CT HG Battery Rule
- Thread starter aramis
- Start date
Dear Aramis -
For me, the telling passage is "A battery may be as few as one turret." This suggests that there may be (up to three) mounts in one turret, that could then be grouped into one battery.
In HG terms, you could have (for example) a single turret with three factor-1 laser batteries, or one factor-3 [I think: working from memory here!] laser battery - all with only three mounts.
Note that this distinction is usually only a problem for sub-1000t ships; that is, "PC-sized" vessels. There is a passage somewhere that reads "warships generally mount one type of weapon per turret", or words to that effect. Only PC's want the option to mix-n-match.
BTW, I think the rules state that you can only reconfigure your batteries at a shipyard, not during combat. Personally, I think that reduces the... um, creativity of the players too much. I would suggest a house rule allowing the PCs to regroup their weaponry, but costing them a turn of firing. Oh, and they better make their roll as well - probably Engineering or Turret Weapons with an enabler of Ship Tactics... what do you think?
For me, the telling passage is "A battery may be as few as one turret." This suggests that there may be (up to three) mounts in one turret, that could then be grouped into one battery.
In HG terms, you could have (for example) a single turret with three factor-1 laser batteries, or one factor-3 [I think: working from memory here!] laser battery - all with only three mounts.
Note that this distinction is usually only a problem for sub-1000t ships; that is, "PC-sized" vessels. There is a passage somewhere that reads "warships generally mount one type of weapon per turret", or words to that effect. Only PC's want the option to mix-n-match.
BTW, I think the rules state that you can only reconfigure your batteries at a shipyard, not during combat. Personally, I think that reduces the... um, creativity of the players too much. I would suggest a house rule allowing the PCs to regroup their weaponry, but costing them a turn of firing. Oh, and they better make their roll as well - probably Engineering or Turret Weapons with an enabler of Ship Tactics... what do you think?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I used to think this was simple:
Single turret - 1 weapon mount
Double turret - 2 weapon mounts
Triple turret - 3 weapon mounts
Then HG2 introduced the 2t energy weapon turret with space for 2 energy weapons.
Can you only put 1 energy weapon in the turret then add one sandcaster/laser/missile rack or two?
Single turret - 1 weapon mount
Double turret - 2 weapon mounts
Triple turret - 3 weapon mounts
Then HG2 introduced the 2t energy weapon turret with space for 2 energy weapons.
Can you only put 1 energy weapon in the turret then add one sandcaster/laser/missile rack or two?
My understanding is that you can put one energy weapon in a turret, and one other weapon. For example, one sandcaster or one missile rack.
Hyphen, I have to disagree. To me, that phrase implies that no battery may be less than a turret, except in a mixed turret.
I'm with you on this, Bill.
A mount is a single turret, barbette etc.; even a triple mount is still single, blame military english. 
Generally the reason behind the word mount is to denote the style: turret, fixed, pintel, etc. .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon_mount
Generally the reason behind the word mount is to denote the style: turret, fixed, pintel, etc. .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon_mount
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A mount is a single turret, barbette etc.; even a triple mount is still single, blame military english.
Generally the reason behind the word mount is to denote the style: turret, fixed, pintel, etc. .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon_mount
Interesting article. It starts with
"A weapon mount is a weapon component used to secure an armament."
and continues on to describe the things a weapon may be secured to...
With the obvious exception of "Coaxial Mount" which obviously describes a secondary weapon mount within a turret. Pity it doesn't discuss the "Primary Weapon Mount".
Regardless, I note the article describes turrets as mounted to a variety of stuff including Naval ships. Aramis, this may be part of your point on the 'traditional' use of the word mounts?
I'll add that Book 5 very carefully avoids the use of the phrase 'mount' when it comes to turrets. In Book 5 turrets are 'emplaced' or 'installed', not 'mounted'. The phrase 'mount' is only used (& repeatedly) to describe weapons being mounted in turrets (similar to the Coaxial & Primary Weapon Mounts mentioned above).
