Drinax campaign and Paal and other low tech planets

[PsiTraveller]

One of my players for my Drinax campaign asked about developing planets as resource bases for the fleet to be. There will be a lot of fuel and spare parts needed. The idea is to bring higher level tech to the balkanized planets and develop industrial bases to supply the fleet.
This is a longer term activity granted, but the resources available in some of the lower tech systems are quite tempting.

Has anyone else had players ask about developing lower tech areas?

And another question: In a low tech system that has an asteroid field. What is to prevent miners from jumping in with ships and extracting ore or crystals from the system? The local government cannot do anything about it. Has anyone else had players with these thoughts?

 

[DickNervous]

My campaign that I am running hasn't gotten that far yet (we just started) but it sounds to me that your players are well organized and planning ahead. What they are suggesting makes sense, but shouldn't be without risks.

For example, some low-tech planet may have been ignored by raiders and pirates in the past, but as the players help the planet develop, it may become a target. So they would have to dedicate resources to keeping it safe. Or, the natives could revolt too.

As for what would prevent miners from jumping in, taking resources, and leaving.... nothing really, except for the fact that most ships only have enough fuel for a single jump and if there is no gas giant in that system they can't get back. Or the cost of fuel round trip and crew may be more than the money made on the resource unless it is a very high value one.

And then while the planet may not have a way to stop them, perhaps the noble in charge of the sub-sector might have a problem with people doing that.

 

[Murphy]

It's the Trojan Reach. There are no nobles in charge of any subsectors here.

Nothing really stops players from mining an asteroid belt in a low-tech system. They are probably overestimating the profits, though. It takes a lot of effort to find any resources to mine, and then extracting them is an expensive undertaking too.

There's a reason individuals usually only prospect but leave the mining to corporations -- only large-scale mining operations have the potential to pay off, and those require full-time management -- and would also attract attention in the lawless Reach, forcing you to devote extra resources to protection. If you don't, then your crews are taken by slavers and your proceeds looted by pirates.

Not worth the expenses unless the asteroid belt is a motherlode, but then it's probably already being exploited legally or semi-legally by an outside organization.

 

[Dagrill]

One of my players for my Drinax campaign asked about developing planets as resource bases for the fleet to be. There will be a lot of fuel and spare parts needed. The idea is to bring higher level tech to the balkanized planets and develop industrial bases to supply the fleet.
This is a longer term activity granted, but the resources available in some of the lower tech systems are quite tempting.
Has anyone else had players ask about developing lower tech areas?
And another question: In a low tech system that has an asteroid field. What is to prevent miners from jumping in with ships and extracting ore or crystals from the system? The local government cannot do anything about it. Has anyone else had players with these thoughts?

Hi,

Don't forget that Governments can purchase higher tech items for their military, so Clarke and Torpol are not as vulnerable to raids as Pirates suggests, OK Torpol is Balkanised but you are not going to demilitarise space
just because a rival nation could start WW3 when there are loads of Ihatei within J3.

My recent campaign was set in an expanding Imperium with the players working as Agents for the Baron of Palindrome, (IMTU there is an Archduke of Deneb (not Norris) who wants to expand his holdings), so they were colonising and developing the system and forging and maintaining trade links.

However, some worlds like Noricum are clearly incapable of defending themselves or any system assets.

Kind Regards

David

 

[rancke]

Don't forget that Governments can purchase higher tech items for their military, so Clarke and Torpol are not as vulnerable to raids as Pirates suggests, OK Torpol is Balkanised but you are not going to demilitarise space just because a rival nation could start WW3 when there are loads of Ihatei within J3.

I've always been convinced that the band of non-aligned worlds that lie between the Hierate and the Imperium in Trojan Reach owe their independence to the Imperium having drawn a line back in 610 (date of establishment of District 267 and District 268 (and according to me several other districts that have since turned into Egyrn, Pax Rulin, Gazulin, Sindal, and Tobia)) and kept Aslan ihatei out of the Buffer Zone ever since.

I admit that this has proven contra-canonical after this Pirates of Drinax campaign has come out. All I can say is that IMO any history that doesn't have someone keeping the ihatei at bay -- someone a good deal more powerful than Drinax and its neighbors -- would have had the Hierate border contiguous with the Imperial border centuries ago.


