reasonable one: beyond that, you don't have ships per se, but something more like bases or installations to assault, whether mobile or not.

 

[flykiller]

Sure, and you would have a cruiser or two per convoy, but need 10-15 (some kind of escorts) to avoid one fleet intruder and one high jump carrier discharging a cloud of 15 ton fighters to attack supply convoy 10-14B at the gas giant.

the dtonnage needed to build support and defend this drydock may be greater than the dtonnage it is expected to repair and return to service.

 

[Condottiere]

Why not have small repair ships attach themselves like leeches on the exterior areas that need attention?

 

[Vladika]

the dtonnage needed to build support and defend this drydock may be greater than the dtonnage it is expected to repair and return to service.

That is a distinct possibility. The question though is not whether it should exist, or even be practical. My real question is are the proposed "rules" for use reasonable?

I'd really like to write a LBB for use of auxiliaries in HG/TCS. :CoW:

For those not interested, cool. For anyone who is though, opinions and ideas are more than welcome.

 

[Vladika]

Why not have small repair ships attach themselves like leeches on the exterior areas that need attention?

Another good idea. Write some "rule" for their use and capabilities?