CT Economics Tables Reference

[aramis]

Nominated to Reference by Carlobrand
Looking at the costs per ton, again, Basic Boxes, all designed with CT Bk5. All carry one single turret, no weapon installed. All using standard financing.

Findings (WIDE table:

Jn/Pn	J1 TL9	J1 TL13	J1 TL15	J2 TL11	J2 TL13	J2 TL15	J3 TL12	J3 TL13	J3 TL15	J4 TL13	J4 TL15	J5 TL14	J5 TL15	J6 TL15	Jn/Pn
200	988	880	775	2,068	1,753	1,460	4,138	3,329	2,636	6,901	5,038	26,629	11,976	210,376	200
400	892	793	697	1,814	1,533	1,237	3,407	2,740	2,158	5,157	3,790	13,010	7,610	25,921	400
600	850	755	650	1,656	1,396	1,153	3,083	2,479	1,912	4,485	3,234	9,977	6,220	16,535	600
800	845	752	661	1,603	1,350	1,099	2,937	2,329	1,827	4,195	3,043	8,863	5,531	13,798	800
1000	814	723	634	1,543	1,285	1,057	2,763	2,221	1,721	3,875	2,863	7,639	5,082	11,372	1000
1200	854	760	669	1,612	1,358	1,111	2,852	2,287	1,787	4,029	2,959	8,296	5,340	12,619	1200
1400	844	751	660	1,594	1,342	1,098	2,843	2,261	1,765	4,007	2,913	8,090	5,227	12,466	1400
1600	837	740	650	1,573	1,324	1,089	2,800	2,229	1,739	3,927	2,859	7,842	5,147	11,865	1600
1800	831	739	645	1,564	1,315	1,082	2,782	2,229	1,728	3,892	2,835	7,830	5,083	11,625	1800
2000	823	731	638	1,558	1,303	1,071	2,754	2,206	1,711	3,841	2,818	7,665	4,992	11,267	2000
Max	988	880	775	2,068	1,753	1,460	4,138	3,329	2,636	6,901	5,038	26,629	11,976	210,376	Max
Mean	857.8	762.4	667.9	1,658.5	1,395.9	1,145.7	3,035.9	2,431	1,898.4	4,430.9	3,235.2	10,584.1	6,220.8	33,784.4	Mean
Median	844.5	751.5	655	1,598.5	1,346	1,098.5	2,847.5	2,274	1,776	4,018	2,936	8,193	5,283.5	12,542.5	Median
Min	814	723	634	1,543	1,285	1,057	2,754	2,206	1,711	3,841	2,818	7,639	4,992	11,267	Min
Std Dev	50.4	45.5	41.7	163.6	143.5	121.8	435.8	356	292.1	956.3	698.3	5,872.8	2,174.2	62,206.4	Std Dev
Basal	895	797	697	1,762	1,490	1,220	3,283	2,630	2,068	4,974	3,634	14,066	7,458	74,749	Basal

The Cr1000/ton for this is pretty close to the costs for low-end.

These are the same tonnage breakpoints I used for looking at MGT; note the multiple columns for all but J6, by TL. TL13 and 15 are PP breakpoints.

Edit Note: 8 Nove 2021: changed table from monospaced text to hypertext table.

 

[aramis]

The Cargo Tonnage Equivalent costs for passages are also somewhat less, due to stewards handling more passengers, and only HP; Medical share is tiny, but present, too.

Here's the worksheet:

Item	MPSO	MPDO	HPSO	HPDO	Unit
SR CTE	4.000	2.000	4.000	2.000	CTE
Baggage	0.000	0.000	1.000	1.000	CTd
Stwd SR	0.000	0.000	0.500	0.500	CTE
Medic SR	0.033	0.033	0.033	0.033	CTE
LS, Pass	2.000	2.000	2.000	2.000	KCr
LS, Stwd	0.000	0.000	0.250	0.250	KCr
LS, Medic	0.017	0.017	0.017	0.017	KCr
MP, SR	1.042	0.521	1.042	0.521	KCr
Maint, SR	0.021	0.011	0.021	0.011	KCr
Totals
CTE	4.033	2.033	5.533	3.533	CTE
KCr Flat	3.080	2.549	3.330	2.799	KCr