And mounting a weapon in a turret requires a weapon mount, which is "a weapon component used to secure an armament."
Comments on this post are welcome, but please quote the post & reply on this thread
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=24404
Cheers
Agree. The intent looks clear to me.
It doesn't seem clear what people are trying to say in that thread. Needless to say, the turret is the mount:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_turret
You will note the definition you chopped off...
A gun turret is a weapon mount that protects the crew or mechanism of a projectile-firing weapon and at the same time lets the weapon be aimed and fired in many directions.
The turret is also a rotating weapon platform. This platform can be mounted on a fortified building or structure such as an anti-naval land battery, or on an armoured fighting vehicle, a naval ship, or a military aircraft.
Turrets may be armed with one or more machine guns, automatic cannons, large-calibre guns, or missile launchers. It may be manned or remotely controlled, and is often armoured. A small turret, or sub-turret on a larger one, is called a cupola. The term cupola also describes rotating turrets that carry no weapons but instead sighting devices, as in the case of tank commanders. A finial is an extremely small sub-turret or sub-sub-turret mounted on a cupola turret.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_turret, accessed 22 April 2011.The turret is also a rotating weapon platform. This platform can be mounted on a fortified building or structure such as an anti-naval land battery, or on an armoured fighting vehicle, a naval ship, or a military aircraft.
Turrets may be armed with one or more machine guns, automatic cannons, large-calibre guns, or missile launchers. It may be manned or remotely controlled, and is often armoured. A small turret, or sub-turret on a larger one, is called a cupola. The term cupola also describes rotating turrets that carry no weapons but instead sighting devices, as in the case of tank commanders. A finial is an extremely small sub-turret or sub-sub-turret mounted on a cupola turret.
Note the "one or more."
A turret is thus a mount, and may mount multiple weapons.
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starwaster2
SOC-5
Apologies, but you are all making this more complicated than it needs to be. The solution is to disregard all usage of the word mount. Acknowledge that it exists in the book but that it contributes nothing with respect to designing a ship.
Why is this needed? Are you trying to configure the ship's batteries? Bottom line is all you really need is to determine how many total weapons are going into each battery and consult the appropriate table.
Factor 9 Beam laser batteries? Each battery has 30 beam lasers in it.
Problem solved.
Rinse and repeat.
Why is this needed? Are you trying to configure the ship's batteries? Bottom line is all you really need is to determine how many total weapons are going into each battery and consult the appropriate table.
Factor 9 Beam laser batteries? Each battery has 30 beam lasers in it.
Problem solved.
Rinse and repeat.
shadowcat20
SOC-12
I always saw a mount as a single hardpoint reguardless of weapons count or mix. Part of my reasoning was from High Guard page 29 under Batteries.
"Ships with more than 10 Mounts of the same type must group them into batteries"
Also
"A Battery may be as few as one turret or as many as ten,"
Now when you look at the charts for weapons codes they go up to 30 weapons to get a code so 10 turrets with 3 weapons each = 30 weapons.
Also batteries are groups of hardpoints, and hard points all have to be the same weapon after you go over ten turrets on a ship. (Pg29)
Again Page 29 states Mixed turrets are only allowed on ships under 1K tons. So for ships over 1K tons all turrets will be of the same weapon config by turret (All Lasers in #1 , all missiles in #2, Ect)
So 30 Beam Lasers at TL 12 can be a battery of 10 turrets (30 tubes), or 2 batteries of 5 turrets (15 tubes) but not 3 batteries of 10 tubes as that would not divide up the turrets evenly. All weapons on a hardpoint MUST go to the same battery.
Or this is my take on it anyway
.....
"Ships with more than 10 Mounts of the same type must group them into batteries"
Also
"A Battery may be as few as one turret or as many as ten,"
Now when you look at the charts for weapons codes they go up to 30 weapons to get a code so 10 turrets with 3 weapons each = 30 weapons.
