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Converting HG ships to Book Two

infojunky

SOC-14 1K
Peer of the Realm
I am pondering what needs to change or be added to convert a High Guard Ship to Book 2.

Drive damage with no letter system just reduce a drive by performance per hit?

Note there is a rough conversion in CT's K'Kree book of 5 hits per reduction, but those ships are mostly 1000 dTons+ in size.
 
One approach might be doing it the TNE way by dividing the HG drives by percentage tonnage.

So maybe 1000 tons of power plant that say is Power-5, each hit is 20 tons so it takes 1 hit to reduce to Power-4 and 19 more hits before Power-3, etc.
 
I am pondering what needs to change or be added to convert a High Guard Ship to Book 2.

It's not easy, as the design system is quite different.

To begin with:
  • while in LBB2 Jump Drive used to be quite more massive than Maneuver Drive, in HG is just the opposite, leading to not matching.
  • fuel needs for PP in Lbb2 are independent of ship size (and from PP size), but depend on Power number. When moveing to HG, again they don't use to match (and some times by quite a lot)
  • Most HG designs are larger than what LBB2 allows
  • In HG there are many weapons wihtout equivalent in LBB2

Note there is a rough conversion in CT's K'Kree book of 5 hits per reduction, but those ships are mostly 1000 dTons+ in size.

So are most HG designs...
 
One approach might be doing it the TNE way by dividing the HG drives by percentage tonnage.

So maybe 1000 tons of power plant that say is Power-5, each hit is 20 tons so it takes 1 hit to reduce to Power-4 and 19 more hits before Power-3, etc.

Actually I was kinda thinking along those lines.

1st thought was to follow the implied pattern from book two. In that every 200 dTons of ship adds a hit pre drive number.
Tonnage Hits/per
200 1/1
400 2/1
600 3/1
800 4/1
1000 5/1

At this point I should point out that my focus is on the Adventure class of ships. While Book to is fine a lot of people love the High Guard construction system.

But any hows the other idea is to use a fixed size per hit. 10 tons per hit follows book 2 for Hold and fuel.
 
Early drafts of T20 used the following scheme:

Hull: 1 per 100 Td
Cargo: 1 per 20 Td
Fuel: 1 per 20 Td
JDrive: 1 per 5 Td
MDrive: 1 per 2 Td
PP: 1 per 4 Td
Turrets: 1 per each turret or barbette
Bays: 1 per 10 Td

Armor wasn't sloughed off, so it was T20 standard Damage Reduction AV;
Weapon damages 1d per USP factor, sides by type of weapon.
Works great small ship, but too many hits for anything over about 5KTd to play out.
 
Early drafts of T20 used the following scheme:

Hull: 1 per 100 Td
Cargo: 1 per 20 Td
Fuel: 1 per 20 Td
JDrive: 1 per 5 Td
MDrive: 1 per 2 Td
PP: 1 per 4 Td
Turrets: 1 per each turret or barbette
Bays: 1 per 10 Td

Armor wasn't sloughed off, so it was T20 standard Damage Reduction AV;
Weapon damages 1d per USP factor, sides by type of weapon.
Works great small ship, but too many hits for anything over about 5KTd to play out.

Cool, but now I am going to have to go read that rule book.... When we were playing it I really didn't read much more than Character gen...
 
I answered to quick....

Early drafts of T20 used the following scheme:

Hull: 1 per 100 Td

I was thinking on Hull to keep it in line with the 1 per 200 tons that I mentioned earlier, but with the number results that are Hull maybe 1 per 100 isn't a bad idea.

Cargo: 1 per 20 Td
Fuel: 1 per 20 Td
JDrive: 1 per 5 Td
MDrive: 1 per 2 Td
PP: 1 per 4 Td
Turrets: 1 per each turret or barbette

I still thinking book two.... But,.... Not a good argument either way.

Bays: 1 per 10 Td

Now that I hadn't thought about.
 
Concerning Drives:
You could extend the drive/plant tables beyond the standard A thru Z letters. Mongoose did this with drive letters AA BB CC DD to extend the performance table ratings up to Jump/Manuever 6 for ships up to 2000 tons. This was in MgT1e High Guard pg43.