Jump	1	1	1	2	2	2	3	3	3	4	4	5	5	6
TL	9	9	9	11	13	15	12	13	15	13	15	14	15	15
Basal	895	797	697	1,762	1,490	1,220	3,283	2,630	2,068	4,974	3,634	14,066	7,458	46,327
MP SO	6,690	6,295	5,892	10,187	9,090	8,001	16,321	13,687	11,421	23,141	17,736	59,809	33,159	189,917
MP DO	4,369	4,170	3,967	6,132	5,579	5,030	9,224	7,896	6,754	12,662	9,937	31,146	17,712	96,732
HP SO	8,283	7,740	7,187	13,080	11,575	10,081	21,495	17,882	14,773	30,852	23,437	81,158	44,596	259,658
HP DO	5,962	5,615	5,262	9,025	8,064	7,110	14,398	12,091	10,106	20,373	15,638	52,495	29,149	166,473

I've changed basal.
It's lowest of:
__ Min+2*StDev
__ Mean+StDev
__ Median+StDev
__ Mean+Median

A taller sample (bigger ships) should reduce the StDev of J6.

Edit Note: 8 Nov 2021: reformatted table from monospace text to hypertext tagged.

 

[aramis]

I'm curious about this Aramis, but I've always found that costing these things out like you've done exceeds my boredom threshold. Have you (or anyone else) worked any similar tables to see if converting the book prices to 'per parsec' fixes the problem, or opens up a new can of worms?

that's easy; it's both valid (for J1-2), iffy for 3, and not valid for J4+. Here's a table where I've bolded the good ones.

Jump	1	1	1	2	2	2	3	3	3	4	4	5	5	6
TL	9	9	9	11	13	15	12	13	15	13	15	14	15	15
Basal	895	797	697	1,762	1,490	1,220	3,283	2,630	2,068	4,974	3,634	14,066	7,458	46,327
MP SO	6,690	6,295	5,892	10,187	9,090	8,001	16,321	13,687	11,421	23,141	17,736	59,809	33,159	189,917
HP SO	8,283	7,740	7,187	13,080	11,575	10,081	21,495	17,882	14,773	30,852	23,437	81,158	44,596	259,658

The green entries are below book x parsecs. The problem is that the J2 and J3 numbers are so far different that the price WILL have to drop closer to cost. Cargo: To wit J1 cargo is between 105 and 303 credits of profit AT BOOK RATE. Using it per parsec, however, the margin for J2 is 248 to 780 Cr below 2x book rate. J3 is from 283 over (TL12) to 832 under (TL15) bk x 3 J4 is 974 over to 366 under Bk x4 J5 is 9066 to 2458 over. J6 is 16K over.

Note that the costs DO NOT INCREASE LINEARLY; under NO traveller edition is the cost of J2 going to be 2x that of J1. Nor is the cost per ton linear for a given jump over a range of sizes; every system has fixed overhead systems, which reduces in percentage as the ship climbs in size. Some systems are more profound than others; Bk2 has lower costs for the ship, and thus the payment contributes less, as does maintenance, to the costs per ton of cargo.

I wonder if T5's design team have done this sort of stuff?

I doubt it highly; not many of us are wonky enough to enjoy DOING it, tho many more are interested in the results. The spreadsheet was about 6 hours of work; the sheet can be extended upwards, as it's extremely formulaic. (Heck, you could easily use it for other simple HG designs in parallel; it doesn't have weapons, not turret cost calcs, nor a bunch of other stuff that block merchants don't need.) (Formatting the tables for posting was about 30 min more.) The numbers in Mega, TNE, and T4 are bloody hard to work out, BTW, and are recursive to figure, which spreadsheets dislike....

Also, my choices on what constitutes basal pricing for the market are high-end of average costs; some ships can't make money at those, most will, and low cost ships will make lots. Me, I find it interesting to do this stuff, IF the system is simple enough to spreadsheet like I've done for MGT basic and for CT HG. Oh, and I forgot to mention, but it's noted in the sheet: all the ships are flattened spheres for minimum cost streamlined hulls.

Also, as a side note: the breakpoints in HG result in massive cost drops; anyone who can afford a TL13 PP is going to recoup far more on their investment in even a J1 merchant. People who just "Oh, just multiply by parsec" really don't understand the nature of ship design. Any such rule of thumb only works for a narrow range. Also, almost half the cost of a HP is a fixed cost with no relation to distance by jump: the Maint cost; fraction of payment; life support costs; fraction of steward and medic's LS, salaries, Stateroom fractions of maintenance and monthly payment. Essentially, these are unit-time costs. Only the space costs (counting the payload space lost from cargo by installing staterooms (including the medic and steward staterooms), plus HP baggage climb in cost with distance travelled in one jump.

