• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Can you build an LBB2 Gazelle CE?

Ran Targas

Ran Targas

SOC-14 1K
Okay, maybe I'm just exposing my poor breeding and inter-collegiately acknowledged lack of mathematical prowess, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how to squeeze J5 and M5 drives for a 400dT ship into a 300dT even with an extra 100dT of fuel.

M5J5 for 400dT = 105dT
M5J5 fuel for 400dT = 250dT - 100dT for the drop tanks = 150dT

So shoehorning this into a 300dT hull (105 + 150 = 255dT) leaves you with a whole 45dT for crew and weapons. If you subtract the weight of the prerequisite 20dT gig, you have only 25dT. Do the crew eat, sleep, and fight from the bridge?

So, is it possible to build a similar CE using LBB2 rules?
 
Ran Targas said:
Okay, maybe I'm just exposing my poor breeding and inter-collegiately acknowledged lack of mathematical prowess, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how to squeeze J5 and M5 drives for a 400dT ship into a 300dT even with an extra 100dT of fuel.

M5J5 for 400dT = 105dT
M5J5 fuel for 400dT = 250dT - 100dT for the drop tanks = 150dT

So shoehorning this into a 300dT hull (105 + 150 = 255dT) leaves you with a whole 45dT for crew and weapons. If you subtract the weight of the prerequisite 20dT gig, you have only 25dT. Do the crew eat, sleep, and fight from the bridge?

So, is it possible to build a similar CE using LBB2 rules?
Click to expand...

I guess I'm missing something, but the Gazelle is a 400 ton ship with Jump-4 and Maneuver-4. Clearly, the original (JTAS 4) Gazelle was designed with High Guard (it has an armored hull, nuclear dampers and particle accelerators, none of which are in LBB2). When the 100 ton drop tank is removed, it becomes a 300 ton ship.

LBB4 does not have 300 ton hulls, so 300 ton ships are treated as 400 ton ships on the drive potential chart. Thus, there is no real benefit to a 400 ton ship dropping a 100 ton drop tank.

You can design a LBB2 analogue to the Gazelle (minus the drop tank capability):

Gazelle (Gazelle class)

The Gazelle is based on a 400T, custom hull. It mounts jump drive H, maneuver drive H, and power plant H, giving a performance of jump-4 and 4-G acceleration. Fuel tankage for 200 tons supports the power plant allowing for 1 jump-4 and 4 weeks of operation. Adjacent to the bridge is a computer Model/3.
The ship has the following accommodations:
8 stateroom(s)
The ship has 4 hardpoints and 4 tons allocated to fire control. Installed on the hardpoints are:
4 triple turret(s)
The turret(s) are armed with:
12 beam laser(s)
There are 1 ship's vehicles:
1 launch(s)
Cargo capacity is 36 tons. The hull is not streamlined. The ship is not subsidized.

The Gazelle requires a minimum crew of 9:
1 pilot
1 navigator
2 engineer(s)
1 medic
4 gunner(s)

The ship costs MCr270.4 (not including discounts and fees) and takes 16 months to build.


Ship's Name: Gazelle
Ship's Class: Gazelle class
Build Cost: MCr270.4
Design Fee: MCr2.704
Mass Production Cost: MCr245.7936 (includes design fee)
Hull: 400T, custom (unstreamlined)
Jump Drive: H (jump-4)
Maneuver Drive: H (4-G)
Power Plant: H
Ship's Computer: 3 (capacity 5/9)
Ship's Accommodations: 8 stateroom(s),
Cargo Capacity: 36
Available Hardpoints: 4
Mounted Turrets: 4 triple turret(s),
Mounted Weapons: 12 beam weapon(s)

----------------------------------------

It would be barely possible to build a J5/M5/P5 version. You'd have to upgrade the drives to K, eliminate the Launch and (possibly) eliminate 1 stateroom, but it could be done.
 
tbeard1999 said:
It would be barely possible to build a J5/M5/P5 version. You'd have to upgrade the drives to K, eliminate the Launch and (possibly) eliminate 1 stateroom, but it could be done.
Click to expand...

But as you imply, there is little benefit to doing so. It is possible to build a B2, J-5, 400-dton Fleet Courier, but you end up poking along at M-2 or so because fuel, computer, and crew accommodations eat up so much dtonnage. And that's before you start goofing around with drop tanks.

The non-drop-tank Fiery is an improvement over the Gazelle for many reasons, and the version you sketched is pretty close to optimal (although I tend to splurge on a Ship's Boat in lieu of the canonical Launch).
 
As noted, no you can't rebuild the HG Gazelle. However, if you're willing to bend the Book 2 design rules and allow some small variances you can get a fair approximation.

Start with a 300ton hull.

Rule bend/break the drives rule and interpolate the 300ton hull performance.

Install drive letter J across the board for performance of 5 at 300tons and 4 at 400tons.

Ignore the particle accelerator barbettes and install missile turrets with attached magazines.

Oops, forgot, ignore the armor too.

