'Dirty' money

[gchuck]

In the OTU & IMTU, most if not all monetary transactions are handled electronically, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm curious how some of you handle monetary transactions when you don't want the transfer 'on the books'?

What's the currency? Gold? Platinum? Zuchai crystals? Bills? Pretty rocks?

Players are going undercover, and may have to purchase a slave or two.

The idea of whipping out the old TAS Card, and buying a few people seems counter productive where law enforcement is concerned.

 

[McPerth]

In the OTU & IMTU, most if not all monetary transactions are handled electronically, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm curious how some of you handle monetary transactions when you don't want the transfer 'on the books'?

What's the currency? Gold? Platinum? Zuchai crystals? Bills? Pretty rocks?

Players are going undercover, and may have to purchase a slave or two.

The idea of whipping out the old TAS Card, and buying a few people seems counter productive where law enforcement is concerned.

IMTU (that is quite close to OTU, I'd say a variant of it), while most monetary trasactions are, as you say,electronic, cash is still kept, and IIRC there's an adventure in a JTAS issue where it's said that naval personnel is usually paid in cash, so I guess in OTU it is kept too.

The reason for this, at least officially, is that if not you can "outrun your credit" if you're moving far in the Imperium (or outside it) or by regions not too travelled. T4 specifies it in its comments about the Imperial Solars.

Of course, the idea the Imperium wants to have also the capacity to pay (or tolerate operations) in "black" money to keep its own black operations or to allow some business working can not be ruled out...

 

[Enoki]

IMTU that would be a "sliver."

Slivers are a small gold bar inside of which is a milligram of the super heavy, island of stability, element Organisium. This is a very long lived radioactive isotope that is extremely rare and generally only found near neutron stars.
Because of its rarity, it's valuable. Inserted into a sliver (which bears the date of manufacture, and other data printed or stamped into it for durability) the amount present can be measured as can decay elements.
This makes it virtually impossible to duplicate, easily scanned with TL 9+ technology and portable.
I run them at 5,000 IC a sliver. While you can't always exchange them at say a store or whatever, almost any world's banking system recognizes and accepts them so they're close to a universal form of "cash." They also make for a very useful black market and "questionable" trade practice form of currency.

This makes them a rough equivalent of say a krugerrand.

 

[Brandon C]

IMTU (that is quite close to OTU, I'd say a variant of it), while most monetary trasactions are, as you say,electronic, cash is still kept, and IIRC there's an adventure in a JTAS issue where it's said that naval personnel is usually paid in cash, so I guess in OTU it is kept too.

Aces & Eights? That is a scifi take on the old pirate buried treasure map adventure, which implies physical money. If the lost naval payoll was electronic, the 3I could have effectively just cancelled the debit cards on their end and reissued new cards, making the treasure a bunch of worthless plastic cards.

 

[Timerover51]

I posted this in another thread quite a while ago, but it looks like it would be appropriate to repost here.

For Interstellar Trade, the Imperial Credit is still used, but it is on a Gold Standard. For the Terran area, the Terran Credit is valued at 400 Credits to the troy ounce of Gold, or 12,860 Credit per Kilogram of Gold. The Capitol/Core Imperium, which calls itself the 3rd Imperium, pegs its Credit at 12,500 Credit per Kilogram of Gold, or 12.5 Credit per Gram. The Vland imperium, because of it relative closeness to the 3rd Imperium, does likewise. The Terran or Imperial Credit is often referred to as the Interstellar Credit.

Large denomination Credit notes are coded with a complex series of Carbon-14 markings as part of the plastic, and these are keyed to the Serial Number series. Major banks and planetary treasuries are supplied with the codes to each Serial series to verify authenticity. This is used primarily for large denomination notes of 10,000 Credits or larger. Gold can be demanded as payment at the above rate as well. Smaller denomination bills and coins are also marked with Carbon-14 on a standard basis by year, and routinely checked at banks and treasuries for the correct decay rate based on the year of issue. Counterfeiting is extremely difficult, short of having the assistance of a major government, but is occasionally used in wartime. Local currencies are pegged to the Credit either directly or through the use of an equivalent Gold Standard. The typical rate of exchange from Gold to Silver is One ounce or gram of Gold to 80 ounces or grams of Silver.

