Blacker than black

[Spinward Scout]

Could you coat your starship with this stuff to not show up on sensors?

Black may not be, it turns out, the darkest shade — at least not black as we know it. British tech company Surrey Nanosystems says it's developed the world's blackest material: made of carbon nanotubes, it can absorb 99.96 percent of light that hits it. Its developers say that to the human eye, the material — called Vantablack — completely erases any features on a surface, becoming simply a void.

Arthur C. Clarke's description of the surface of the Monolith in 2001: A Space Odyssey was pretty similar. I think they should go redo the special effects for 2001 with this stuff.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/7/14/5...e-worlds-blackest-black-with-carbon-nanotubes

 

[Blue Ghost]

Had a friend who claimed that if he just "mirrored" his hull he would be invulnerable to all energy weapons.

 

[whulorigan]

Could you coat your starship with this stuff to not show up on sensors?

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Black may not be, it turns out, the darkest shade — at least not black as we know it. British tech company Surrey Nanosystems says it's developed the world's blackest material: made of carbon nanotubes, it can absorb 99.96 percent of light that hits it. Its developers say that to the human eye, the material — called Vantablack — completely erases any features on a surface, becoming simply a void. [/FONT]

The problem would not be the fact that the "Ultra-Black" does not reflect any light-wavelengths; the problem would be that your hull will be radiating heat at roughly room-temperature or higher (due to the internal environment and equipment waste-heat), which means that it is literally "glowing" in infra-red against an ultra-cold 2.7 K microwave background. On Earth we can talk about masking and stealth because the temperature of the background environment and the temperature of the object in question are roughly similar, and therefore the object might not necessarily "stand-out" against the background if done properly.

The situation for a spacecraft in deep space would be analogous to a perfectly "black" piece of metal on Earth being heated to several thousand degrees and glowing red-orange due to the heat-radiation. It would be like a lightbulb in an otherwise dark room.

 

[Reban]

I think it was a ship design system in T4 that had a hull coating option called "Blackbody" that did what Spinward's nanotube paint does. Of course iirc you couldn't enter the atmosphere with it because it would degrade and loose its radiation absorbing/non-reflecting quality.

Which reminds me of a USAF promotional video I saw recently for the F35 where an aircraft maintainer describes her job which is touching up the surface coating of the aircraft because "even a small scuff would wreck the aircrafts stealth and could cost lives".

Gone are the days when you could patch a bullet hole with some linen and glue

You could coat your spacecraft with Vantablack and be harder to spot in visible wavelenghts but 1) All the other space pilots would call you a Space Goth and 2) the Starport Authority would give you a ticket for not having any navigation lights on your ship.

 

[whulorigan]

I think it was a ship design system in T4 that had a hull coating option called "Blackbody" that did what Spinward's nanotube paint does.

T4's FF&S had two optional hull-coatings, as I recall:

1) Ultrablack
2) Military Ultrablack

 

[Dagrill]

The problem would not be the fact that the "Ultra-Black" does not reflect any light-wavelengths; the problem would be that your hull will be radiating heat at roughly room-temperature or higher (due to the internal environment and equipment waste-heat), which means that it is literally "glowing" in infra-red against an ultra-cold 2.7 K microwave background. On Earth we can talk about masking and stealth because the temperature of the background environment and the temperature of the object in question are roughly similar, and therefore the object might not necessarily "stand-out" against the background if done properly.

So you could hide in atmosphere or the sea, until TL12 ?

Regards

David

 

[whulorigan]

So you could hide in atmosphere or the sea, until TL12 ?

I am not sure what the TL-12 reference alludes to.

But yes, you could potentially hide in the atmosphere or sea of a habitable-zone planet (whose environment will be at roughly "room-temperature"), as long as you were not generating too much waste heat above background levels.

This is of course not taking into account any neutrino emissions form certain types of power-plants, or mass-signatures that would show up on gravitometer/densitometer.

EDIT: The thing to always keep in mind is the distinction between Active-Sensors and Passive-Sensors:

1) Active-Sensors are emitting their own signal and are typically looking for a "reflection" from the target object. Absorbent (or "non-reflective") coatings such as the one described by Spinward Scout are very useful in this regard, as they do not return a signal to the active-sensor. Radar is a good modern-day example. A radio-wave absorbent material (or one that causes radio-waves to be deflected at odd-angles) renders the target object hard to detect by radar.

2) Passive-Sensors are looking for emissions generated by the target object. The human eyeball is a fine example of a passive sensor that detects EM-radiation in the 380nm -760nm wavelength range. A passive sensor might detect a signal reflected off of the target originating from some other source, or might detect a signal natively generated by the target itself. A target generating an excessive signal above background might be perceived as a "bright" or "hot-spot", or a target generating below background might be picked out as a "dark" or "cold-spot".

 

[CosmicGamer]

I'm no science guru, but my understanding is that while the "super black" substance might make light not reflect it
a) still stands out in many visible settings - like a black rock on a sandy white beach
b) may not function at all on other energy wavelengths - like sonar which would still just bounce off, infrared which was mentioned and so on.

 

[Enoki]

I think it would depend on what the other party was looking for the ship with.

IR / UV / visual that might work.

ESM: You better not have any electronic emissions.

Active ESM: You have to ensure the vessel doesn't reflect electronic signals like radar.