Hans

 

[Dagrill]

I've always been convinced that the band of non-aligned worlds that lie between the Hierate and the Imperium in Trojan Reach owe their independence to the Imperium having drawn a line back in 610 (date of establishment of District 267 and District 268 (and according to me several other districts that have since turned into Egyrn, Pax Rulin, Gazulin, Sindal, and Tobia)) and kept Aslan ihatei out of the Buffer Zone ever since.

I admit that this has proven contra-canonical after this Pirates of Drinax campaign has come out. All I can say is that IMO any history that doesn't have someone keeping the ihatei at bay -- someone a good deal more powerful than Drinax and its neighbors -- would have had the Hierate border contiguous with the Imperial border centuries ago.
Hans

Hi Hans,

I tend to agree with you, I don't see Ihatei as the big threat they are portrayed in canon anyway. A starship is an expensive asset to give to a bunch of teenage tearaway's in the vague hope they might expand the clan's holdings. It makes sense to consider the unaligned worlds as client states.

I tend to assume the bulk of the Aslan military might in the sector is tied up fighting the Floriani, with the Tlaiowaha and it's allies more interested in trade than expansion. The more belligerent clans like the Tykhisto don't have the assets in the sector to expand.

Kind Regards

David

 

[rancke]

Hi Hans,

I tend to agree with you, I don't see Ihatei as the big threat they are portrayed in canon anyway.

Not enough of a threat to buck any world with a decent population and a decent gross income, let alone the Imperium or the Floriani. no. But they are a threat to lesser worlds. The ihatei fleet described in AR1 consisted of ten armed 50,000T ships carrying 20,000. The typical ihatei squadron (of which a fleet could have several) described in MT was two 10,000T transports, two 10,000T warships, and two scout ships. I haven't studied the Pirate of Drinax numbers closely, but I suppose that if one PC-sized ship can make a difference, half a dozen 10,000T warships or ten 50,000T armed ships could make themselves at home on quite a number of them, right? Unless they're protected from such interference somehow. And just how many ihatei fleets have there been nosing through the neighborhood the last five centuries?

A starship is an expensive asset to give to a bunch of teenage tearaway's in the vague hope they might expand the clan's holdings.

I see it as a move to relieve domestic tensions. Two thirds of the male population may be doomed to a life of landless existence, but their sons may have a shot at getting on an ihatei expedition some day.


Hans

 

[Dagrill]

Not enough of a threat to buck any world with a decent population and a decent gross income, let alone the Imperium or the Floriani. no. But they are a threat to lesser worlds. The ihatei fleet described in AR1 consisted of ten armed 50,000T ships carrying 20,000. The typical ihatei squadron (of which a fleet could have several) described in MT was two 10,000T transports, two 10,000T warships, and two scout ships. I haven't studied the Pirate of Drinax numbers closely, but I suppose that if one PC-sized ship can make a difference, half a dozen 10,000T warships or ten 50,000T armed ships could make themselves at home on quite a number of them, right? Unless they're protected from such interference somehow. And just how many ihatei fleets have there been nosing through the neighborhood the last five centuries?

I see it as a move to relieve domestic tensions. Two thirds of the male population may be doomed to a life of landless existence, but their sons may have a shot at getting on an ihatei expedition some day.

Hans

I do not see that sized 'fleet' making an impact on any world of pop 6+, TL7+
(given a TL7 world could have higher tech space defence force a the cost of importing spares). I appreciate this leaves several targets.

That's also a lot of effort to move on 20,000 males, which is a tiny fraction of just one worlds population.

Kind Regards

David

 

[rancke]

I do not see that sized 'fleet' making an impact on any world of pop 6+, TL7+

Perhaps not one, but how many are there going to be? And don't forget the alternate expansion methods Aslans are said to make use of. Armed landgrab is not the preferred method.

Let's not forget that whatever the methods, they've worked elsewhere. Perhaps not in a year or a decade, but at least over the centuries. Why not in the Trojan Reach? My answer: the subsectors in the buffer zone are declared Imperial districts, putting the worlds there under Imperial protection.

And what sort of impact can a PC-sized ship have on worlds that an ihatei fleet doesn't have any chance against?

(given a TL7 world could have higher tech space defence force a the cost of importing spares).

The important factor is the GWP of the world. The point where a world can stop paying for imports and manufacture military assets itself is an important breakpoint, but given the money imports are a usable alternative.

I appreciate this leaves several targets.

Exactly. Targets that have mysteriously not been targeted.

That's also a lot of effort to move on 20,000 males, which is a tiny fraction of just one world's population.