Given the costs, even at lowest, I don't think there will be any scheduled J6 shipping; a 7:1 cost increase for 1/2 the time taken (vs 2x J3) means a J3 ship can beat the price, undercut it by a large margin, and still charge more than cost.

Edit Note: 8 Nov 2021: reformatting table from monospaced text to hypertext

 

[aramis]

CT 2E values

Op Cost Per Ton Per Jump
________ Tonnage ________ J1 ________ J2 ________ J3 ________ J4 ________ J5 ________ J6
_________ 100.00 ___ 1,745.2 ____ 4634.5 _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- __________
_________ 200.00 _____ 778.2 ____ 1686.5 ____ 4901.7 _______ --- _______ --- __________
_________ 400.00 _____ 713.5 ____ 1332.6 ____ 2270.5 ____ 5655.7 ___ 45961.3 __________
_________ 600.00 _____ 656.0 ____ 1187.7 ____ 2232.1 ____ 4475.1 ___ 14593.8 __________
_________ 800.00 _____ 641.5 ______ 1142 ____ 2071.8 ____ 4056.9 ___ 10829.7 __________
_______ 1,000.00 _____ 672.0 ____ 1178.2 ____ 2099.4 ____ 4041.2 ____ 9751.4 ___ 37189.3
_______ 2,000.00 _____ 623.3 ____ 1109.4 ____ 1548.9 ______ 2190 ____ 3351.9 ____ 5814.1
_______ 3,000.00 _____ 643.9 _____ 950.8 ____ 1296.9 ____ 1757.6 _______ --- __________
_______ 4,000.00 _____ 640.2 _____ 858.7 ____ 1142.4 _______ --- _______ --- __________
_______ 5,000.00 _____ 595.3 _______ 794 _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- __________
____________ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- __________
________ Average ____ 770.90 __ 1,487.50 __ 2,195.50 __ 3,696.10 _ 16,897.60 _ 21,501.70
_________ Median ____ 650.00 __ 1,160.10 __ 2,085.60 __ 4,049.10 _ 10,829.70 _ 21,501.70
____________ Max __ 1,745.20 __ 4,634.50 __ 4,901.70 __ 5,655.70 _ 45,961.30 _ 37,189.30
____________ Min ____ 595.30 ____ 794.20 __ 1,142.40 __ 1,757.60 __ 3,351.90 __ 5,814.10
______ Std. Dev. ____ 346.10 __ 1,134.30 __ 1,176.50 __ 1,464.40 _ 16,743.50 _ 22,185.60
____________ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- __________
__________ Basal ____ 996.10 __ 2,294.40 __ 3,262.10 __ 4,686.40 _ 27,573.20 _ 43,687.30
____________ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- __________
_____ Reasonable __ 1,000.00 __ 2,300.00 __ 3,300.00 __ 4,700.00 _ 27,600.00 _ 43,700.00
____________ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- __________
___________ Avg2 ____ 662.66 __ 1,137.79 __ 1,808.86 __ 3,696.08 __ 9,631.70 __ 5,814.10
________ Median2 ____ 643.90 __ 1,142.00 __ 2,071.80 __ 4,049.05 _ 10,290.55 __ 5,814.10
________ StdDev2 _____ 54.15 ____ 268.07 ____ 468.98 __ 1,464.39 __ 4,672.90 ______ 0.00
____________ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- __________
_________ basal2 ____ 698.05 __ 1,330.34 __ 2,080.36 __ 4,686.39 _ 12,697.69 __ 5,814.10
___________ +50% __ 1,047.07 __ 1,995.51 __ 3,120.54 __ 7,029.58 _ 19,046.54 __ 8,721.15
____ Reasonable2 ____ 700.00 __ 1,350.00 __ 2,100.00 __ 4,700.00 _ 12,700.00 __ 5,850.00
____ reasonable3 __ 1,050.00 __ 2,000.00 __ 3,150.00 __ 7,050.00 _ 19,050.00 __ 8,750.00

* indicates performance set below maximum possible for drive in order to reduce fuel use

All are minimum crew no weapons, no hardpoints, no space reserved for turrets.