As lower Tech level planets, from 1 to 5, typically use a metallic-backed currency, they actually have a favorable exchange rate to the Interstellar Credit, as their currency is valued at a rate of around 20 to 40 local credits (note, local currency may be called by a variety of terms) to the ounce of Gold. Local terms for money may be Dollar, Pound, Franc, Peso, Guilder, Florin, Thaler, Ruble, or Ducat, among others. Local exchanges rates from Silver to Gold may be significantly different from the Interstellar standard, and make for interesting speculation and smuggling possibilities.

 

[jawillroy]

IMTU I like physical cash. I don't know that I've ever entirely decided on the actual metal, but whatever it is the CrImp for me is made of it - with layered anti-counterfeit measures to satisfy multiple technological standards.

Money can move via letters of credit, but it takes time, is subject to local exchange rates, and generally is subject to bank fees.

Individual worlds may have sophisticated electronic banking, but as soon as banking runs into weeks-long lag from the limitations of jump travel, instantaneous transactions require a local bank balance.

Moving large sums of money from world to world becomes expensive, to the extent that it's better to convert wealth into a profitable cargo and ship it rather than to have it transferred via the banks.

 

[McPerth]

Aces & Eights? That is a scifi take on the old pirate buried treasure map adventure, which implies physical money. If the lost naval payoll was electronic, the 3I could have effectively just cancelled the debit cards on their end and reissued new cards, making the treasure a bunch of worthless plastic cards.

Not Aces¬Eights.

I had to dig for it: it's AZ Salvage on Sharmun, in JTAS 4 pages 12-13, where a ship with the payroll for all IN personnel in the sector was lost in a ship crash.

The exact sentences (in page 13) are: Imperial soldiers are (by old custoum) paid in cash and Cr 5000000 in soggy, but otherwise undamaged bills. So, even i ncanon cash is still there.

 

[Timerover51]

Not Aces¬Eights.

I had to dig for it: it's AZ Salvage on Sharmun, in JTAS 4 pages 12-13, where a ship with the payroll for all IN personnel in the sector was lost in a ship crash.

The exact sentences (in page 13) are: Imperial soldiers are (by old custoum) paid in cash and Cr 5000000 in soggy, but otherwise undamaged bills. So, even i ncanon cash is still there.

Having paid soldiers in cash, I keep thinking that 5,000,000 Credits does not seem near enough for all Imperial Navy personnel in a sector. Secondly, I never did understand why the Imperial Navy did not mount its own salvage operation.

Side Note: Walking around with $20,000 on you when a large portion of Anchorage and Fort Richardson knows that it is payday does tend to make one a tad suspicious of people.

 

[McPerth]

Having paid soldiers in cash, I keep thinking that 5,000,000 Credits does not seem near enough for all Imperial Navy personnel in a sector. Secondly, I never did understand why the Imperial Navy did not mount its own salvage operation.

Fully agreed (in both points), but it keeps showing cash in used in 3I in canon...

 

[Timerover51]

Fully agreed (in both points), but it keeps showing cash in used in 3I in canon...

Yes, McPerth, I understand your point. Given the number of lower technology level worlds just in the Spinward Marches, some form of currency is going to be needed. A Tech Level 5 world is not going to be dealing with credit cards to any great degree. I seem to remember somewhere in either the JTAS or the rules a description on how Imperial Currency was made. I will have to look for it.

There is also the problem of time lag with Jumping. I suspect that Letters of Credit are going to be used a lot, with some means of keeping them from being forged. I think that a fair number of your passengers on Free Traders are going to be financial people along to verify the Letter of Credit to the destination bank, or merchants just making sure that they actually get the profit from the sale and delivery of their cargo.

 

[kilemall]

Having paid soldiers in cash, I keep thinking that 5,000,000 Credits does not seem near enough for all Imperial Navy personnel in a sector. Secondly, I never did understand why the Imperial Navy did not mount its own salvage operation.