Gravitational: If they are looking for mass or variations in gravitational fields.

Simply painting the ship to avoid visual detection probably won't work.

 

[flykiller]

even if a ship is entirely invisible to sensors - by whatever means this is accomplished - it will still occlude background stars and background cosmic radiation and thus produce a "hole in the sky".

oddly enough this is precisely where submarine detection is at today. modern systems can listen for the absence of sea-life displaced by the submarine's hull - to listen for the "hole in the water".

 

[BlackBat242]

I am not sure what the TL-12 reference alludes to.

But yes, you could potentially hide in the atmosphere or sea of a habitable-zone planet (whose environment will be at roughly "room-temperature"), as long as you were not generating too much waste heat above background levels.

......

2) Passive-Sensors are looking for emissions generated by the target object. The human eyeball is a fine example of a passive sensor that detects EM-radiation in the 380nm -760nm wavelength range. A passive sensor might detect a signal reflected off of the target originating from some other source, or might detect a signal natively generated by the target itself. A target generating an excessive signal above background might be perceived as a "bright" or "hot-spot", or a target generating below background might be picked out as a "dark" or "cold-spot".

This is already past at our current TL.

In 1978 the AN/AAS-33 Target Recognition Attack Multisensor system began to be installed in USN & USMC A-6E Intruder aircraft. This had a FLIR sensor and laser range-finder/designator.

The FLIR produced a TV-like picture - which showed temperature differences of "less than 1 degree Fahrenheit"*.

This even showed the difference in temp produced by the different colors of the Marine's camouflage uniform after a few minutes in bright sun (yes, I've seen it, as I worked on that system in the USMC in the 1980s).


This means that even in atmosphere that light-absorbing paint would glow like a fire to even a TL6/7 IR sensor!



* <.4 degree difference in reality.

 

[whulorigan]

This is already past at our current TL.

In 1978 the AN/AAS-33 Target Recognition Attack Multisensor system began to be installed in USN & USMC A-6E Intruder aircraft. This had a FLIR sensor and laser range-finder/designator.

The FLIR produced a TV-like picture - which showed temperature differences of "less than 1 degree Fahrenheit"*.

This even showed the difference in temp produced by the different colors of the Marine's camouflage uniform after a few minutes in bright sun (yes, I've seen it, as I worked on that system in the USMC in the 1980s).


This means that even in atmosphere that light-absorbing paint would glow like a fire to even a TL6/7 IR sensor!

For an atmospheric or fluid environment, can you speculate on some type of "stealth" that might work to counter this, given speculative higher TLs that are currently above our TL-8 ability?

 

[Tobias]

Had a friend who claimed that if he just "mirrored" his hull he would be invulnerable to all energy weapons.

One of my players claimed the exact same thing... o:

 

[Spinward Scout]

Had a friend who claimed that if he just "mirrored" his hull he would be invulnerable to all energy weapons.

One of my players claimed the exact same thing... o:

Trying to simulate "Reflec" armor?

 

[Carlobrand]

Had a friend who claimed that if he just "mirrored" his hull he would be invulnerable to all energy weapons.

Did you educate him, or were you merciful?

 

[Putraack]

Off on a tangent: when one of my groups was saving money and working unsavory jobs to install refit stealthing gear on their starship, they code-named it the "little black dress."

 

[Theophilus]

In a similiar vain, during the mid 80's David Keen developed a material called "signaflux", He was trying to develop a polymer adhesive that would conduct electricity by cracking carbon-60 atoms and inserting metal ions. While trying to dry the polymer material in a microwave he discovered that the material would not cure, but became hot, indicating that it was absorbing the microwave's and releasing heat. This material was developed into the stealth material used on aircraft, it absorbs radar, but releases it as infra-red radiation. He also developed a sniper bullet from the same material, since radar allowed you to track the bullet back to the snipers position.

So while the material may be blacker than black, it might also glow brighter than white in certain regions of the spectrum.

 

[BlackBat242]

For an atmospheric or fluid environment, can you speculate on some type of "stealth" that might work to counter this, given speculative higher TLs that are currently above our TL-8 ability?

Not really. Either you radiate the heat or you bottle it up inside your ship, via surface-cooling equipment. The last results in an ever-hotter vessel - unless you develop some way to eliminate that energy.

Either you periodically dump the energy (via energy discharge such as firing lasers, etc) or you convert it to stored energy that can be used to power systems - but that usually still ends up returning the energy to the ship in the form of heat generated by the operation of the equipment you are powering.

If you are absorbing the light/radar/whatever, you are increasing the total energy component of your vessel - it must eventually be discharged or it will overheat your vessel.

 

[mike wightman]

Traveller's most secret technology - the waste heat to artificial gravity and acceleration compensation generator

 

[ShapeShifter]

Had a friend who claimed that if he just "mirrored" his hull he would be invulnerable to all energy weapons.

Who knew that the ne plus ultra in space vehicles was hanging right over our heads at the local discotheque? :rofl:

Since we're talking about a fantasy version of spacey stuff, wouldn't it be more productive to think about -- not attempting to hide from sensors -- but rather making hostile, nosey sensors think that we are an irrelevant body, like a stellar remnant, a rogue planet, a drifting mass of ejected trash from a passing passenger liner, a cloud of dust, an asteroid, or like whales humping or some seismic anomaly?