CT Only: Book 2 Starship Economics Spreadsheets.

[creativehum]

Does anyone know of any prebuilt apps or spreadsheets for plugging in the values of starships (Size, Drives, and so on) as well as expenses (Fuel costs, Salaries, and so on) and income (Cargo, Passengers) to track profit and loss for a ship from jump to jump?

Also: I mislabeled the Thread Title. I should have been more precise and named it "Book 2 Starship Economics Spreadsheets."

I'm not looking to add in details from later books. (If such items from later books can be set to 0, however, that would be fine.)

Thanks!

 

[aramis]

not for tracking, but, I do have something useful for working out the general expenses:
travellerrpg.com/tools/shipecon0_2.shtml

 

[creativehum]

not for tracking, but, I do have something useful for working out the general expenses:
travellerrpg.com/tools/shipecon0_2.shtml

Dude, that's awesome!

The exterminator had to come over, and while he was working away I slapped together an Excel Spreadsheet of my own. But you've given me a couple of things to think about.

I'm going to expand the generic version to handle different Adventure Class Ships with some data and ship info on each separate page. (One thing I have added is a Jump Factor Multiplier (1, or .2, .3, .4 in case a ship uses less fuel on Jumps shorter than the ship's full drive.)

 

[aramis]

Undocumented feature - you can construct a string in the URL to preload it...

 

[creativehum]

I'm currently working on the Cargo/Passengers Spreadsheet. (You type in the Origin and Destination World Pops and Tech Level, and the sheet spits out the respective Cargo Lots and Passengers for each destination world available from the world of origin.)

Comparing the 1977 rules and the 1981 rules, I notice differences:

1. For Cargo in the 1977 rules one rolls a number of D6 equal to the Origin World, with each die value representing 5tons worth of a cargo lot. All cargo is the same; there is no distinction between Major, Minor, and Incidental Lots.
2. For Cargo in the 1977 rules there are no DMs based on Destination World Pop, nor on the difference between Tech Levels.

I'm assuming the 1981 rules were altered with insights gleaned from play in the years between the 1971 edition and the 1981 edition.

Still, I'm curious about the differences. I'm wondering if anyone who has dug into this more than me has any insights into how the applications of the 1977 and 1981 results are different. What are the effective differences? What were the effects in practice?

 

[ffilz]

I'm currently working on the Cargo/Passengers Spreadsheet. (You type in the Origin and Destination World Pops and Tech Level, and the sheet spits out the respective Cargo Lots and Passengers for each destination world available from the world of origin.)

Comparing the 1977 rules and the 1981 rules, I notice differences:

1. For Cargo in the 1977 rules one rolls a number of D6 equal to the Origin World, with each die value representing 5tons worth of a cargo lot. All cargo is the same; there is no distinction between Major, Minor, and Incidental Lots.
2. For Cargo in the 1977 rules there are no DMs based on Destination World Pop, nor on the difference between Tech Levels.

I'm assuming the 1981 rules were altered with insights gleaned from play in the years between the 1971 edition and the 1981 edition.

Still, I'm curious about the differences. I'm wondering if anyone who has dug into this more than me has any insights into how the applications of the 1977 and 1981 results are different. What are the effective differences? What were the effects in practice?

Hmm, lots of interesting differences here, now called out in my comparison document. There are also differences in the passenger tables. All of these differences are rather complex to completely analyze.

We should be able to write a program that would show the average cargo a given size hold would be able to fill using each system, the likelihood of say a 90% or higher capacity load (which will probably be higher in 1981 with the minor cargoes, at least when there is enough cargo at all to fill the hold). The minor cargoes also mean a Scout ship might actually find a cargo to carry...

 

[creativehum]

Hmm, lots of interesting differences here, now called out in my comparison document. There are also differences in the passenger tables. All of these differences are rather complex to completely analyze.

We should be able to write a program that would show the average cargo a given size hold would be able to fill using each system, the likelihood of say a 90% or higher capacity load (which will probably be higher in 1981 with the minor cargoes, at least when there is enough cargo at all to fill the hold). The minor cargoes also mean a Scout ship might actually find a cargo to carry...

