CT Only: Character creation, LBB1 along with extended creation rules: unbalanced?

[dr fre0n]

In my playing group, we have some that are content with the LBB1 rules for creating the characters. Other enjoy going in more details and would rather use more advanced rules to create their characters.

1. Is the unbalance between the resulting basic and extended characters will, from anyone's played experience, be perceptible ?
2. Similarly, would mixing S04 Citizen classes/skills, with extended/basic be a problem?
3. We will be playing the Traveller Adventure. Would using any extended creation rule significantly unbalance the play overall (NPC and storywise)?

There is a few threads on the forum on referees tweaking efforts between different systems, either normalizing S04 to basic, or Cephus etc.. Ideally, I would rather spend the effort on storymaking than normalizing and use the available material as is

Of course I could rule out extended / Supp 4! But a lot of good and inspiring stuff in there too. Any thoughts from experimented players/refs who went through this in the past ?

dr fre0n

 

[mike wightman]

Characters generated using LBB:1 or S:4 CotI come out with similar numbers of skills overall.

If you have access to the LBB:4 to 7 then the skills in CotI are fine to use, if you don't have them then you would have to substitute LBB:1 skills for the 'new' skills in CotI.

One houserule/clarification that should be put into LBB:1/CotI is for professions that do not have a rank structure should get 2 skills per term rather than just 1.

The extended generation systems in LBB:4-7 produce characters with nearly double the number of skills compared with a 'basic' character.

Some of the possible solutions are:
limit the number of skills in extended generation to no more than two per term (roll yearly assignments for fluff but trim the number of skills)

grant more skill points per term to 'basic' characters - two per term, three if in a career with no rank structure.

alternatively allow enlisted promotion in basic generation

adopt the MegaTraveller rule of 4 and special duty roll addition to basic careers.
(rule of 4 - if you roll 3 or more higher than your target number for survival, commission, promotion, special duty you earn an extra skill that term)

 

[atpollard]

A typical character in LBB1 will ean about two skills per term (1 for surviving the term and 1 for promotion) with 1 free skill for the career and a bonus skill at certain events (like making Lieutenant). So the absolute best a character can do in LBB1 is 4 skills in the first year and 2 skills in a typical year.

S4 is compatible with LBB1 and gives similar results. It just adds some new skills not found in LBB1 (plus, obviously, new careers).

Advanced Chargen (LBB4-7) provide skills per year rather than per term with some of the special schools (and a really lucky die) allowing up to 8 skills in a single year. On average, advanced seems to generate about 4-8 skills per typical term vs 2 skills for LBB2 or S4.

A quick easy solution that I have used in the past is to roll on advanved Chargen and just keep 2 skills per term as a gain and all of the other skills rolled become skill-0. The idea is that Advanced Chargen tells you what skills you were exposed to that term, and the character picks which 2 skills he actually learned. This makes the character on a par with the Scout from LBB1 who gains Pilot and 2 skills per term.

 

[kilemall]

Definitely a difference between the two in that LBB4+ characters get more skills.

I have a recent thread where I went through to make skills as powerful and broad as Engineering, a subset of the same skillflation issue only some skills are very specific. I added in both S4/LBB4+ AND CE skills by redefining some of the LBB1 skill tables and adding an INT 8+ Advanced Education table.

So for instance Bribery becomes Persuasion.

It's a bit further down this forum.

 

[mike wightman]

The best you can do in LBB:1 is to join the army, survive, earn commission and promotion,

Two skills for first term (all careers get 2 skills for their first term), plus one for commission, plus one for promotion and the automatic skills of rifle 1 and smg 1

So that is six skills for one term.

You can do the same in the Marines but it is much less likely due to the much higher commission and promotion target numbers.

 

[atpollard]

The best you can do in LBB:1 is to join the army, survive, earn commission and promotion,

Two skills for first term (all careers get 2 skills for their first term), plus one for commission, plus one for promotion and the automatic skills of rifle 1 and smg 1

So that is six skills for one term.

You can do the same in the Marines but it is much less likely due to the much higher commission and promotion target numbers.

Good catch, I stand corrected on the high end for LBB1.
The typical term is a lot closer to 1 or 2 skills per term.

And the maximum term in LBB4-7 would be multiple special assignments with 4-8 skills in each.