Code: 
+300tons  Hull-custom
+100tons  Drop Tanks

 -50tons  Jumpdrive J
 -17tons  Maneuver J
 -28tons  Powerplant J

 -60tons  Fuel x Jump 2
 -50tons  Fuel x 4 Week

-100tons  Jump Fuel

 -20tons  Bridge
  -7tons    Computer m/6

  -4tons  Hardpoints x4
  -6tons  Magazines x2

 -32tons  Staterooms x8
  -6tons  Cargo

 -20tons  Gig
 
Last edited:
boomslang said:
You know, for the sake of completeness, it is probably worth pointing out that you cannot build the Gazelle under HG2, even -- as written, it carries one more hardpoint than is allowed by those rules...
Click to expand...

There's ways to look around that issue ;) (but yes, it should be noted it is broken under the rules).
 
DaveChase said:
Well, actually you can because the addition of the L-Hyd Tanks are considered a part of the ship which is means it is 'techincally' a 400t ship. CT LBB 5 pg 27 para 4 5th sentence.
Click to expand...

However, GDW did officially clarify the issue subsequently to limit weapons fit to the dtonnage without the drop tanks; TCS, pg. 14, para. 7.

:D
 
I'll try it with the "almost bk2" MGT...

Code: 
  Td   MCr.  Cd.    Item
[300]   12.   3     Hull 300 Td
  45    80    H5    JDrive: J5 for 300 Td J4 for 400 Td {1}
  15    32    H5    MDrive
  25    64    H5    PP
  20     2    4     Bridge for size 4 ship
  32     0    4     4 weeks PP Fuel
 120     0   1x4    Jfuel 160=400*.4, 150=300*.5 150*.4=120
   0    15   25     Model 5fib (25 rating)
   5     4   +2     Adv Military sensors
   2     2          2x Triple Turrets
   5     3          1x Barbette, Hvy Msl (MGHG)
  28     3.5  7     7x LSR (4xDO 3xSO)
   3          3     Cargo
====  ====== ===   ===========
 300   215.5 

Piots: 3
Navigators: 1
Engineers: 2
Gunners: 3
Medic: 1
Officers: 1

Remember: it only gets J4 on internal tanks, J5 only when dropping tanks.
Performance is 1J4+1J2 when retaining 100Td demountables
Performance is 1J5+1J3 when dropping the demountables at jump
Performance is 1J4 on internal tankage alone.

Converting to Bk2: Replace sensors with computer tonnage.
Pilots reduced to 1, Engineers increased to 3, delete officer, call a barbette a 5Td 6 weapon turret with double ammo... Or replace with another triple turret, and an extra stateroom.
 
Last edited:
Ran Targas said:
...for the life of me, I can't figure out how to squeeze J5 and M5 drives for a 400dT ship into a 300dT even with an extra 100dT of fuel.
Click to expand...

Ah, I missed this on first read of your plight. It's not J5 M5 for 400tons. That'll help a little I think.

It is J2 M5 for the 300ton hull without drop tanks used.

And J5 M5 for the 300ton hull if the tanks are dropped.

And J4 M4 for the 400ton hull if the tanks are retained.
 
The Gazelle was originally written up in JTAS, it was designed using first edition High Guard and some designer licence ;)

It proves to me the staff at GDW didn't read their own rules properly ;)
 
DaveChase said:
Well, actually you can because the addition of the L-Hyd Tanks are considered a part of the ship which is means it is 'techincally' a 400t ship. CT LBB 5 pg 27 para 4 5th sentence.

Of course that is CT for you :)

Dave Chase
Click to expand...

I guess a completist referee could rule that one of the hardpoints must be mounted on the drop tank. So when the tank is dropped, the hardpoint is lost.
 
Last edited:
I've always seen so much potential in the CE Gazelle's design for other applications aside from military-naval deployment and a few unexplored fleet duties.

IMTU, the vessel has served as a science ship and frontier 'scout' after a visit to a shipyard for refit-renovation, other variants have appeared as missile 'boats' or ordnance platforms still in fleet colors.

That said, I do like the unofficial Covenantor Class Scout Cruiser as I tend to 'kit bash' CT hulls to widen the catalog of designs and deck plans in my games.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Gallery/images/8640/1_Covenant.JPG
 
Last edited:
Patron Zero said:
I've always seen so much potential in the CE Gazelle's design for other applications...
Click to expand...

Yep, ditto here :)

I've got a trader around that used the drop tanks for extra cargo and/or staterooms. Safely converted of course... :smirk:

...no chance of them "dropping" :devil:

Might make a decent Corsair too...
 
To me, that long 'slender' hull seemed to say VLS missile tubes, much like a wet navy 'Polaris' submarine, might be so arranged in that area of the ship.

The Covenantor Class conversion was further expanded to carry standard cargo modules on outboard-exterior hull fittings as well as the addition of new 'flying' bridge superstructure on the upper aft section.

That rework transitioning the vessel into a 'tramp' freighter duties and providing low profile-no frills passage for adventurers seeking such.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top