Client States During Rebellion

[Nathan Brazil]

There were many worlds that are Client States beholden to the Third Imperium. My understanding is that these worlds have various agreements with the Imperium of trade and protection, but yet are not members (yet).

:coffeesip:
So what happens to all these Imperial Client States due to Rebellion?

• Are the Client State agreements generally null and void?

Were the agreements were to the seat at Capital? Lucan is too busy trying to subdue his rebellious territories. Would he care?
​

• If the agreement is not broken, who is legally bound to the Client States agreement?

The Third Imperium? While the head of state is in question, the political entity remains. The agreement is still there even if enforcement is difficult?
The Local (or former) Archdukes? As written Lucan, Norris perhaps Margaret maintain the pretense of the Third Imperium being in existence in name if nothing else. Daibei, Ilelish, Vland formed new governments. Antares went further and joined the Julian Protectorate.​

• Do the Factions do a Land Grab?

Everyone needs all the resources they can get. Multi-System polities would fight take overs and drains resources. Not worth a Faction's time. But those poor helpless singular worlds that have agreements....​

 

[aramis]

First misconception: Client state is an official status.
Truth: sometimes. Other times, it's simply the locals are unwilling to risk the existing status quo that they don't make waves...

Second: when an official status, it represents a formal organized systematic agreement.
Truth: In most cases, yes, but not always. Liberia was (and technically still is) a formal client state of the US. The only thing the US does for them officially is train their navy, and give them nearly tariff-free trade with the US States. (but not with US territories.) Oh, and the US created it by forcibly taking over a chunk of africa and dumping former slaves there. And we imposed their constitution.

Third: The larger state is always managing the situation
Reality: not always. It's amazing how many countries have decided to stop issuing their own currency because the US$ or the UK£ or the Euro are far more stable, and their trade is just enough to keep the government solvent using a foreign currency as their official one. IIRC, one such state even uses the Aussie dollar... these states are deeply concerned about certain political issues, and generally act in what they think is best for both themselves and the country/alliance whose currency they use... but their perceptions are not always even rising to the attention of the issuing group...

Fourth misconception: That such relationships are stable.
Truth: Anything but. They're usually long term, but almost always unstable. Unless you count the US-Canada relationship. Or the UK-Canada, UK-Australia, UK-New Zealand, etc...) At any point, the client could do something self-interested.

The relationship is usually economic benefit subverting the political self-interest for a longer term self-interest in not being annexed and/or destroyed. They may not even like the "Senior Nation"... but they don't want to become its conquest, so they play the puppet in hopes of getting thrown some scraps.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

First misconception: Client state is an official status.
Truth: sometimes. Other times, it's simply the locals are unwilling to risk the existing status quo that they don't make waves...

On that basis, what is the point then of using Allegiance Codes of Cs or CsIm in UWP listings, even during pre-Rebellion? Should ALL such allegiance codes then be NaXX or whatever is applies for the primary sophont there?

It seems semi-official or there would not be a distinction in the first place between Cs and Na.

 

[aramis]

On that basis, what is the point then of using Allegiance Codes of Cs or CsIm in UWP listings, even during pre-Rebellion? Should ALL such allegiance codes then be NaXX or whatever is applies for the primary sophont there?

It seems semi-official or there would not be a distinction in the first place between Cs and Na.

It's a marker for a state where you can expect to not be treated poorly, and who doesn't want to piss off the Imperium for any number of reasons, but most likely trade.

It's kind of like Cuba is the 1920s. It wasn't part of the US, its locals didn't speak English, officially it wasn't using the US$... but everywhere you go in the cities are Americans spending US dollars.

Looking at the LBBs, S8 LD A-M...

Client State. An independent political unit which has elected (or had forced upon it) the patronage of a larger political unit. This relationship is generally mutually beneficial, and is essentially commercial in nature. That is, the political or defensive ties which may be part of any patron-client relationship are ultimately intended to promote trade between the two.​

From a game standpoint: If you're imperial flagged in an Imperial Client State, you can expect not to be shot by locals over minor stuff. You can expect to be able to spend CrImp instead of CrPolity or CrLocal. You can expect low to no tariffs on trade.

Things that may or may not be true, but are all built on that ideal, and all based upon real situations in various nations accused of being either US or UK client states:
You might not need a visa to go outside the port.
The port might remain an extrality zone.
The IN and IISS are likely to have a presence.
Local units may or may not have imperial advisors. (US & Liberia)
Local astrographic units are probably going to remain in 3I standards
You're unlikely to get arrested for being "in the wrong neighborhood" (US & most of the Polynesian and caribbean nations)
You're likely to get quietly handed off to imperial justice if you do anything short of major felonies... but the Impies WILL punish you.
There may be a noble assigned as consul or even proper ambassador in permanent residence. He might even be titled as the Baron of ___...

