Damage CT vs MgT

[Icosahedron]

Not Mongoose bashing here (I'm playing it) but I had a situation in which a PC was finding his dagger ineffectual and picked up a large pebble as an imporovised weapon. He proceeded to do more damage with the pebble than he had previously done with a precision fighting implement! (Dagger 1D6+2, Pebble (improvised club) 2D6).

That made me take a careful look at the damage figures in MgT and compare them with each other and with CT.

In CT 1st ed, damage was in the form of XD6+Y. In CT 2nd ed it was a straight XD6, then MgT reverted to the XD6+Y format.

Why did FFE change the damage format?
Why did Mongoose change the damage format back?
Has anyone else had problems with MgT damage?
Did any old-timers have problems with CT 1st ed damage?
Has anyone noted problems with CT 2nd ed damage?
Which format is best IYO, XD6+Y or XD6, and why?

I thought there was a rule somewhere that improvised weapons inflicted reduced damage compared with their designed equivalents, but I can't find it. Maybe that was my own houserule from long ago - anyone recognise it from canon?

I'm looking to houserule a few changes to MgT damage and I want to avoid any obvious pitfalls.

Thanks.

 

[jawillroy]

Not Mongoose bashing here (I'm playing it) but I had a situation in which a PC was finding his dagger ineffectual and picked up a large pebble as an imporovised weapon.

While I haven't seen Mongoose's rules, my gut tells me that this isn't a problem with the rules, so much as a problem with a PC trying to take silly advantage of them, and a Ref letting it happen. In CT, sure, you can improvise a club out of all sorts of things - bottles, table legs, ornamental lamps, rifles, musical instruments, housepets and so forth. But when a PC says that his pebble's going to serve as a weapon (and he hasn't gone to the trouble of improvising a sling to chuck it) I don't see how that'd ever do any better than him fighting barehanded, in any system.

A good time for the Ref to say, "NO. That doesn't work. It is a pebble, not a rock."Then give the guy benefit of the doubt and let him get the full benefit of fighting barehanded, rather than penalizing him with a bone bruise in his palm for having the silly little pebble in his scrawny fist when he's trying to deck a guy.

 

[toddaroo]

I thought there was a rule somewhere that improvised weapons inflicted reduced damage compared with their designed equivalents, but I can't find it. Maybe that was my own houserule from long ago - anyone recognise it from canon?

Page 98 of the core book states that an Improvised Weapon deals 2d6-2 damage. Also, Improvised Weapons have the second highest Heft rating, which affects how well they can be used in combat.

Something else to consider is that the damage system is pretty abstract so can be abused easily. One can wax on poetically about blunt trauma vs cutting/slashing vs puncture type wounds and how they all differ in degrees of lethality, but at the end of the day it is still only a reduction to one's Stat. This is where the GM steps in and moderates the abstractions, you know? I'd much rather be cracked in the arm with a pebble than cut or stabbed with a dagger any day.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Page 98 of the core book states that an Improvised Weapon deals 2d6-2 damage.

Thanks for the page reference. I started looking for this as soon as I saw the OP.

(Dagger 1D6+2, Pebble (improvised club) 2D6).

So, as I thought, a club is 2D6 but an improvised weapon is 2D6-2.

picked up a large pebble as an imporovised weapon

Pebble as a weapon?

While I haven't seen Mongoose's rules, my gut tells me that this isn't a problem with the rules...

Well, the rules do say "any snatched up object can be used as an impromptu club". But as a GM I would not let a child's soft pink fluffy bunny stuffed toy be used as an improvised club. [Please do imagine a man in combat armor whaling away on their opponent with such an item. The bunny ripping open, stuffing flying, the opponent screaming in terror while repeatedly taking 2D6-2 (+effect) damage, the opponents comrades fleeing "Retreat! Retreat! He has a pink bunny!".] Nor would I allow a pebble to be used as a 2D6-2 improvised weapon. Typically I look at the rules as a guideline. In this case I believe it is indicating that the use of improvised weapons is allowed (at GM discretion) and the improvised weapon should do, on average, less damage than the item it is imitating.

I had a situation in which a PC was finding his dagger ineffectual... ...He proceeded to do more damage with the pebble than he had previously done with a precision fighting implement!

Much of this can be just the randomness of the die roll.
Dagger 1D6+2 = 3-8 damage and an average of 5.5
Improvised weapon at 2D6-2 = 0-10 damage and an average of 5
With just this info, the improvised weapon could randomly do more damage than the dagger but on average it will be less.

