Big Ship: Heavy Destroyer

[AnotherDilbert]

Just to show that we can build bigger ships with the ACS design system I built a destroyer.

Summary:
Jump-4 / 6 g with reasonable armour AV=192.
Main meson gun (just in case someone forgot to turn the meson screens on).
Lots of Particle barbettes (a battery of 40 should be able to penetrate and actually do damage to itself!).
Some Data/CommCasters.
30 point defence turrets.
Most sensors with big antenna mounts, plus antenna backups.
Nominal crew of 200, including 50 marines. Light on gunners (battery fire presumed), lots of automation. Good ergomony but somewhat cramped crew quarters with double life-support capacity.


Description (auto-generated):
Using a 10000 Dton partially streamlined hull, it has J Drive Y8, M Drive 2Q9, and P Plant 2R9 giving performance of jump-4 and 6 g acceleration. There is fuel tankage of 4181,4 Dton, enough for 4 weeks and 1 jump-4.

The bridge has 3 control consoles, 17 operating consoles, an Ear m/7/fib and 3 Gen m/5/fib computers. The rest of the ship has 126 control consoles, 40 operating consoles, and 3 Gen m/5/fib computers.

There are 23 sensors: an Ult DS BAnt Commu-14 +21, two Ult DS Ant Commu-14 +17, two Pro DS Surf CommP-15 +10, an Ult DS BAnt Radar-15 +21, two Ult DS Ant Radar-15 +17, an Imp DS BAnt EMS-15 +18, an Ult DS BAnt Scope-15 +21, two Ult DS Ant Scope-15 +17, an Ear DS BAnt Visor-15 +16, an Adv DS BAnt Neutr-15 +20, two Adv DS Ant Neutr-15 +16, a DS Ant Grav -15 +13, an Ult G BAnt Jamme-15 +14, two Ult G Ant Jamme-15 +10, an Imp DS BAnt Steal-15 +18, and two Imp DS Ant Steal-15 +14.

There are 100 staterooms for the crew with a Comfort of -2.

There are 122 weapons: 80 Mod DS B2 Part-15 +5, a DS M Meso-15 +10, two Mod G B2 Data-15 +5, three Ult DS T4 Comm-14 +5, six Ult SR T4 Comm-11 +5, and 30 Ult SR T4 SLM -13 +5.

There are six screens: an Imp Vd B2 Nucle-15 +4, two Gen Vd Surf Nucle-15 ±0, an Imp D B2 Meson-15 +4, and two Gen D Surf Meson-15 ±0.

There are twelve carried craft: two Cutter, Modulars in Hangars, and ten Fighters in Brackets.

Cargo capacity is 268 Dton. The ship requires a crew of 200: four pilots, two navigators, six sensor operators, 52 engineers, ten administrators, three medics, 41 gunners, five specialists, 14 flight crew, and 50 troops. The ship costs MCr 5047,7.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Details:

C-ZU64                         Ergo 0  Comfort -2    Demand 0
                                            268,5      5047,7
System                              #        Dton        Cost
Hull                                        10000            
Unstreamlined                                             252
FeN       AV=192 ( 408 vs Blast, 408 vs Pen, 20700 vs Heat/Beam, 1920 vs Pres, 1704 vs Nuke, 1200 vs Rad, 240 vs EMP )
Ablat     AV=  0 ( 1500 vs Heat/Beam  )
Armour Ult Anti-Rad                24                          AV=24 (  24 vs Blast,  24 vs Pen, 2400 vs H/B, 240 vs Rad,   0 vs EMP )
Armour Ult Anti-Rad                24       133,3              AV=24 (  24 vs Blast,  24 vs Pen, 2400 vs H/B, 240 vs Rad,   0 vs EMP )
Armour Ult Anti-Rad                24       133,3              AV=24 (  24 vs Blast,  24 vs Pen, 2400 vs H/B, 240 vs Rad,   0 vs EMP )
Armour Ult Anti-Rad                24       133,3              AV=24 (  24 vs Blast,  24 vs Pen, 2400 vs H/B, 240 vs Rad,   0 vs EMP )
Armour Ult Anti-Rad                24       133,3              AV=24 (  24 vs Blast,  24 vs Pen, 2400 vs H/B, 240 vs Rad,   0 vs EMP )
Armour Ult Anti-EMP                24       133,3              AV=24 (  24 vs Blast,  24 vs Pen, 2400 vs H/B,   0 vs Rad, 240 vs EMP )
Armour Ult Anti-Kinetic            24       133,3              AV=24 (  24 vs Blast, 240 vs Pen, 2400 vs H/B,   0 vs Rad,   0 vs EMP )
Armour Ult Anti-Blast              24       133,3              AV=24 ( 240 vs Blast,  24 vs Pen, 2400 vs H/B,   0 vs Rad,   0 vs EMP )
Landing Skids Tarmac                            0           0
Lifters Installed                                          25
                                                             