 

[flykiller]

Ideally, I would rather spend the effort on storymaking than normalizing and use the available material as is

good man.

most likely you'll find the characters and the game easier to run if everyone starts with the same chargen system. at the very least it's less likely that no-one will feel another player is favored with a special set of skills.

 

[kilemall]

The best you can do in LBB:1 is to join the army, survive, earn commission and promotion,

Two skills for first term (all careers get 2 skills for their first term), plus one for commission, plus one for promotion and the automatic skills of rifle 1 and smg 1

So that is six skills for one term.

You can do the same in the Marines but it is much less likely due to the much higher commission and promotion target numbers.

I've often wondered whether there wasn't some interservice ribbing MWM was indulging in with LBB1 chargen.

 

[dr fre0n]

Definitely a difference between the two in that LBB4+ characters get more skills.

I have a recent thread where I went through to make skills as powerful and broad as Engineering,[...]

It's a bit further down this forum.

Yes I have read your thread - quite interesting - this is basically one of the threads that made me think about possible out the box solutions, thus this post.

 

[dr fre0n]

[...]if everyone starts with the same chargen system [...]

Yes this is basically the root of it; either everyone use the same, either I do some adjustments like those proposed by Mike Wightman and atpollard;

If we go with the mix-approach, I consider the idea to limit points to two per terms viable (for extended). The (almost) uniqueness of the characters generated, especially if using extended chargen, is a part of the game that makes it very appealing in my opinion; and as a referee it is helpful when creating situations or encounters to have a rich background whenever possible.

 

[dr fre0n]

what about possible unbalance for the campain

This all being said, nice compromises were proposed in this thread thanks to everyone!

So, would using the extended chargen as is unbalance the game or the nature of the encounters in an campain such as 'The Traveller Adventure' ? I have read through several chapters already - and my opinion is that it won't change much of it in regards with situations and NPC.. Oh well we will see I guess.

Otherwise - is there any released adventure that specifically recommend the use of the extended chargen ? Would like to see how this 'requirement' is implemented.

 

[Timerover51]

This all being said, nice compromises were proposed in this thread thanks to everyone!

So, would using the extended chargen as is unbalance the game or the nature of the encounters in an campain such as 'The Traveller Adventure' ? I have read through several chapters already - and my opinion is that it won't change much of it in regards with situations and NPC.. Oh well we will see I guess.

Otherwise - is there any released adventure that specifically recommend the use of the extended chargen ? Would like to see how this 'requirement' is implemented.

Safari Ship recommends using Supplement 4: Citizens of the Imperium as it requires at least one Hunter character. Nomads of the World Ocean would benefit from the use of either Supplement 4 for the Sailor character or the use of The Traveller Book which has the possibility of a character with the Watercraft Skill. However, neither book uses extended chargen.

 

[atpollard]

This all being said, nice compromises were proposed in this thread thanks to everyone!

So, would using the extended chargen as is unbalance the game or the nature of the encounters in an campain such as 'The Traveller Adventure' ? I have read through several chapters already - and my opinion is that it won't change much of it in regards with situations and NPC.. Oh well we will see I guess.

Otherwise - is there any released adventure that specifically recommend the use of the extended chargen ? Would like to see how this 'requirement' is implemented.

It is more of a relative thing.
You will want all of the characters to be either advanced chargen or all non-advanced chargen. Neither will break an adventure as much as if you mix them, then one player will be able to do everything well and another player will likely end up feeling like a red shirt.

 

[nobby-w]

In my playing group, we have some that are content with the LBB1 rules for creating the characters. Other enjoy going in more details and would rather use more advanced rules to create their characters.

1. Is the unbalance between the resulting basic and extended characters will, from anyone's played experience, be perceptible ?
2. Similarly, would mixing S04 Citizen classes/skills, with extended/basic be a problem?
3. We will be playing the Traveller Adventure. Would using any extended creation rule significantly unbalance the play overall (NPC and storywise)?

[ . . . ]
dr fre0n

On the first point, using the extended character generation systems in Book4-7 will produce characters with many more skills than a stock LBB1 character. This will cause balance issues on a party with characters made with both systems.

On the second point, that can and does work well. Loads of folks, myself included, have done modified versions of the LBB1 services to bring newer skills into the mix.