Side Note: Walking around with $20,000 on you when a large portion of Anchorage and Fort Richardson knows that it is payday does tend to make one a tad suspicious of people.

This is why many train RPO people were armed if cash was being shipped.

 

[vegas]

I'm curious how some of you handle monetary transactions when you don't want the transfer 'on the books'?

What's the currency? Gold? Platinum? Zuchai crystals? Bills? Pretty rocks?

The idea of whipping out the old TAS Card, and buying a few people seems counter productive where law enforcement is concerned.

There will certainly always be demand for untraceable transactions and money laundering. Hence the popularity of USD100 and Euro500 notes and blockchain currency today. In addition, our far future setting is going to have legitimate needs for non-electronic cash - this:

Individual worlds may have sophisticated electronic banking, but as soon as banking runs into weeks-long lag from the limitations of jump travel, instantaneous transactions require a local bank balance

Starships are capital sinks needing ready cash for ongoing operating expenses. You can't lose productivity for that asset waiting on cash problems in a system you are visiting. That's a nickle holding up an awful lot of dimes. Holding some operating cash is a business necessity for traders.

Moving large sums of money from world to world becomes expensive, to the extent that it's better to convert wealth into a profitable cargo and ship it rather than to have it transferred via the banks.

Hmmm, got to disagree with that. A liquid currency is cheap to move and much safer to hold than a potentially illiquid and subject to loss (from spoilege, damage, or other shrinkage) payload. Besides, the point of cash on hand is precisely to sustain operations while you wait to liquidate cargo.

Cash (or payloads) do have opportunity cost to hold. I think savy financial institutions and trade-hub polities would do well to issue zero-coupon bearer bonds. This would be a great source of ICr for the issuer and the merchant trader could have a (regionally) liquid asset that earned some interest.

@Enoki and timerover51, I think the idea of specie currency in the far future is far fetched. If the TL7 real-world fully abandoned metal-backed currency in favor of fiat currency and its advantages, its hard to see why that wouldn't continue. In fact, the learnings from TL7+ economies probably get pushed down into lower TL worlds. It's not like fiat currency is technologically challenging to implement.

 

[kilemall]

IMTU, in 'civilized space' which is just a few jumps from Earth electronic encrypted ConFed Credits rule the day.
Out in the Oort clouds, it's physical money, typically pegged at a 10:1 exchange/pricing rate Cloud:ConFed.

There IS no central currency authority, everyone makes their own money. But the trick is, it is valuated according to it's actual metal value, not some arbitrary stamped/government decreed denomination.
This is because metal is in VERY short supply in the Cloud.

As such entire coin series come and go as perhaps a particular metal rises in value and gets melted down to literally be used for manufacturing, housing, ship repair, etc., or various orgs/black research corps/illegals rise then collapse/die.

I've been thinking maybe an addendum to that, coinage in the form of cheap extruded hydrocarbon polymers grown in fusion-powered vats, similarly exchangeable for manufacturing but as replacements for both organic products such as clothing and light personal/equipment items.


The one thing that makes this work is VERY reliable materials testing equipment, and rather harsh direct fire penalties for attempting to pass counterfeit value.


This sort of currency regimen IMO won't work for most of the OTU given 1000s of years of habitation, but it certainly can for any edge of frontier setting.

 

[jawillroy]

A liquid currency is cheap to move and much safer to hold than a potentially illiquid and subject to loss (from spoilege, damage, or other shrinkage) payload. Besides, the point of cash on hand is precisely to sustain operations while you wait to liquidate cargo.

I think I expressed myself poorly: this is exactly my point. You have to be using cash, because electronic money simply won't keep up with you. If you've got a ship, you're going to have to have a lot on hand for spec, supplies, payroll and for emergencies. If you don't have a ship, either you have to be arranging letters of credit and the like - with the attendant wait time, and fees - or you're showing up at the starport with a suitcase full of credits and a neon sign flashing MUG *ME* MUG *ME*

But it's better to move the money with a *profitable* cargo. Money sitting in the hold isn't working for you. Fresh fruit? No. But raw materials going to an industrial world? Finished goods going to a market world? Why not?

