CT Only: Book 2 Starships Military/Quasi-Military Ships

[snrdg082102]

Morning all,

I picked the 600-ton Zhodani Escort on pages 40-41 of CT AM 4 as the basic model of Zhodani trader mentioned in the adventure in CT AM 3.

Using High Guard Shipyard HGS) Version 2.0.0.13 which returned 5 engineers versus the 4 required on CT AM 4 page 41. The final cost calculated in HGS and the correction found on page 41 of the Consolidated CT Errata v 0.8 doesn't match either.

I then used a spreadsheet version of the design sequence found in the FFE soft cover book that has CT Book 5 High Guard 1980. The crew count matches and probably due to rounding errors on my part the final price is off.

Going through FFE CT Book 2 Starships 1981 my final tonnage matched that listed for the Zhodani escort. My cost was off which is something I'm still trying to figure out and may have out why the cost is off.

CT Book 2 Starships page 6 in Starship Malfunctions states that "Military and quasi-military ships often use unrefined fuel because it is more available, and their drives are specially built to use it."

I have dug through the book and checked the latest Consolidated CT Errata 0.8 without finding any mention of what modifiers using the specially designed military drives has on cost, tons, or changes to the malfunction results.

Is there any mention of modifiers for the specially designed military drive and could someone kindly provide the book and page number please?

 

[McPerth]

Just a point here:

Remember the story told in AM3 occurred long ago, and the Zhodani were not yet TL14 (but at least TL 12 if we assume HG basis, as they were Jump 3.

This will not have much impact if you use purely LBB2 designs, but will if you use HG design system (larger PP, etc...)

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello McPerth,

Than you for the reply.

Just a point here:

Remember the story told in AM3 occurred long ago, and the Zhodani were not yet TL14 (but at least TL 12 if we assume HG basis, as they were Jump 3.

The reason I ran the High Guard design system first was to check to see if the price change for the Zhodani Escort found in Consolidated CT Errata 0.8 came from CT Book 5 High Guard (HG).

Then I wanted to see how close a spreadsheet I built would match both the High Guard Shipyard (HGS) and/or CT AM 4 numbers.

Of course my numbers for the most part agreed with HGS with the usual exception of the cost.

This will not have much impact if you use purely LBB2 designs, but will if you use HG design system (larger PP, etc...)

My attempt at using CT Book 2 Starships came about when the other attempts with HG and HGS didn't match the cost of the hull as written in CT AM 4 or the corrected price from the Consolidated CT Errata.

Using CT Book 2 Starships I was able to match the numbers for tons, with the exception of being 40 tons over the engineering space of 85 tons. My price on the cost was close to that listed on CT AM 4 page 41, but is way off from the corrected price.

Unless I have totally messed up the math, a possibility I will admit too;-), the only item I have not accounted for is the military or quasi-military drive.

Are there any additions or subtractions that the military or quasi-military drive provide to either a jump or a malfunction?

My body is trying to take a nap so I'll end for now and again thanks for answering.

 

[Vladika]

Using CT Book 2 Starships I was able to match the numbers for tons, with the exception of being 40 tons over the engineering space of 85 tons. My price on the cost was close to that listed on CT AM 4 page 41, but is way off from the corrected price.

I don't have everything needed to help with this but do have a suggestion.

If your engineering space is over by 40 tonnes you can't use a standard hull and need to pay more for a custom hull by using CT.

Also, the ship you are reverse engineering may, or may not, have used the volume discount.

Either are possible discrepancy points.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Vladika,

I don't have everything needed to help with this but do have a suggestion.

If your engineering space is over by 40 tonnes you can't use a standard hull and need to pay more for a custom hull by using CT.

Also, the ship you are reverse engineering may, or may not, have used the volume discount.

Either are possible discrepancy points.

Thanks for adding a couple of possibilities as to why I'm a bit off in reverse engineering the Zhodani Escort. Of course the suggested reasons entered my fuzzy headed thoughts since there was no mention of customizing the hull.

Do you have any knowledge of what affects selecting a military and quasi-military drive that is specially built to use unrefined fuel would have on the tons and cost from the use of unrefined fuel?

Off the top of my fuzzy little head I think cost would go up. I'm waffling on increasing the space needed.

I stumbled across the following on page 6 of the Starship Malfunctions section in CT Book 2 Starships:

Drive Failures: +1 if using unrefined fuel (and not equipped to do so)
Misjump: +1 if using unrefined fuel (and not equipped to do so)

Now I have an answer, thank you Vladika for the help, that selecting a military drive drops the positive DM from the malfunction roll.

 

[Vladika]

Do you have any knowledge of what affects selecting a military and quasi-military drive that is specially built to use unrefined fuel would have on the tons and cost from the use of unrefined fuel?