My general, eye-balling assessment is that:

• 1981 offers more cargo for ships to carry
• The three discrete sizes of lots (especially from higher Pop worlds with incidental cargo) means that the a ship has a better chance of filling up its hold to capacity rather than having to leave with empty space due to the lots not fitting together correctly

But as for really doing up the comparison... my mind boggles.

I'm going to assume the 1981 rules offered more cargo on purpose to allow ships a chance to survive and be content with that.

 

[ffilz]

My general, eye-balling assessment is that:

• 1981 offers more cargo for ships to carry
• The three discrete sizes of lots (especially from higher Pop worlds with incidental cargo) means that the a ship has a better chance of filling up its hold to capacity rather than having to leave with empty space due to the lots not fitting together correctly

But as for really doing up the comparison... my mind boggles.

I'm going to assume the 1981 rules offered more cargo on purpose to allow ships a chance to survive and be content with that.

Yea, that's probably a reason here to use 1981, you have pointed out some other interesting differences where 1977 may be a better choice for my setting.

Hmm, an interesting thought, use 1981 charts into or out of a well established space polity, and the 1977 charts otherwise...

I was wondering if space lanes should come into play, but I think not. Obviously if there was a lot of shipping interest between two worlds not connected by a space lane, one would be established, on the other hand, since very few ships are going to those worlds not connected by a space lane, if a ship advertises that destination, folks are going to jump in with cargoes assuming there is any reason at all for trade (something the GM may of course always establish as different from what the rules suggest).

 

[creativehum]

Yea, that's probably a reason here to use 1981, you have pointed out some other interesting differences where 1977 may be a better choice for my setting.

Hmm, an interesting thought, use 1981 charts into or out of a well established space polity, and the 1977 charts otherwise...

I was wondering if space lanes should come into play, but I think not. Obviously if there was a lot of shipping interest between two worlds not connected by a space lane, one would be established, on the other hand, since very few ships are going to those worlds not connected by a space lane, if a ship advertises that destination, folks are going to jump in with cargoes assuming there is any reason at all for trade (something the GM may of course always establish as different from what the rules suggest).

I just spent a minute hitting the Recalculate button on my Cargo spreadsheet.

A couple of things:

I'm not sure if it is a matter of more cargo in 1981. Two things that stand out are:

1. It's a hell of a lot more random in 1981. In 1977 you roll a number of D6 (each a cargo lot) equal to World Pop. The progression is dependable and blunt. In 1981 you make die rolls that involve 1D6-1D6 or 2D6-1D6 and what not. The range of results is becomes really wide even for the Origin Worlds of the same pop.
2. 1977 rules have no DMs for destination world, either through the destination world's pop or TL. The 1981 rules have DMs for both. And let me tell you something: They matter. A Destination World of Pop 4- is going to get hit with a DM -4 on the rolls for the number of Major, Minor and Incidental lots. That DM is enough to produce cargo lot results of 0 in all three categories from Origin World Pops of 5 down, and cut deeply into the results of Origin World 5 up.

If there is a significant difference between Tech Levels that is going to matter as well. Yes, a ship will have a full belly heading to a low tech world. But outward bound, a spread of 5 points between the TL will once again gut available cargo lots.

And if you are leaving a Pop 4- world with a low TL difference to the destination world... forget about it.

This suggests to me that per the Basic Traveller rules, concerns about lots of trade and influence of tech moving between worlds doesn't make a lot of sense. Type M Liners are not going to waste time heading out to the boonies. And even smaller ships are taking a risk financial hit in heading to certain worlds.

Given the variable results the 1981 tables can produce, any captain trying to increase odds in his favor will make sure to travel back and forth between high Pop worlds and try to find a balance of worlds at relatively the similar TLs.

Trade is limited, per the rules. Many worlds won't see lots of ships showing up, and those that do will more often than not be seeing goods arriving that are similar in TL to their own planet's TL.

This all makes sense to me in terms of how I've saw Classic Traveller's implied setting build out. But it is not the high-traffic, high-trade setting of the Third Imperium.

Final note: The skill DMs found in Book 7 help modify the Book 2 results, bringing the setting of the OTU and the rules into closer alignment.