 

[vegas]

But the trick is, it is valuated according to it's actual metal value, not some arbitrary stamped/government decreed denomination.
This is because metal is in VERY short supply in the Cloud.

As such entire coin series come and go as perhaps a particular metal rises in value and gets melted down to literally be used for manufacturing, housing, ship repair, etc., or various orgs/black research corps/illegals rise then collapse/die.

What you are describing is commodity money rather than specie money.

The thing is, if metal is so rare that folks routinely melt the coinage for industrial purposes, then it isn't going to be wasted as a medium of exchange and put into coinage in the first place. It is going to stay in an industrially useful form - ingots, bars, sheets, whatever - and bartered with. It will work like wheat in the ancient near east.

If no polity or financial institution is stable/trusted enough to create fiat money, then it is hard to see how there is going to be any credit (if you don't trust a bank to issue a note, then why would you trust it to pay someone else's credit?) or really any financial markets (which rely on money as a unit of account and credit for transactions that settle later). It's hard to see how to have anything other than a barter market in that kind of dystopian (from a financial perspective) setting.

 

[kilemall]

Hmm, some stray thoughts-


Spice of course was the ultimate commodity for Dune, being critical to navigation, life extension, more or less hyperanalysis by those able to use it, and cheap enough on Arrakis itself to be a feedstock for local production.
We could extend that to say various commodities back such and such currencies.


Another scifi example that comes to mind is Norstrilia, where Stroon is the ultimate commodity, and there is obviously a complex currency system based on jumps, SAD and FOE money. You can read it here, a bit from the novel-
http://indbooks.in/mirror1/?p=260758


But for the OTU, we have to consider the milieu, specifically that it's a gameplay construct and secondarily that construct needs to be internally consistent to make sense and generate scenarios for play.
So, in thinking about the CrImp and the Imperium, we have to consider that it's primarily a huge trade union that is focused largely on that function, does not get into world issues except to the extent some moron somewhere threatens that world's 'total value', trade or otherwise, and invites massive response.

As such the Imperium is going to want to make trade as easy as possible, with among other things a stable currency and settled up accounts.

So there is going to need to be a physical currency for every day dealings and as noted operating costs of ships and underhanded trade and all that.


Rare metals, heavily encrypted scrip, subatomic bonded atoms that spell out a registration number, all that.
But there is also going to be a huge pile of interstellar transactions that need to be done securely and with minimal lag.


If it is possible to write 'bad checks' or withdraw funds against insufficient funds across multiple worlds ahead of the wave front of reconciliation communication, no government or bank is going to be willing to deal with that and trade collapses, or moves with the overhead and cost of physical currency, or worse lags by x-boat and subsidized mail. Not acceptable for the Imperium's very reason for being.


So let me suggest an addendum.

Within a system, the transactions are done on deposited physical money and locally transmitted electronic credits.
It is possible for a ship to go months and just pay and be paid off of credits that are local to that planet plus ship's credits. Major corporations will typically have enough deposited locally to handle system business plus small emergency contingencies.


For interstellar transactions, drawing or paying on an account in another system, the transaction must be centrally verified to finalize.
This function occurs at clearinghouses located at the subsector capital. Conveniently the capital is typically on a primary x-boat route, and will have subsector financial/trade courts for dispute resolution.

So this will typically be between 1-4 weeks going to, then coming back with the confirmation/transfer.
This would be bank transfers, heavily encrypted transactions by TL15 computers onto 4-D matrices that are constantly changing. Another word for it is 'mail'.
A ship's mortgage payment would typically be deposited in a local system, the transaction then shipped off to the subsector capital clearinghouse where it would be permanently credited.

Subsector capitals therefore are aware of most currency matters at least as they pertain to banks and large scale dealings.
Subsector-to-subsector transactions then go by mail from one subsector capital clearinghouse to the next. Such a transfer requires physical presence and authorization at the originating subsector capital.

Physical currency minting should be a ref choice, whether centralized and shipped in on treasury ships, or locally minted likely at the subsector capital.