Tom, I've never seen it in any of the CT LBBs. It seems that it's just a given. HG sort of changed that with Fuel Purifiers though.

Before HG you just got a better drive than civilians did if you were military or a scout.

 

[Timerover51]

Tom, I've never seen it in any of the CT LBBs. It seems that it's just a given. HG sort of changed that with Fuel Purifiers though.

Before HG you just got a better drive than civilians did if you were military or a scout.

The problem comes about at that is not reflected in either the cost, mass, or volume of the drive. Nor is it stated that you cannot purchase a military-spec drive for a civilian ships, if all other factors are identical.

In LBB2 Starships, there is no real distinction between building a military ship verses a civilian ship. There should be.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening again Vladika,

Tom, I've never seen it in any of the CT LBBs. It seems that it's just a given. HG sort of changed that with Fuel Purifiers though.

Before HG you just got a better drive than civilians did if you were military or a scout.

Now that you mention it I realize I subconsciously translated the often in "Military and quasi-military ships often use unrefined fuel because it is more available, and their drives are specially built to use it." to mean that not all "military and quasi-military ships" had the specially built drives.

An additional reason is that most support ships used in the military are commercial hulls.

Thanks again.

I saved the spreadsheet I did as a PDF that shows the results for the design using Ct Book 2 Starships design sequence. If you would like I can send a copy of the PDF, Windows Excel 2010 or OpenOffice Calc (which appears to be working) spreadsheet. via email to check my numbers.

My cost is MCr 386.46135, CT AM 4 has the cost as 383.46165, and the Consolidated CT Errata has the cost as 397.67. At least I am between the two numbers for a change, usually I'm way under or way over.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

I may have figured out why the Zhodani Escort CT AM 4 pages 40-41 doesn't match CT Book 2 Starships (CT Bk2) design requirement for the Drives of taking up 85 tons of space in a 600 ton hull and the difference in the engineer crew requirement in CT Book 5 High Guard 2 (CT Bk5.

Vladika suggested that the Zhodani escort was a customized hull which appears to be the case in away. The CT Bk5 Drives section, page 22, states that the standard drives from CT Bk2 can be used if they otherwise meet the requirements at their fuel formulas.

The CT AM 4 Zhodani Escort appears to use CT Bk2 for the drives and CT Bk5 ship design requirements that do not split the hull's tons between the main compartment and drives section.

Thank you Vladika pointing me in, what appears to be the right direction, solving the difference when I tried using CT Book 2 to check the design.

Oh, Andrea I may have found an addition, probably not a simple one, for your next update to the High Guard Shipyard application.;-)

 

[rancke]

Vladika suggested that the Zhodani escort was a customized hull which appears to be the case in away. The CT Bk5 Drives section, page 22, states that the standard drives from CT Bk2 can be used if they otherwise meet the requirements at their fuel formulas.

For verisimilitude the Zhodani ought to have different standards anyway. I mean, it's certainly conceivable that every major race in Charted Space came up with the same standard hull sizes (multiples of the minimum hull size¹), but there's no reason that I can see that the Zhodani couldn't have standard 300 and 500 and 700 T designs. Or 150 and 350T designs for that matter. And standard jump drives that are geared for multipla of 150T or of 300T.

By and large I'm inclined to think that the Zhodani using the CT ship design system standards have more to do with meta-reasons than with in-game reasons.

¹ And what a useful coincidence that the minimum just happens to be 100 times an arbitrary Terran measurement. :devil:​

Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning PST Rancke (aka Hans)

For verisimilitude the Zhodani ought to have different standards anyway. I mean, it's certainly conceivable that every major race in Charted Space came up with the same standard hull sizes (multiples of the minimum hull size¹), but there's no reason that I can see that the Zhodani couldn't have standard 300 and 500 and 700 T designs. Or 150 and 350T designs for that matter. And standard jump drives that are geared for multipla of 150T or of 300T.

By and large I'm inclined to think that the Zhodani using the CT ship design system standards have more to do with meta-reasons than with in-game reasons.

¹ And what a useful coincidence that the minimum just happens to be 100 times an arbitrary Terran measurement. :devil:​

Hans

I go along with you that the various intelligent beings in Traveller have different standards of measurements and whatnot.

My take is that the people at GDW wanted to keep things a simple as possible so they set one standard and, IIRC, provides some modification to the starship design process in the Alien Modules for some of the races.