In a game mechanical sense, it means you don't need to impose penalties upon merchants making call there, and that IS an important thing on the charts. They can trade using standard rules, and standard prices, and expect a reasonably safe time of it.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

In a game mechanical sense, it means you don't need to impose penalties upon merchants making call there, and that IS an important thing on the charts. They can trade using standard rules, and standard prices, and expect a reasonably safe time of it.

You are correct. Got some of the misconceptions out of the way.

But still, an example:
Vavkuk (Antares 2922) found here https://travellermap.com/?x=51.259&y=58.204&scale=64&options=41975
In 1105, it is a Imperial Client State. No problem there.
In 1120, who is it a Client State of? By 1120, the Domain of Antares has pulled out of Third Imperium, taking much of Antares and Emtpy Quarter with it, forming the League of Antares, an independent member state of the Julian Protectorate. We all know how much the Protectorate loves Imperials. So it might no longer be safe to proclaim oneself an Imperial Client State, or be proclaimed one by others when such a place is so far away

So are such designations of Cs or CsIm Allegiance Code still applicable everywhere during Rebellion?
Just near Lucan, Norris and Margaret and Strephon? Not by Antares, Daibei, Ilelish and Vland?

 

[aramis]

You are correct. Got some of the misconceptions out of the way.

But still, an example:
Vavkuk (Antares 2922) found here https://travellermap.com/?x=51.259&y=58.204&scale=64&options=41975
In 1105, it is a Imperial Client State. No problem there.
In 1120, who is it a Client State of? By 1120, the Domain of Antares has pulled out of Third Imperium, taking much of Antares and Emtpy Quarter with it, forming the League of Antares, an independent member state of the Julian Protectorate. We all know how much the Protectorate loves Imperials. So it might no longer be safe to proclaim oneself an Imperial Client State, or be proclaimed one by others when such a place is so far away

So are such designations of Cs or CsIm Allegiance Code still applicable everywhere during Rebellion?
Just near Lucan, Norris and Margaret and Strephon? Not by Antares, Daibei, Ilelish and Vland?

More than likely, those near a faction probably stay with that faction, not with some vague notional 3I... Client states want/need trade. If yu aren't trading with the remnant next to you, you aren't trading.

And if they were worth taking, they probably already were taken before the rebellion... especially near Lucan's Imperium, which has almost no 3I border to have Cs worlds at.


Keep in mind also: most of the maps are not for 1120. They don't reflect the changes.

 

[Enoki]

There can be other reasons beyond trade too, depending on exactly where the client state is located. Another reason could be military. That is, the client state was imposed by the Imperium or accepted by the client because of political and military issues in the immediate region. The client state gives the Imperium a stake in local politics without getting directly involved.
There may be bigger trade and economic issues behind that too.

Three examples:

Pathway 1034 Ariel subsector Crucis Margin. This client has a scout base on it and sits between the Galian Federation and the breakaway Viyard Concourse who are all but at war. This would make Pathway an ideal location to monitor the situation between the two from neutral space for the Imperium.
So, the Imperium makes Pathway a client state and brings in a scout base. Good for the local economy, gives Pathway a degree of safety, and lets the Imperium monitor two large polities that might start another war.

Kupakii 1001, and Imukushush 1301, Tlianke subsector, Hinterworlds. Both have scout bases on them. The obvious reason is to maintain a trade route from the Imperium to the Anubian Trade Coalition and protect that against piracy from the Ral Ranta and the numerous nearby nearly lawless systems that exist.
Using quasi-military scouts for this rather than Imperial Navy forces makes sense as it prevents escalating things between political entities nearby. The Ral Ranta and Imperium avoid a war by not having Imperial Navy ships involved. The scouts are sufficient Imperial presence to deal with piracy.
The Anubians don't feel threatened by the Imperium moving naval forces into systems next door to them and appreciate the safety having scout bases brings to their trade route to the Imperium.

In these cases, trade isn't the primary reason for these client states to exist except in a broader sense than the local economy. They are clients because they are in the right place to fulfill a political and military need for security and bases.

Those uses of client states make broad sense in the context of their location.

 

[Condottiere]

Client statehood is just a stage further from hegemony, since it's an indirect control, with the implication that the ruling elite can and will be replaced.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Client statehood is just a stage further from hegemony, since it's an indirect control, with the implication that the ruling elite can and will be replaced.

That was along the lines I was sort of thinking. In T4/Milieu 0, client state has a different connotation. Client state falls more in line with Condottiere's statement. I had forgotten why it nagged at me and then forgot because of the LBB Library Data entry.
There the Cleon Plan makes nice nice, but do not doubt you will be converted to New Imperial Order when the Imperium reaches that far.
Someday.
Years from now.
Maybe decades.
Maybe even centuries....