This system is for consideration. It is to keep the damage letter system in place and the damage from Book 2 weapons. It does not address the performance table or the Bk5 performance. I will have to think about that.

Instead because you are talking about HG ships, I suggest drives above Z are listed as 2W 3E, 4F or some system where if you have take 24 hits or go below nA, you drop a number. So a 2A drive takes a hit. It is now a 1Z or just a Z drive...


The progression for drives in CT '81 can be expressed as the following formulas...
Jump
Mass: Per Letter: 5 tons + 5 tons/per letter
Letters (or hit if you prefer) = (tonnage - 5)/5
Cost: MCr 10.0 per letter
Example: A Jump drive is 250 tons so takes 49 hits making it a 3A drive

Maneuver
Mass: 2 tons/per letter - 1 (yes that is a minus 1 there)
Letters (or hit if you prefer) = (tonnage +1)/2
Cost: MCr 4.0 per letter
Example: A Maneuver drive is 250 tons so takes 125 hits making it a 5E drive

Power
Mass: Per Letter: 1 tons + 3 tons/per letter
Letters (or hit if you prefer) = (tonnage - 1)/3
Cost: MCr 8.0 per letter
Example: A Power Plant is 250 tons so takes 83 hits making it a 4H drive
 
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Instead because you are talking about HG ships, I suggest drives above Z are listed as 2W 3E, 4F or some system where if you have take 24 hits or go below nA, you drop a number. So a 2A drive takes a hit. It is now a 1Z or just a Z drive...

Thanks.

Honestly I am working circularly here, with the goal being a flavor of Book 2 combat. Also in a lot of ways a design system agnostic approach would be nice.
 
Thanks.

Honestly I am working circularly here, with the goal being a flavor of Book 2 combat. Also in a lot of ways a design system agnostic approach would be nice.

What are the most important elements of Bk2 combat for you?

For me, those would be:
  • damage steps by drive size
  • Computer rules
  • Skill effects
  • vector movement

Damage steps by drive size is a bit of an issue I have with mayday - it lacks them.
 
What are the most important elements of Bk2 combat for you?

For me, those would be:
  • damage steps by drive size
  • Computer rules
  • Skill effects
  • vector movement

Damage steps by drive size is a bit of an issue I have with mayday - it lacks them.

Right now as it sits it is the Vector Movement and the simple Computer rules from Mayday. Book 2's damage system.

And a cobbled together set of tasks based on skills. A lot of skill choices were buried in software choices in Mayday/Book2, I am breaking them out as either skill rolls or skill based DMs.

Other ideas are which range mechanism to use, Mayday's -1 per hex, Book2's mods, or High Guard's as detailed in Mayday. Though looking at Book2 I can see another of -1 per 100,000 km (10 hexes).

Note I am assuming the Ranges from the '81 edition of Book2 which works out to 10,000km per hex.
 
In another thread about HG weapons in Book 2 combat I created this. This adds energy and accelerators turrets and preserves the existing flavor of Book 2 combat....

Now the new rules:

SHIP DESIGN
Weaponry
Power Requirements for Energy Weapons and Accelerators: Inclusion of even a single energy weapon requires a power plant rated at least one letter higher than its maneuver drive. Inclusion of even a single accelerator requires a power plant rated at least two letters higher than its maneuver drive. Having both requires only two letters higher. The greater cost of larger power plants combined with the costs of these weapons means they typically are found only on military ships.

Turrets:
Energy Weapons (Plasma Guns and Fusion Guns), require an enlarged single or dual turret occupying 2 tons for fire control and space for the larger energy weapon(s). A dual energy turret may contain 2 energy weapons or a single energy weapon and a laser, missile, or sand caster.
Particle Accelerators may only be mounted on enlarged single turrets occupying 3 (standard) or 5 (barbette) tons for fire control and space for the weapon.

Turret Weapons:
Plasma Guns: Available at TL 10. Cost: 1,500,000 Credits per weapon
Fusion Guns: Avalable at TL 12. Cost: 2,000,000 Credits per weapon
Particle Accelerator Barbette: Available at TL 14. Cost: 4,000,000 Credits per weapon
Particle Accelerator: Available at TL 15. Cost: 3,000,000 Credits per weapon

COMBAT
Energy Weapons have a +1 DM to hit. They may not fire at targets further than 2500 mm however. They incur the –DM for sand if encountered. Plasma Guns cause 2 hits if successful. Fusion Guns cause 3 hits if successful.