Also batteries are groups of hardpoints, and hard points all have to be the same weapon after you go over ten turrets on a ship. (Pg29)
Again Page 29 states Mixed turrets are only allowed on ships under 1K tons. So for ships over 1K tons all turrets will be of the same weapon config by turret (All Lasers in #1 , all missiles in #2, Ect)
So 30 Beam Lasers at TL 12 can be a battery of 10 turrets (30 tubes), or 2 batteries of 5 turrets (15 tubes) but not 3 batteries of 10 tubes as that would not divide up the turrets evenly. All weapons on a hardpoint MUST go to the same battery.
Or this is my take on it anyway
.....
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Except you are making up a hardpoint/turret rule that isn't there.
10 lasers = battery #5
30 lasers = 3 x battery #5
It just so happens that 30 lasers fit nicely into 10 triple turrets.
This issue disappears if the 10 is a typo for 12 in the weapon table.
And are you really saying ships with over 10 hardpoints have only one weapon type?
What about all the canon designs with turret batteries of laser and sandcaster?
10 lasers = battery #5
30 lasers = 3 x battery #5
It just so happens that 30 lasers fit nicely into 10 triple turrets.
This issue disappears if the 10 is a typo for 12 in the weapon table.
And are you really saying ships with over 10 hardpoints have only one weapon type?
What about all the canon designs with turret batteries of laser and sandcaster?
Are those in Book 5?
Or Book 2?
Book five combat requires battery formation.
Book five says you must for batteries if you have more than 10 mounts of a type.
It says you MAY form batteries even if you are not required to do so, but will need to per errata that requires book 5 combat be resolved by battery fire.
It says if you DO form batteries (whether forcibly or by choice), they must be at least one turret (and not more than ten).
It says if you form batteries (whether forcibly or by choice) they MUST be the same factor code.
SO even if you are NOT required to form batteries, but choose to do so, you still have to put all the weapons of the type into batteries, make the smallest battery no smaller than one turret, and all batteries must be the same code.
It does NOT say you can choose to ignore the battery formation rules just because you are not REQUIRED to form the batteries.
So your example is invalid.
shadowcat20
SOC-12
All weapons of a battery need to be the same weapon. You can have different types of weapons on a ship. So 2 batteries of lasers, a battery of casters ect. I was saying you could not have 10 triple turrets with laser, caster,missile mix counting as three different batteries. One of lasers, one of casters, and one of Missiles. Amoung other things targeting different things at different bearings would make it impossable to do. This is also why it is reasonable that weapons tubes on a turret can not be split between batteries. How can a turret with 3 tubes fire fore, aft, and port at the same time because the three lasers are split between three different batteries?
It all comes down to what you want for your game in the end though.
It all comes down to what you want for your game in the end though.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
LBB5 - check the weapon USP tables.
My example is at least one turret...
My example is all 3 batteries the same factor...
Which I have done:
30 lasers - 10 triple turrets - organized as 3 batteries of 10 weapons - which is more than one turret hence the one turret minimum battery size is moot.
I'm not ignoring them - I'm applying them as per the table on page 25.
I really don't understand your conclusion.
I think he is claiming mount = turret in sentance one, but mount = weapon in sentance two (Batteries section pg 28). Kinda having it both ways to avoid the problems relating to "turrets of a type must be grouped".
None of which invalidates my point, which is that a turret contains mounts to secure weapons to. Eg from that article, the Coaxial mount.
...on thier weapon mounts within the turret.
In BB turret's these are called Deck Lugs & Slides. On smaller naval artillery these are the Stand, Carrage & Slide. I'm sure I can find more manuals on the other examples you quote, to support the assertion that a weapon attaches to weapon mounts within a turret.
The alternative is either the turret is a solid state unit or weapons are not mounted inside a turret as there are no mounts for them.