External Craft                    100                        
Total Drive Capacity            10100                        
                                                             
Jump Bubble                                                 0
Mod J Drive Y8                      1         480         480
Adv M Drive 2Q9                     1         174         696
Mod P Plant 2R9                     1         441         441
                                                             
Fuel, Jump                                   3636            
Fuel, Power                                 545,4            
Transfer Pump                                  36          18
Purifier                            3           3         1,5
Scoops                              3           3        0,15
Water Intake                        1           1        0,05
Ice Bin                             1           1        0,05
                                                             
Bridge                                                    9,4
    Control Console                 3           6         1,8
    Operating Console              17          34         5,1
    Computer m/7/fib                1          14         156
    Computer m/5/fib                3          30       60,75
    Computer m/0/bis/phot          20          10          15
                                                             
Other Consoles                                          32,07
    Control Console               126       182,7        75,6
    Operating Console              40          58          12
    Computer m/5/fib                3          30       60,75
    Computer m/0/bis/phot         100          50          75
                                                             
Sensors                                                      
Ult DS BAnt Commu-14 +21            1          30          13
Ult DS Ant Commu-14 +17             2           6          11
Pro DS Surf CommP-15 +10            2           0          10
Ult DS BAnt Radar-15 +21            1          30          13
Ult DS Ant Radar-15 +17             2           6          11
Imp DS BAnt EMS-15 +18              1          30          11
Ult DS BAnt Scope-15 +21            1          30          13
Ult DS Ant Scope-15 +17             2           6          11
Ear DS BAnt Visor-15 +16            1          30          12
Adv DS BAnt Neutr-15 +20            1          30          12
Adv DS Ant Neutr-15 +16             2           6           9
DS Ant Grav -15 +13                 1           3         3,5
Ult G BAnt Jamme-15 +14             1          40          15
Ult G Ant Jamme-15 +10              2           8          12
Imp DS BAnt Steal-15 +18            1          30          11
Imp DS Ant Steal-15 +14             2           6           7
                                                             
Crew:                      Comfort -2                        
Staterooms                        100         200          10
Freshers, Shared                   75        37,5        37,5
Common Areas                    362,5       362,5           0
Life Support:                                                
Med Console                        10           5           5
Auto-counsellor                     5           5           1
Clinic                              5          10           5
Life Support, Standard             80          80          80
Escape Capsules                    40          40          40
                                                             
Standard Air Lock                 100           0           0
                                                             
Cargo                                       268,5            
                                                             
Weapons                                                      
Mod DS B2 Part-15 +5               80        1200        1800
DS M Meso-15 +10                    1         600         105
Mod G B2 Data-15 +5                 2          40          50
Ult DS T4 Comm-14 +5                3           9        67,5
Ult SR T4 Comm-11 +5                6           3        94,5
Ult SR T4 SLM -13 +5               30          15       112,5
                                                             
Screens                                                      
Imp Vd B2 Nucle-15 +4               1          15          13
Gen Vd Surf Nucle-15 ±0             2           6           7
Imp D B2 Meson-15 +4                1          10          11
Gen D Surf Meson-15 ±0              2           4           7
                                                             
Carried Craft                                                
Hangar Cutter, Modular              2         120           0
Bracket Fighter                    10          10          10
                                                             
                                Crew     Consoles    Salaries
Crew                         200              172      471000
Command                       13               13       65000
Bridge                        12                2            
    Pilot                           4           2       24000
    Astrogator                      2           1       10000
    Sensor & EW                     6           6       18000
Engineer                      52                       148000
    Engineer                       32          16            
    Maintenance                    20                        
Service                       13                3       26000
    Admin                          10                        
    Medic                           3                        
Gunner                        41                        82000
    Gunner                         35         122            
    Screen                          6           4            
Specialists                    5                2       20000
Flight                        14                1       28000
Troops                        50                        50000

 

[aramis]

That's small for a circa 1100's destroyer, but a great proof of concept, Dilbert.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I'm afraid I still basically use the classifications in CT FS, with destroyers of a few kDt.

How large should a Destroyer respective Light Cruiser be?

 

[mike wightman]

I don't understand Aramis' comment either.