 

[ffilz]

Hmm, interesting...

I wonder if it actually doesn't make sense to apply the TL mods. That suggests a trade imbalance INTO lower tech worlds, which really doesn't make sense, what are they paying for all those high tech imports? Not that there's that many imports, but still, if they don't export anything (other than by virtue of speculative trade), then they don't have interstellar cash to buy the stuff shipped there...

Hmm, and speculative trade is not affected by TL at all.

Ok, maybe back to 1977...

 

[creativehum]

Hmm, interesting...

I wonder if it actually doesn't make sense to apply the TL mods. That suggests a trade imbalance INTO lower tech worlds, which really doesn't make sense, what are they paying for all those high tech imports? Not that there's that many imports, but still, if they don't export anything (other than by virtue of speculative trade), then they don't have interstellar cash to buy the stuff shipped there...

Hmm, and speculative trade is not affected by TL at all.

Ok, maybe back to 1977...

Well, as many have gone on at length to discuss on the PC Homeworld and TL thread, many third world nations will have high end tech goods available. The wealthy members of a low TL world will still buy the spiffiest gadgets if they are available.

We can also assume that certain off-world or native organizations (governments, corporations, religious institutions, rebels, whatever) are working to bring high gadget technology to the world to support whatever cause they are concerned about.

But here's the the thing: Just because the Cargo could go to that low tech world, doesn't mean it will. Again, the ship then has to leave the low tech world, risking an empty cargo hold when they depart. And crew of any kind of ship will have to decide if those goods will be heading to that lot tech world -- and a lot of times the answer will be "No." So, even if the odds are good for higher tech good to go to low tech worlds, that doesn't mean such cargos will travel.

As for how they pay... natural resources, labor, assembly of products that they can't afford. There is always some interesting SF premise to justify this stuff and help build a unique world.

 

[ffilz]

Well, as many have gone on at length to discuss on the PC Homeworld and TL thread, many third world nations will have high end tech goods available. The wealthy members of a low TL world will still buy the spiffiest gadgets if they are available.

We can also assume that certain off-world or native organizations (governments, corporations, religious institutions, rebels, whatever) are working to bring high gadget technology to the world to support whatever cause they are concerned about.

But here's the the thing: Just because the Cargo could go to that low tech world, doesn't mean it will. Again, the ship then has to leave the low tech world, risking an empty cargo hold when they depart. And crew of any kind of ship will have to decide if those goods will be heading to that lot tech world -- and a lot of times the answer will be "No." So, even if the odds are good for higher tech good to go to low tech worlds, that doesn't mean such cargos will travel.

As for how they pay... natural resources, labor, assembly of products that they can't afford. There is always some interesting SF premise to justify this stuff and help build a unique world.

But those natural resources, or assembled products result in cargo to be shipped FROM the lower tech world to a higher tech world...

One question comes down to how much organized shipping is there? The rules imply not much (in the setting of play), so if folks are relying on the opportunity travel to ship their good, then it seems like they would arrange for some way to pay for the goods shipped there that results in cargo to be shipped off world.

In the end, my thought is the attempt to factor tech level in leads to too much discussion of the logic of the whole thing compared to 1977. I think the addition of destination population does make sense (and in 1977 that was already factored into passenger traffic, so logical for it to extend to cargo traffic). Note also that the population affect doesn't create a directional imbalance since less cargo goes to low pop worlds and comes from low pop worlds.

Dunno, I'm just having a hard time justifying anything about the actual effect of the tech level mods...

 

[creativehum]

But those natural resources, or assembled products result in cargo to be shipped FROM the lower tech world to a higher tech world...

One question comes down to how much organized shipping is there? The rules imply not much (in the setting of play), so if folks are relying on the opportunity travel to ship their good, then it seems like they would arrange for some way to pay for the goods shipped there that results in cargo to be shipped off world.

In the end, my thought is the attempt to factor tech level in leads to too much discussion of the logic of the whole thing compared to 1977. I think the addition of destination population does make sense (and in 1977 that was already factored into passenger traffic, so logical for it to extend to cargo traffic). Note also that the population affect doesn't create a directional imbalance since less cargo goes to low pop worlds and comes from low pop worlds.