(improvised club) 2D6)

Allowing a pebble as not only an improvised weapon but with the same damage as a club? Then yes 2D6 = 2-12 damage and an average of 7 will let the pebble be more effective than the dagger.

Also of note is the skill difference between the weapons. unarmed vs bludgeon vs blade

I'm looking to houserule a few changes to MgT damage and I want to avoid any obvious pitfalls.

I'm not so sure there needs to be a 'house rule'. Just an understanding that the GM has the right to determine what is an improvised weapon.

One pitfall I see is in making too much of a tweak to damage. Currently the average for an improvised weapon (5) is slightly better than unarmed (3.5) but less than the weapons it would imitate such as a dagger (5.5), and club (7).

To me this makes it realistic
- for someone with a melee weapon skill to improve their chance to hit and damage capability by improvising a weapon they have more skill with than unarmed
- for someone that has no melee skill to improvise a weapon
- for someone with skill (melee(unarmed) 1) in brawling to fight unarmed instead of improvising a weapon they are unfamiliar with [My analysis of current rules: unarmed is 3.5pts average damage but +1 because skill level would go towards effect which is added to damage. So 4.5 average damage is slightly less than the average of 5 for improvised weapon but the added skill level also gives a +1DM to 'hit'. So I think it's possible a character with just one level of unarmed skill and no other melee skills would not waste time improvising a weapon.]

 

[jawillroy]

Well, the rules do say "any snatched up object can be used as an impromptu club".

Really? Oooh. That's a little sloppy: someone should have really thought about what that sentence meant before letting it get through editing. It's a shame for a PC to be hanging his hopes on those words and a pebble, though.

Although if anything, it would be delightful to have a squad of battle armored marines running in terror, screaming, "Oh NOOOO! It's the girls of Pi Beta Phi! And THEY HAVE FRILLY PILLOWS!" *cue enthusiastic sorority SQUEEEE, speed up film, Yackity Sax, roll credits*

 

[Jame]

Has anyone else had problems with MgT damage?
Has anyone noted problems with CT 2nd ed damage?
Which format is best IYO, XD6+Y or XD6, and why?

I think that the guns are rather underpowered, especially the rifles. I would have regular (not gauss) pistols do 3d6 damage straight, and regular (also not gauss) rifles do 4d6. With gauss weapons doing 5d6. Oh, and leave laser weapons alone. The 3d6-3 for pistols seems silly.

 

[jawillroy]

Also, Improvised Weapons have the second highest Heft rating

Aha! The clever GM foils the pesky rules lawyer thus*, where X = the third highest heft rating:
"Kindly note X."
"Yah?"
"X has the third highest heft rating. Is it heftier than a pebble?"
"..."
"X is heftier than a pebble. Improvised weapons are heftier than X. Your pebble is not an improvised weapon. Whoops! While you've been figuring that out for yourself, your foe has been striking you about the head and ears with a frilly pillow. She's Pi Beta Phi, too, so she automatically has Frilly Pillow-3... What career would you like for your next character?"

 

[atpollard]

I'd much rather be cracked in the arm with a pebble than cut or stabbed with a dagger any day.

That's what Goliath thought until David proved him wrong.

 

[jawillroy]

That's what Goliath thought until David proved him wrong.

<quibble>David had a sling to chuck it with. Not an improvised weapon!</quibble>

 

[aramis]

CT2E (1981 on) uses whole dice to simplify damage taking. Damage is taken, 1d at a time, to individual stats, with excess on the die being a muddy area; every GM I knew chose to either drop the surplus on the die or to treat it as reducing the healable level, I'm told many carried it over to another stat, but we never saw that happen. Stats at or below 0 can't take further dice... and the plusses were really a pain.

The simplification to whole dice seems to have happened at the publication of Snapshot, but I've not seen early printings.

MGT does not do damage die-by-die. It does a lump sum, one stat at a time, til stat zeroed, remainder going on to next stat. 1st stat always end, 2nd either str or dex, and armor reduces damage... so it's a simpler solution.

 

[jawillroy]

every GM I knew chose to either drop the surplus on the die.

Nice of them - I always assumed it carried over. I imagine they killed less folks off thattaway...

 

[Cryton]

I'm not having much of a problem with the MgT system, other than I'm finding it a bit bloody!