S:9 gives us examples of DE at 1000t, a DD at 3000t and a FE at 5000t.

Your example is closer in size to the ED of MT's Fighting Ships of the Shatterd Imperium, which are 10,000t.
There is also a 20,000t Fleet Escort in that same book...

 

[Condottiere]

Could be a future Zumwalt.

Inflation aside, three kay tonnes is typical for an Imperium destroyer.

There is a gap between five kay and however you define light cruiserage, though the Rim War era Confederation Navy Texas class class light cruiser weighs in at eight thousand tonnes.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Your example is closer in size to the ED of MT's Fighting Ships of the Shatterd Imperium, which are 10,000t.

I don't think we have to be so desperate as to look there...

I call everything smaller than a cruiser and larger than a frigate, a destroyer.

 

[McPerth]

How large should a Destroyer respective Light Cruiser be?

IIRC, at least in former OTU definitions, the main difference among a Light Cruiser and a Destroyer is not as much the size as it is the presence (or lacking) of a Spinal Gun.

Cruisers are described as the smaller ships to have Spinal Guns, while destroyers would be (by default) the largest ships without it. So, a 10000 tons ship without Spinal would be a Destroyer, while if it has it, it would be a Light Cruiser.

See that in WWII some Japanese Light Cruiser were nearly as small as some Destroyers, and there are current destroyers as big as Light Cruisers (albeit in this latter case the denomination is mainly for political reasons, Aramis told me some time ago).

 

[Condottiere]

Treaty definition of light cruiser eventually hinged on having maximum six inch calibre guns, regardless of actual tonnage, theoretically capped at ten thousand.

The lighter ones could have been tasked as flotilla leaders, or trade protection.

Size tended to depend on doctrine and likely utilization, since besides budget constraints, arms limitation treaties were also enforced.

 

[Ulsyus]

Class sizes may have crept downwards, or larger classes just not built, as conflict times increased and construction capacity was reduced due to war damage or resource/component availability. So a 10k destroyer may be on the big size, but perhaps cruisers could be more this displacement if the larger ones are harder to replace and the demand for hulls forces a change in policy.

That could be for another discussion though - policy driving strategy pushing tactics, etc.

 

[Condottiere]

The Zumwalts could be considered battlecruisers, and probably would have been, a century ago.

Size inflation is a fact, as each category of warship just had more capability packed into it. With the exception of the Littoral Combat Ship, where everyone wanted to have their cake and eat it too, by limiting tonnage and crew, creating a ship that isn't likely to survive combat, breaks down a lot, costs an incredible amount per tonne, and has to have private military contractors onboard to keep the ship systems running.

Political considerations become important for nomenclature, as it's easier to get funding for a largish destroyer, than smallish cruiser.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes, we have all read Fighting Ships.

I was asking why:

That's small for a circa 1100's destroyer, ...

 

[Selandia]

historically, every category saw its size increase.

Early frigate may have a dozen gun on the main deck, while later frigates get 44 with deck a tween deck batteries.
Since smaller ship than 32, 36,38, etc were needed, they created Corvette 20-30, and then 10-18 guns Brig and 8 guns Cutters. Somehow, we seem reluctants to see a future where alternative lesser categories are created.

From the functionnal angle, rather than mere size, the early torpedo boat were about 100 t, and finished in WWII at 700 while the TB Destroyers at 300t became 2000 t, forcing a down sized category of DE at 1400 in WWII while at the same time the growing of the Corvette from 950 t to 1250 made for the Frigate ( produced alongside the Escort Sloop of similar size).

The break between Destroyer Escort and the escorts Sloops was essentially torpedo weapons i.e. the ability to engage and cripple a capital ship. Actually, Lend-Lease Frigate of Captain class look a hell of a lot like DE w/o their torpedo tubes

Under that logic, Destroyers have a spinal mount and anything else is an escort to be classified in the traditionnal categories.

Have fun

Selandia

Somehow

 

[Condottiere]

For a guide on sizes, I look at the rules, and any advantages a particular tonnage would provide.

For the Mongoverse, there are quite a number speedbumps where being slightly over or under a specific volume does that, whether minimum size of ship systems, greater structural integrity, or being harder to target.

Where the Classic version would allow you to squeeze in a one kay tonne spinal mount in a fifteen hundred tonne hull, current rule set makes that closer to fifty eight hundred tonnes, since you can only devote half the hull tonnage to a spinal mount.

 

[Baithammer]

Could also be thought of as a cruiser escort, similar to a destroyer escort.