This way, the Imperium can manage it's currency state, and you as the referee can figure out the timing of any shenanigans by PCs or NPCs alike.

An optional thought- rather then wait on payment going through, the recipient of funds could choose to bond their transaction and cash out. The bank takes out 5-10% of the payment and bonds it, half as payment to bonding companies and half as profit for taking the risk.
Of course, the payment could fail to go through without PC fault due to NPC negligent or criminal behavior. The bonding companies could have really good lawyers and/or are more of a 'streetwise' thuggish collection nature, which could spell trouble for Our Heroes if they can't clear their name.

 

[kilemall]

What you are describing is commodity money rather than specie money.

The thing is, if metal is so rare that folks routinely melt the coinage for industrial purposes, then it isn't going to be wasted as a medium of exchange and put into coinage in the first place. It is going to stay in an industrially useful form - ingots, bars, sheets, whatever - and bartered with. It will work like wheat in the ancient near east.

If no polity or financial institution is stable/trusted enough to create fiat money, then it is hard to see how there is going to be any credit (if you don't trust a bank to issue a note, then why would you trust it to pay someone else's credit?) or really any financial markets (which rely on money as a unit of account and credit for transactions that settle later). It's hard to see how to have anything other than a barter market in that kind of dystopian (from a financial perspective) setting.

Oh yes, this is definitely TL1 barter territory.


Most people out there don't WANT records kept in any way.


The coinage is convenience of subunits for transactions, and also branding for the more public/brazen orgs. It's not constant melting down/creating, but it does happen.


No shipyards out there cranking out new craft and letting 40 year loans. Most ships are stolen and/or bought stolen with a veneer of ownership to slide past lackadaisical inspection.

 

[Enoki]

@Enoki and timerover51, I think the idea of specie currency in the far future is far fetched. If the TL7 real-world fully abandoned metal-backed currency in favor of fiat currency and its advantages, its hard to see why that wouldn't continue. In fact, the learnings from TL7+ economies probably get pushed down into lower TL worlds. It's not like fiat currency is technologically challenging to implement.

Mine isn't a specie currency per se. Instead, it's a reliable difficult or impossible to counterfeit coin that is officially issued. I pointed out the Kugerrand as the example.
My problem with a gold or metal standard would be that in the future, it would be difficult to ensure that the market remained relatively stable in terms of the amount of these metals in circulation. For example, if someone found a "gold world" where there was a very high concentration of that metal it could tank the value in the market either locally, regionally, or possibly even polity wide. That would be bad.

By introducing Organisium to the game as an extremely rare element with no other real use, I also got a chance to use it to produce the equivalent of "gold fever." Nothing like a rumor that there's a deposit on some hell world that's difficult to get to to get players motivated to go. It's the ultimate find if you asteroid mine on a small scale.

At the same time, the sliver introduces a means to carry in a compact form a considerable amount of cash that will be accepted just about anywhere. The only thing you have to do on the local world is go through a money exchange or bank to convert it to local cash. But, in the criminal / black market world they're accepted directly in many cases. This also opens the possibility that a player may try to counterfeit some for such use on the chance the other party won't know they're counterfeit.

 

[BlackBat242]

What's the currency? Gold? Platinum? Zuchai crystals? Bills? Pretty rocks?

Gold-pressed Latinum.

 

[aramis]

Having paid soldiers in cash, I keep thinking that 5,000,000 Credits does not seem near enough for all Imperial Navy personnel in a sector. Secondly, I never did understand why the Imperial Navy did not mount its own salvage operation.

Side Note: Walking around with $20,000 on you when a large portion of Anchorage and Fort Richardson knows that it is payday does tend to make one a tad suspicious of people.

given that the pay ranges from Cr300 to Cr2000 or so... and about 1/10 are officers at Cr1000-Cr2000, while Enlisted are Cr300 to Cr1000...

Let's assume the average officer is Cr1400 (O3), and Enlisted is a PO3 drawing Cr500, we get Cr5900 per 10... that's only 847 bodies.

Might be a weekly payroll for a subsector.