Take for example, my players captured a NPC whom they were to retrieve alive for a mission, a 1 term entertainer who was most definitely resisting the capture. Having spent several minuets in the players custody, he threw a punch at one of the players catching the players by surprise (Dex mod +2, Melee-unarmed +1.), The player in question, was running a Marine, elected not to dodge. I rolled an 11, with mods, giving me a 14, for effect of 6. Rolling damage, got lucky, scoring a 5, for 11 points of damage to the unarmored marine. The marine had an End of 8, respectable, but not up to par, and his End was now 0, with the remaining 3 points of damage going to his Str. This had the effect of knocking him unconscious as well (we were using the optional knockout blow rule p66).

Initiative was then rolled (NPC was at the top of the chart) and havoc then ensued as the NPC tried to put the beat-down on the remaining two players. By the end of the combat and the NPS subdued, the remaining two players were pretty beaten up. They ended up having to use stunners to bring him down.

One thing that was said when all was done was that they were happy the NPC had not been able to get a hold of any weapons, as that first attack could have severely injured someone (improvised weapon would have done from 5 to 14 points[additional -1 for personal range and for his his 0 skill], a club 7 to 16pts [additional -1 due to range and -1 for his 0 skill], a dagger [-1 only for his 0 skill] 8 to 11pts with that 6 effect roll. And if the NPC had gotten a hold of one of the players guns, 6 to 20 points counting in the -1 range mod.).

One thing you'll notice is that on the damage ranges, that the only guaranteed a KO on the marine with that lucky fx 6 roll, even if damage rolled had been minimum, was the dagger, which overall due to averages, is still a much better weapon than anything improvised. and even with a -1 due to only having a functional skill level of 0, a better option than his brawling skills by an average of 1 point per round.

They got the reward for retrieving the NPC alive and bought armor, which saved their characters lives when they got into a gunfight.

 

[aramis]

Nice of them - I always assumed it carried over. I imagine they killed less folks off thattaway...

Most actually reduced the permanent stat... so it wasn't so nice.

Joe BDF666 takes a 3d hit. Him being uninjured, it all goes to the same stat until that zeroes. We always applied big dice first, too. Damage Roll: 655

• Lost, takes it to...
  Str: now current 0DF666 and has a 5 left to place, put it in End.
  Dex: Now current B0F666
  End: now current BD0666
• Reduces permanent:
  Str: as above.
  Dex: 16 to a 13... Current B0F666, but his new permanent is BAF666
  End: 16 to a 15... current BD0666, new permanent BDE666
• Carries over:
  Str: as above
  Dex: the first 11 fit, the 5 does 2 and three carry over to end: Current B0D666
  End: 16 to 15... the 1 carries over to Dex. BC0666.

In Mongoose's case, it's always going to be End on the first shot... So... BC0666.

Mongoose's method is faster, simpler to execute, easier to explain, but far less variable in outcomes.

 

[HG_B]

Initiative was then rolled (NPC was at the top of the chart) and havoc then ensued as the NPC tried to put the beat-down on the remaining two players. By the end of the combat and the NPS subdued, the remaining two players were pretty beaten up. They ended up having to use stunners to bring him down.

If I had run it and the others PCs were right there, I would have had them act immediately after the guy threw his punch. MUCH more realistic. At least for those having been in many fights.

 

[mike wightman]

The combat example in TTB and ST clearly show that excess damage is carried over to another stat.

 

[Cryton]

If I had run it and the others PCs were right there, I would have had them act immediately after the guy threw his punch. MUCH more realistic. At least for those having been in many fights.

Actually, it was pretty realistic. Both myself and my players are all ex-military and current members of the S.C.A., and we all found the surprise round, then initiative to be a fair simulation of how things work out when your not expecting things to happen. Sometimes your the bug, sometimes your the windshield.

 

[Icosahedron]

Thanks for the responses, guys, some food for thought here.

 

[HG_B]

Actually, it was pretty realistic. Both myself and my players are all ex-military and current members of the S.C.A., and we all found the surprise round, then initiative to be a fair simulation of how things work out when your not expecting things to happen. Sometimes your the bug, sometimes your the windshield.

I guess it depends on how fast your reflexes are and how well drilled. I could see the rules being realistic for those who aren't sufficiently drilled to respond without having to think about it. YMMV

 

[nats]

I have seen pebbles that I wouldnt want to be hit with.