Looking at these numbers, I'll note that a one odd combination is possible that aren't figured, but only by double occupancy crewing...
Namely: 800Td J6 (299817.3 per ton, 4 tons cargo)

All of these are based upon standard financing. Everything rounded to nearest Cr0.1

Normative cost is the lowest of Average+1StDev, Median+1StdDev, or Minimum+2StdDev.

The table looks rather different for 1E due to the (1) lack of matching PP/JD requirement and (2) lack of Comp≥Jn requirement.


Edit: caught an error in the SS, fixed, reran. split

 

[aramis]

Drives J/M/P and TL
Tonnage _______J1 ______J2 _____J3 ______J4 ______J5 ______J6
__200 _______AAA*9 ___AAA 9 __--- - ___--- - ___--- - ___--- -
__400 _______AAA 9 ___BAB 9 __CAC 9 ___DAD 9 ___--- - ___--- -
__600 _______CCC 9 ___FCF A __JCJ B ___MCM C ___QCQ D ___--- -
__800 _______DDD 9 ___HDH A __MDM C ___RDR E ___VDV F ___--- -
_1000 _______EEE A ___KEK B __QEQ D ___VEV F ___WEW F ___YEY F
_2000 _______JJJ B ___VJV F __XJX F ___YJY F ___ZJZ*F ___ZJZ F
_3000 _______QQQ D ___XQX F __ZQZ*F ___ZQZ F ___--- - ___--- -
_4000 _______VVV F ___YVY F __ZVZ F ___--- - ___--- - ___--- -
_5000 _______WWW F ___ZWZ F __--- - ___--- - ___--- - ___--- -
Drives table to match the above.

 

[aramis]

CT1E Table
________ Tonnage ________ J1 ________ J2 ________ J3 ________ J4 ________ J5 ________ J6
__________ 100.0 ___ 1,745.2 ___ 4,395.5 __ 98,277.0 _______ --- _______ --- __________
__________ 200.0 _____ 778.2 ___ 1,300.5 ___ 2,236.2 ___ 4,256.3 __ 14,054.0 __________
__________ 400.0 _____ 713.5 ___ 1,108.1 ___ 1,798.7 ___ 2,527.8 ___ 5,105.4 __ 16,791.3
__________ 600.0 _____ 656.0 ___ 1,047.3 ___ 1,624.6 ___ 2,651.0 ___ 4,740.0 __ 12,519.8
__________ 800.0 _____ 641.5 ___ 1,000.0 ___ 1,573.1 ___ 2,485.8 ___ 4,584.5 ___ 9,259.3
________ 1,000.0 _____ 672.0 ___ 1,057.8 ___ 1,632.7 ___ 2,633.2 ___ 4,103.8 ___ 7,437.3
________ 2,000.0 _____ 623.3 _____ 998.5 ___ 1,333.8 ___ 1,798.9 ___ 2,608.4 ___ 4,027.7
________ 3,000.0 _____ 643.9 _____ 903.7 ___ 1,195.3 ___ 1,580.9 _______ --- __________
________ 4,000.0 _____ 640.2 _____ 841.3 ___ 1,097.0 _______ --- _______ --- __________
________ 5,000.0 _____ 595.3 _____ 780.8 _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- __________
____________ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- __________
________ Average _____ 770.9 ___ 1,343.4 __ 12,307.6 ___ 2,562.0 ___ 5,866.0 __ 10,007.1
_________ Median _____ 650.0 ___ 1,023.7 ___ 1,624.6 ___ 2,527.8 ___ 4,662.3 ___ 9,259.3
____________ Max ___ 1,745.2 ___ 4,395.5 __ 98,277.0 ___ 4,256.3 __ 14,054.0 __ 16,791.3
____________ Min _____ 595.3 _____ 780.8 ___ 1,097.0 ___ 1,580.9 ___ 2,608.4 ___ 4,027.7
______ Std. Dev. _____ 346.1 ___ 1,082.2 __ 32,240.3 _____ 859.8 ___ 4,104.9 ___ 4,879.9
____________ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- __________
__________ Basal _____ 996.1 ___ 2,105.9 __ 33,864.9 ___ 3,300.5 ___ 8,767.2 __ 13,787.5
____________ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- __________
_____ Reasonable ___ 1,000.0 ___ 2,150.0 __ 33,900.0 ___ 3,350.0 ___ 8,800.0 __ 13,800.0
____________ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- __________
___________ Avg2 _____ 662.7 ___ 1,004.2 ___ 1,465.0 ___ 2,279.6 ___ 4,009.2 ___ 4,027.7
________ Median2 _____ 643.9 ___ 1,000.0 ___ 1,573.1 ___ 2,506.8 ___ 4,344.2 ___ 4,027.7
________ StdDev2 ______ 54.1 _____ 154.1 _____ 258.8 _____ 466.1 _____ 972.3 _______ 0.0
____________ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- _______ --- __________
_________ basal2 _____ 698.0 ___ 1,089.0 ___ 1,614.7 ___ 2,513.1 ___ 4,553.0 ___ 4,027.7
___________ +50% ___ 1,047.0 ___ 1,633.5 ___ 2,422.1 ___ 3,769.7 ___ 6,829.5 ___ 6,041.5
____ Reasonable2 _____ 700.0 ___ 1,100.0 ___ 1,650.0 ___ 2,550.0 ___ 4,600.0 ___ 4,050.0
____ reasonable3 ___ 1,050.0 ___ 1,650.0 ___ 2,450.0 ___ 3,800.0 ___ 6,850.0 ___ 6,050.0

