decoy tactics for destroyers/escorts

[CliffBates]

What would be the equivalent of a smoke screen in space? Yes Black Globes really doesn't give you true invisibility. So what would give you the equivalence of what smoke screens give to destroyers/escorts in surface naval warfare?

But would chaff launchers give enough sensor blocking that could give cover for under 5k ships and less? Perhaps decoys (the size of missiles) that send off sensor jamming around a ship?

 

[Vargas]

Nukes.

Less facetiously, the answer is electronic warfare coupled with low observable features. It's hard to do perfect 1:1 comparisons between surface and space naval combat.

 

[Selandia]

true, hard to have perfect comparison between TL 4-5 seabattle and High TL space battle

The old CT standby is "sand", as in Sandcaster. I actually play it as a combo flare/EMshaff/reflective dust. Far from perfect, but then, the Smokescreen was inoperative against radar. Like Sand, Smoke screen did not provide true stealth (somebody had to be out there to turn out smoke). It did make visual targeting a problem

Once you reach space travel TL, ECM is likely the name of the game.

have fun

Selandia

 

[CliffBates]

true, hard to have perfect comparison between TL 4-5 seabattle and High TL space battle

The old CT standby is "sand", as in Sandcaster. I actually play it as a combo flare/EMshaff/reflective dust. Far from perfect, but then, the Smokescreen was inoperative against radar. Like Sand, Smoke screen did not provide true stealth (somebody had to be out there to turn out smoke). It did make visual targeting a problem

Once you reach space travel TL, ECM is likely the name of the game.

have fun

Selandia

Yes ECM... but also things that give off the wrong not only electronic signatures but radiation blasts to confuse them what they are targeting. That is to say, you are sending out missiles but they are designed to message they are destroyers or cruisers (both in terms of the kind of sensor signal that is being returned or picked up by the attacking/defending ship). Also for the TL 14+ who has visual sensors perhaps add on to the decoy's holographic projection of something they are not?

 

[CliffBates]

Nukes.

Less facetiously, the answer is electronic warfare coupled with low observable features. It's hard to do perfect 1:1 comparisons between surface and space naval combat.

Yes, but a nuke is a flash bulb effect. What one would like is something that would generate a completely false neutrino signature (and as well as give off a corresponding false visual [to deal with the TL 14+ visual sensors]).

 

[wbyrd]

It would be doable...some sort of liquid or aerosol ejected from vents on the ship..they turn to crystals and obscure LIDAR and thermal...add a bunch of radar reflective dusts..and presto...

on that note i saw a Bt on myth busters..they had busted the scene n a movie where dust obscured FLIR...and then tried to replicate the effect..using dry ice fire extinguishers...the cold gas and crystals turned the flir image into a black cloud that hid everything behind it.

you could definitely tell there as something there but no detail came through, and you could not precisely tell where people were or even if there was anyone still behind it.

personally I'd add some bangles with large radar reflections, and small heaters that gave it a large thermal signature..then for fun and giggles add strips of aluminum and some radio frequency emitters that ran trash signals on the same frequencies being used... a few well written filters on the comms and that would go away since YOU know what signals to look out for.

the result is that sensors are fogged over, and there aren't any clear signals to lock onto...unfortunately your sensors are muddied as well and now the smoke screen is working for both side.

It'd be good to cover tactical moves, or retreats, but would give you short term coverage, and make accurately firing through your own smoke...

of course firing missile/drones with active seekers through the smoke would work..they go through the smoke scan and find a nice juicy target to hit.

 

[whartung]

In TNE/BL/BR when a missile goes off, it "whites out" a hex, making detection more difficult.

Similarly, it offers Area Jamming, which does similar things.

 

[mike wightman]

What would be the equivalent of a smoke screen in space? Yes Black Globes really doesn't give you true invisibility. So what would give you the equivalence of what smoke screens give to destroyers/escorts in surface naval warfare?