On the third point, it probably would not make a lot of difference. You might have to twink NPCs slightly in combat but that's about it.

If you want basic characters that are more in line with the number of skills you find in LBB4-7 character generation systems you can fairly easily adapt the Megatraveller character generation system. This is a variant of the LBB1/S04 system that gives characters some extra skills and has versions of all the Book 1 and Supplement 4 classes with a wider variety of available skills. You could get the CD from FFE or buy a MT set off Ebay fairly cheaply.

There are also a few other classes - police, scientists, journalists, spook services, skyport authority - in the JTAS issues. You can get these on CD-ROM from FFE or there are print anthologies in circulation.

 

[exedore6]

You'll definitely want to use the same skill list (or at least allow a player to substitute advanced skills on the table)

In my experience, I don't find advanced character generation inherently more powerful (maybe I'm just unlucky, when my Army guy spends two terms doing garrison duty and internal security)

When I've done the math, the mean number of skills per term are often much lower.

Regarding CotI, if you're using the basic+coti skill list, I'd recommend sticking with 1 skill/term (did you know that the Scout didn't get 2/term in 77?) - there's a trade-off for survivability and skill utility.

 

[sfchbryan]

Or you can use the MT basic character generation - the addition of the Special Duty roll will statically get you on par with the Advanced character generation (1.35 per year vs 1.4 in Advanced)

 

[Black Vulmea]

If you use the rule, which many Traveller players don't seem to know about or choose to ignore, that a character's maximum number of skills and skill levels is equal to the sum of the character's Int + Edu, then it really doesn't matter which system you use. A Book 4-7 character will hit that cap sooner than a Book 1 or Supplement 4 character, usually by a term or two in my experience.

 

[nobby-w]

In my playing group, we have some that are content with the LBB1 rules for creating the characters. Other enjoy going in more details and would rather use more advanced rules to create their characters.

1. Is the unbalance between the resulting basic and extended characters will, from anyone's played experience, be perceptible ?
2. Similarly, would mixing S04 Citizen classes/skills, with extended/basic be a problem?
3. We will be playing the Traveller Adventure. Would using any extended creation rule significantly unbalance the play overall (NPC and storywise)?

[ . . . ]

Extended character generation will tend to produce characters with quite a lot more skills than the system in LBB1. I would suggest that you either twink the LBB1 character generation (see below) or restrict LBB4-7 characters to 3 or 4 terms.

There are skills such as Survival or Liaison available in COTI character classes that are not available in Book 1. The same applies to LBB4-7.

One workaround for this disparity (which I have used) is to use the Megatraveller character generation system. It's not wildly different from Book 1, but adds extra skills roll. In addition, the same set of skills is available across the board. This brings the balance of characters generated with basic or extended systems (MT also has extended systems) more into line.

In addition, if you have access to the JTAS (electronic versions are available from RPGNow or FFE) there are several other character services you can use.

• Skyport Authority (JTAS 19)
• Imperial Academy of Science and Medicine (JTAS 22)
• Journalists (JTAS 27, Challenge)
• Scientists (JTAS 29, Challenge)
• Police (JTAS 30, Challenge)
• Spook services (JTAS 33, Challenge)

 

[kilemall]

In case the OP returns to read, here is my QND chargen-


All characters start with 777777. Players can adjust the stats but must take from one stat to increase another on a 1 for 1 basis.


Determine career and terms.


Each term gets 3 points.


Each point will allow for selection of personal development stats or skills the character qualifies for on that career's tables (including the EDU 8+ table), or buying rank at the rate of one rank per term.


So a term-5 character can have 15 points, which could be say rank-0 5 stats and 10 skill levels, or rank-5 2 PD stats and 8 skills, etc.




Service or rank-based skills such as Scout or Merchant First Officer Pilot-1 are applied in addition to the 3 per term skill/PD/rank.



Roll benefits and aging. Done.

 

[Supplement Four]

Note that mixing Advanced Character with Basic Characters works better if you enforce the Hard Survival Rule, and by that, I mean that when a player bricks a Survival throw, the character is dead--a new one must be rolled up.

Advanced Character Generation should subject the character to Survival Throws more often than with Basic Character Generation.

Survival is a great balancer between the two methods for generating characters.

If you allow characters to fail survival and then start play at that point, Advanced characters will almost always have more skills than Basic characters.