Particle Accelerators ignore sand. Barbettes cause 3 hits if successful. Turrets cause 4 hits if successful.

COMPUTERS
Change Double program rules
From
Double fire allows a ship to draw excess power (if available) from the power plant and thus increase the output of laser weaponry. When this program is functioning, a vessel with a power plant rated at least one letter higher than its maneuver drive (and which has not yet taken damage to reduce the current letter rating to equal to or below the M-drive letter) can fire a double beam or double pulse with laser weaponry.
To
Double fire allows a ship to draw excess power (if available) from the power plant and thus increase the output of laser, energy and accelerator weaponry. When this program is functioning, a vessel with a power plant rated at least one letter higher than its maneuver drive, two letters or three letters in the case of equipped energy or accelerators respectively (and which has not yet taken damage to reduce the current letter rating to equal to or below the that normal minimum letter) can fire double laser, energy or accelerator weaponry.
 
Redesign from scratch; MGT HG 2E is not derived from CTHG, but from CT Bk2...

This is actually good to hear.
I have never really like CT:HG, way to thin on explanation and clunky for what was in the rules. I would start then stop out of confusion.
I know many like the first High Guard, they should be proud to for using it effectively.
I am not enough of a engineer to struggle thru it.
 
Nathan, what about bays, repulsors or meson guns? All technically eligible to 1000+ ton ships.

Plus of course armor.
 
Nathan, what about bays, repulsors or meson guns? All technically eligible to 1000+ ton ships.

Plus of course armor.
You ask for a lot. :rofl:
:coffeegulp: However I have given it some thought. There are some possible constraints to consider before going further.
1.Constraint 1 - There is slavish mathematical conversion and "looks like, feels like" in conversion. I generally go for a balance but still lean to "looks like, feels like" on the destination rule system. Case in point my energy turrets. I tried to write it in Book 2 jargon and style, but still acknowledge the special characteristics of the weapons.
2.Constraint 2 - big ship universe or little ship universe. If you go for big ship universe, my math for computing engine hits start getting high numbers, but that is the math. Use my math on a Tigress. You might just have to dump the drive letter system to keep the number of hits. If you limit to 5000 dTon hulls, my preliminary look pretty much rules out spinals over 2500 dTons.

Bays I have not fully fleshed out yet, but I see based on Book 5 EP and the conversions of HG to Striker that 50 ton Plasma and Fusion Bays look like 10 weapons a Bay. If that is the case, it is likely that 50 ton Accelerator Bays are also 10 weapons a pop and extend that to 100 ton bays are 20 weapons a pop. Because this is not such a excessive number of weapons, perhaps my existing energy rules need not change. Perhaps provide some DM to hit due to 10/20 weapons working in coordination or a number of hits based on how good the die roll is. Example if all 20 accelerators hit that would be 80 damage hits based on my existing accelerator turrets. Do I want that?
I loath to give them additional firepower or damage due to Tech Level because Book 2 does not do that for missiles or laser turrets I did not do that for energy turrets, so bays should not get that either. Striking a balance again.
 
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Far as that is concerned, I suppose we could use the Striker ortillery definitions as equivalent for LBB2 weaponry at that.
 
Honestly this is a totally meta topic. In that while the stated goal is to express one thing in terms of the other, there is the underlying conversation of what additional mechanics are needed to give more satisfaction. Playing through the permutations works both goals.

I Started this topic with a bunch of questions. Now I find I have a bunch of new questions.

Armor? Guys how would you handle it? This also talks to how damage is allocated.

Heavy Missile launchers? i.e. the individual launchers from bays.

Then along that line, smaller bays?

And related, How do you handle number of Hardpoints taken up by a bay? Some people use 5 points per 50 tons bay and 10 per 100...

Alongside that Damage incremental along a volume metric instead of the performance metric?

Another thing all the tinkering with book two has pointed out to me is that the upper limit of book two is somewhere between 1000 and 2000 tons, even though the chart goes beyond that. Though to be honest that is where the hand off between the books is as well.
 
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