Of course I am also a lazy lout and anything that makes designing easier for multiple intelligent beings is my cup of tea.;-)

 

[mike wightman]

Zhodani Escort (type ZE): Using a custom 600t-hull, the Zhodani Escort is a military vessel employed in patrol and commerce protection roles along the frontier. It mounts jump drive- J, maneuver drive-Q, and power plant-Q, giving a performance of jump-3 and 5G acceleration. Fuel tankage for 230 tons supports the power plant and one jump-3.

Pretty clearly a LBB2 design from the word go, as are most of the ships in the Alien Module series.
If you try and build them using HG you will find many differences.
The Q drives indicate a minimum TL of 13.

I'd just go with the LBB2 design sequence.

As to the military drives being able to use unrefined fuel there were never any design rules for this, it's just fluff text you can apply to any design that you designate as using military grade drives.

It's a shame they never included a sentence or two to say military grade drives cost more and possibly more crew for maintenance purposes.

It's on my list for an update of LBB2 design

 

[Vladika]

As to the military drives being able to use unrefined fuel there were never any design rules for this, it's just fluff text you can apply to any design that you designate as using military grade drives.

It's a shame they never included a sentence or two to say military grade drives cost more and possibly more crew for maintenance purposes.

It's on my list for an update of LBB2 design

I forbid military drives to all but...military.

 

[mike wightman]

What about scout ships though :CoW:

 

[Vladika]

What about scout ships though :CoW:

Well, yeah, just forgot to type them in. But they are quasi military anyway.

 

[rancke]

I forbid military drives to all but...military.

But do you charge extra for the extra capability of military drives? That's what Mike said ought to be done (and I agree with him) but isn't.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

But do you charge extra for the extra capability of military drives? That's what Mike said ought to be done (and I agree with him) but isn't.


Hans

I think it should, but stick with the rules as written.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Mike Wightman,

Pretty clearly a LBB2 design from the word go, as are most of the ships in the Alien Module series.
If you try and build them using HG you will find many differences.
The Q drives indicate a minimum TL of 13.

Have you reversed engineered the Zhodani as a standard hull or a custom hull?

I followed the design checklist on page 23 using the Standard Hulls and Drives and Power Plants Tables on page 22.

Per the Standard Hulls Table a standard 600-ton hull allocates 85 tons of space for drives and 515 tons in the main compartment.

From the Drives and Power Plants Table a Jump Drive-J uses 50 tons, a Maneuver Drive uses 29 tons and a Power Plant-Q uses 46 tons which adds up to 50 + 29 + 46 = 79 + 26 = 125 tons.

At this point the Zhodani escort violates a standard hull rules since 40 tons of the power plant can't fit into the drives section. However the main compartment has 120 tons of space available with 80 tons allocated for cargo leaving 40 tons.

To get around the rule the ship would need to be a custom hull which means the hull cost goes from MCr48 to 600 x MCr0.1 = to MCr60. Adding MCr12 to the base cost changes the final cost.

My cost changed a little bit for a standard hull and is MCr389.3385 which is different from the one listed in CT AM 4 at MCr383.46165 and Consolidated CT Errata page 40 of MCr397.67. To be honest I have never been able to match a published design's cost even though in this case I was able to fill the hull even though I wasn't successful in getting the drives and power plant to fit into 85-tons of space.

I'd just go with the LBB2 design sequence.

If the stipulation for the standard hull spilt between the main compartment and drive section went away I would go with LBB2 100%, as the rules stand now the Zhodani escort in my opinion is broken.

I am now working to modify a LBB5 spreadsheet I created, since latest version of High Guard Shipyard in my files does not appear to take into account using LBB2 drives in hulls less than or equal to 5,000 tons.

I will post the results if I get any, the modification process is not going well since I keep breaking things.

As to the military drives being able to use unrefined fuel there were never any design rules for this, it's just fluff text you can apply to any design that you designate as using military grade drives.

It's a shame they never included a sentence or two to say military grade drives cost more and possibly more crew for maintenance purposes.

It's on my list for an update of LBB2 design

While the fluff text did not modify the design process it did help in modifying the DMs on malfunctions due to using unrefined fuel. I wish I would have remembered the fluff in at least a couple games that the die roll wouldn't have resulted in a misjump and/or drive failure.

Thanks for your help.

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy Rancke, Vladika, and Mike Wightman,

I agree that having a military drive should modify the existing tons and costs, but until the rules get officially modified I won't mess with them. I have problems enough trying to recreate the published designs now.

I don't agree with the restricting military grade drives to just the military and quasi-military since military hulls can be sold out of service or be gotten some other way that may or may not be legal.

Thanks to all three of you for the help.

 

[mike wightman]

It does say "using a custom 600t hull" in the first sentence, bit of a giveaway that it's built using a custom hull , so the main compartment/engineering compartment split can be anything you need to fit in the drives.