But would chaff launchers give enough sensor blocking that could give cover for under 5k ships and less? Perhaps decoys (the size of missiles) that send off sensor jamming around a ship?

It depends on your ruleset of choice for what is possible.

Chaff isn't much use because it doesn't move with the ship, as soon as you accelerate you lose your chaff.

Now hold the chaff in a magnetic or gravitic field to disguise your true location within that cloud and you may have a useful spoofing device. The chaff screen operator could vary the dimensions of cloud on a completely random basis so the enemy vessel doesn't know where in the cloud you are.

To spoof neutrino sensors you need to be able to produce an artificial neutrino signal, but since neutrino sensors can come in portable forms lets assume a neutrino generator can be produced too (the neutrino sensor is possibly one of the most magical technologies traveller has ever introduced).

You could put a neutrino generator on your screening ships so that they are detected as battle ships. Or put your neutrino generators on drones to give false signatures completely.

 

[kilemall]

Here is a whole thread on upgrading the sandcaster to all manner of EW/decoy goodness. Should give you a starter set.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=34751

 

[Redcap]

The problem with low-observability systems is that to be effective from a passive perspective, the system has to be able to deflect, not reflect, active systems, so the idea is to prevent surfaces of the craft from reflecting back to the transmitting craft - not an easy aim to achieve in the 3D environment of space - easier in the effectively 2D oceanic surface environment, of course.

This leaves, barring 'miracle solutions', active ECM systems, which tell the Other Guys that "there's someone out there", which, if your mission is to remain undetected, is not a good thing at all.

As I see it, there's no easy solution.

 

[CliffBates]

It depends on your ruleset of choice for what is possible.

Chaff isn't much use because it doesn't move with the ship, as soon as you accelerate you lose your chaff.

Now hold the chaff in a magnetic or gravitic field to disguise your true location within that cloud and you may have a useful spoofing device. The chaff screen operator could vary the dimensions of cloud on a completely random basis so the enemy vessel doesn't know where in the cloud you are.

To spoof neutrino sensors you need to be able to produce an artificial neutrino signal, but since neutrino sensors can come in portable forms lets assume a neutrino generator can be produced too (the neutrino sensor is possibly one of the most magical technologies traveller has ever introduced).

You could put a neutrino generator on your screening ships so that they are detected as battle ships. Or put your neutrino generators on drones to give false signatures completely.

Could not Repulsers be useful here as a means to keep the cloud around the ship?

But those non-moving chaff clouds or areas might be able to mask things?

 

[kilemall]

The problem with low-observability systems is that to be effective from a passive perspective, the system has to be able to deflect, not reflect, active systems, so the idea is to prevent surfaces of the craft from reflecting back to the transmitting craft - not an easy aim to achieve in the 3D environment of space - easier in the effectively 2D oceanic surface environment, of course.

This leaves, barring 'miracle solutions', active ECM systems, which tell the Other Guys that "there's someone out there", which, if your mission is to remain undetected, is not a good thing at all.

As I see it, there's no easy solution.

The OP is not asking for full-on stealth, but the sort of thing smoke does.

Laying smoke definitely tells an opponent 'here be a warship', but it was still valuable to do anyway because it made a firing solution and hence accurate fire very difficult to do.

Chaffroc effectively does the same thing to IR and radar-based sensors, ironically giving a 'bigger' return but hopefully good enough to spoof the guidance and generate a miss.

There is more then one way to skin a fire controller.

 

[Redcap]

True; however, they all go hand-in-hand. After the engagement is begun, however, yes, you're bang on target (sic); this is where active ECM & ECCM start to play, where decoy drones should be deployed, and where the tech advantage and edge come very much into play. However, low-observability passive tech is a major factor, as any half-decent modern fighter/bomber designer will tell you - in an electronic-rich environment, the object with the lower detectable threshold will win every time that active systems are rendered ineffective.