Note that J6 "reasonable" numbers are broken - I'll fix them monday.

"Reasonable" numbers are rounded to next Cr50
2 series throws out highest price.
3 is based upon reasonable 2+50% markup.

 

[aramis]

Bk2 costs per day for system ships (no J-Drive)
___ Td ___ 1G ____ 2G _____ 3G _____ 4G _____ 5G _____ 6G
__ 100 __ 59.4 __ 82.4 __ 160.7 __ 241.9 __ 770.2 ____ ---
__ 200 __ 40.3 __ 54.3 ___ 56.7 ___ 77.1 __ 104.1 __ 142.7
__ 400 __ 29.8 __ 38.9 ___ 49.2 ___ 63.2 ___ 63.3 ___ 78.4
__ 600 __ 27.4 __ 35.6 ___ 45.8 ___ 56.0 ___ 69.0 ___ 77.5
__ 800 __ 26.2 __ 34.8 ___ 43.4 ___ 53.7 ___ 64.2 ___ 71.8
_ 1000 __ 28.5 __ 36.6 ___ 45.8 ___ 55.2 ___ 58.0 ___ 61.8
_ 2000 __ 27.0 __ 35.2 ___ 37.1 ___ 38.2 ___ 39.3 ___ 39.7
_ 3000 __ 27.4 __ 30.9 ___ 32.1 ___ 32.3 ____ --- ____ ---
_ 4000 __ 27.2 __ 28.4 ___ 28.9 ____ --- ____ --- ____ ---
_ 5000 __ 26.0 __ 27.0 ____ --- ____ --- ____ --- ____ ---

Note that no down time is figured - if a trip turn around is typically 5 days (as with "normal" starship operations ...), a freight passage taking 2 days will likely be charged 7 days. Figure out what your downtime is.

Month is presumed to be the canonical 28 day month.

I've not adjusted this for a profit margin - I'd expect at least 50% markup, maybe even 100%. In systems with deep gravity wells to fly down, I'd expect routine operations to be at about 50%.

 

[aramis]

For those of us whose brains must move between numerous versions of Traveller several times a day, can you explain this slower?

Because my response is something akin to: "And this means?"

I want a table telling me what good numbers are to charge for passages based on number of jumps, or something similar, and charges for Cargo, etc. Or a way to build a table like that for use IMTU.

Category	J1	j2	j3	j4	j5	j6
Cargo 1Td	KCr1	KCr 2	KCr3.5	KCr6	KCr15	KCr50
Middle Passage Single Occupancy	KCr8	KCr13	KCr20.5	KCr33	KCr48	KCr153
High Passage Single Occupancy	KCr10	KCr16	KCr25	KCr40	KCr94	KCr304
Low Passage	KCr1	KCr1.5	KCr2.25	KCr3.5	KCr8	KCr25.5
Middle Passage Double Occupancy	KCr5	KCr7.5	KCr10.6	KCr17.5	KCr40	KCr127.5
High Passage Double Occupancy	KCr6.5	KCr9.75	KCr14.65	KCr22.75	KCr51.75	KCr165.75

[tc=7]Bk2 design costs by distance for optimized carriers[/tc] [tc=7][/tc]

That better for you? Price is per jump of a given range. Note that reduced costs for shorter jumps in longer ranged ships could be worked out, but that the markets will not bear the higher prices.