Dunno, I'm just having a hard time justifying anything about the actual effect of the tech level mods...

My quick reply is that the resources leave low tech worlds via Trade and Speculation. Which means it is still rare. And still risky for the crew conducting it. But it does happen. My only point would be most starship crews would rather find a safe run than dabble in speculation. But there are crews willing to take a stab at it.

 

[aramis]

My general, eye-balling assessment is that:

• 1981 offers more cargo for ships to carry
• The three discrete sizes of lots (especially from higher Pop worlds with incidental cargo) means that the a ship has a better chance of filling up its hold to capacity rather than having to leave with empty space due to the lots not fitting together correctly

But as for really doing up the comparison... my mind boggles.

I'm going to assume the 1981 rules offered more cargo on purpose to allow ships a chance to survive and be content with that.

All the changes make the Type M a viable ship for "Per Jump" pricing.

 

[ffilz]

My quick reply is that the resources leave low tech worlds via Trade and Speculation. Which means it is still rare. And still risky for the crew conducting it. But it does happen. My only point would be most starship crews would rather find a safe run than dabble in speculation. But there are crews willing to take a stab at it.

Ok, that makes sense. This is definitely an area I need to do some more thinking and maybe some analysis before deciding which version to use...

 

[kilemall]

Hmm, interesting...

I wonder if it actually doesn't make sense to apply the TL mods. That suggests a trade imbalance INTO lower tech worlds, which really doesn't make sense, what are they paying for all those high tech imports? Not that there's that many imports, but still, if they don't export anything (other than by virtue of speculative trade), then they don't have interstellar cash to buy the stuff shipped there...

Hmm, and speculative trade is not affected by TL at all.

Ok, maybe back to 1977...

I always assumed that made the low tech planets net importers by value, and net exporters of raw resources, food or labor-intensive cultural trinkets to pay for their imports.

But in that case you would expect more exporting tonnage as a lot more lower value cargo has to be outbound.

That's where a more shipping sim approach would probably have cutrate rates leaving such planets, so it's affordable to ship low value bulk out.

Or maybe the subsidized merchants handle such trade 'offstage'.

The TL on speculation is an issue. I would think major negative values like on IND/AG/NA worlds would indicate manufacture/harvest/environment surplus production and therefore TL of manufacture would be a value, positive or negative.

The LBB7 solution was less then elegant, or exciting.

 

[creativehum]

If anyone is interested, here are two spreadsheets in one document.

Nothing fancy to look at, but they get the job done. (Microsoft Workbook for Mac, xlsx. I have no idea if this ports easily to PCs. If not, sorry!)

It is only for Book 2 DMs. But as a template folks could add in more DMs as desired.

The first is for expenses and revenue for starships. One enters the Units of each item (or the amounts, when it comes to allocating for Maintenance and Mortgage) and it should do the rest. Only enter at items that are italicized. Other items will be calculated for you. (For example, "Total Crew" is not italicized, and will be calculated from crew positions one enters. There's no need to type in anything for Total Crew.)

The second calculates Cargo and Passengers available on a given world.

In the top box type in the Origin World Pop and TL and the Destination World Pop and TL. The spreadsheet does the rest.

Note that the box for Origin World Pop does nothing for the calculations, but I included it both for design and for reference: When you scan down down on the two large table underneath that will be the row number you'll be referencing.

The tables on the right hand side involving DMs for Pop and TL don't need to be touched. They are there for transparency... but the inputs are in that first box at the top.

When making calculations world by available world that the ship can reach in a jump, the Referee should type in the new values in the first box, and make notes on two sheets of paper. The first is Cargo, the second is Passengers. When all available worlds are calculated, the Referee should hand the Cargo sheet of paper to the Players for them to decide which world they want to go to.

Then, once they have decided on the world, the Referee will glance down at his list of passengers according to world, and tell the Players how many passengers they get.

This is according to the rules process, wherein Cargo is determined first, the crew selects a world to carry cargo to, announces which world they are going to, and then gathers Passengers to that world.

I haven't had time to go back and do a thorough proofing. But I think I'm on my way. Something simple to generate the numbers so I can use the rules but not get bogged down in play every time.