Persumably the number includes some females. Perhaps not three for every male, but enough to make them into a viable colony expedition. After all, what's the point of gaining land if you can't get wives and sons to match your new status?

But, yes, exporting ihatei is not about relieving actual population pressures. It's about relieving social pressures.


Hans

 

[Putraack]

The ihatei fleet that forms up before Book 3 is listed as 300+ ships, size unknown. My group went for a solution of "Mad, Mad, Mad World" meets Pearl Harbor-- they convinced all the other pirates in the area that the ihatei were hiding the Sindalian treasury, and led them in a pre-emptive assault.

I wild-assed-guessed at some ship numbers and sizes, and winged it from there.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

It only takes one decent-sized capital ship, in the absence of effective anti-ship defenses, to pound any planet into submission with ortillery (ship-to-ground weaponry). At least, that was the byline in High Guard and has been a variation of that ever since.

The Aslan don't need big fleets to take ground. They just need to be patient and methodical. They already like hunting down stragglers, which is pretty much what any rebellion is at core.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Dagrill]

It only takes one decent-sized capital ship, in the absence of effective anti-ship defenses, to pound any planet into submission with ortillery (ship-to-ground weaponry). At least, that was the byline in High Guard and has been a variation of that ever since.

The Aslan don't need big fleets to take ground. They just need to be patient and methodical. They already like hunting down stragglers, which is pretty much what any rebellion is at core.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Hi,

but why wouldn't the anti-ship defences be there? A TL6 world like Paal can produce it's own Nuclear missiles and is only a J2 from Tech-World and it's TLE weaponry...

Regards

David

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Hi,

but why wouldn't the anti-ship defences be there? A TL6 world like Paal can produce it's own Nuclear missiles and is only a J2 from Tech-World and it's TLE weaponry...

Regards

David

Good point. However, I'd think that a TL-6 nuclear anti-shipping missile would be rather easily shot down by TL-10+ anti-missile defenses.

Plus, TL-14 (E) weaponry would be really expensive in exchange with a TL-6 world... Probably prohibitively high in cost. Not every farm world can afford high-tech equipment...

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[rancke]

Good point. However, I'd think that a TL-6 nuclear anti-shipping missile would be rather easily shot down by TL-10+ anti-missile defenses.

Plus, TL-14 (E) weaponry would be really expensive in exchange with a TL-6 world... Probably prohibitively high in cost. Not every farm world can afford high-tech equipment...

I confess that I haven't gone over the world descriptions in Pirates of Drinax, but I have gathered that the campaign involves the PCs working their way up from controlling a single, pretty small, warship. And what I'm suggesting is that any of these worlds that are sufficiently poorly defended for the PCs to be able to make a difference would also be vulnerable to these canonical ihatei fleets. Which, in turn, lead me to the proposition that it's a little odd that, absent someone bigger and tougher defending these worlds (and for some reason stopping defending them a few months before the campaign starts), they are still around, weak and uninvaded, for the PCs to be able to affect.

Maybe a pop 6+ TL7+ world would be too tough for ihatei fleets to affect. But wouldn't that also make them too tough for the PCs to affect?

Or am I overlooking something? (Other than "Who cares about realism and self-consistency, the PCs have to be able to have an impact or the players won't have fun").


Hans

 

[maksimsmelchak]

I confess that I haven't gone over the world descriptions in Pirates of Drinax, but I have gathered that the campaign involves the PCs working their way up from controlling a single, pretty small, warship. And what I'm suggesting is that any of these worlds that are sufficiently poorly defended for the PCs to be able to make a difference would also be vulnerable to these canonical ihatei fleets. Which, in turn, lead me to the proposition that it's a little odd that, absent someone bigger and tougher defending these worlds (and for some reason stopping defending them a few months before the campaign starts), they are still around, weak and uninvaded, for the PCs to be able to affect.

Maybe a pop 6+ TL7+ world would be too tough for ihatei fleets to affect. But wouldn't that also make them too tough for the PCs to affect?

Or am I overlooking something? (Other than "Who cares about realism and self-consistency, the PCs have to be able to have an impact or the players won't have fun").
Hans

I don't know. In the end, it's all science fiction and a product of imagination.

After entering in over half a dozens sectors worth of planets, I've gotten the impression that standing armies (...and navies) in the Traveller universe are as prohibitively expensive in that world as in ours. Only the major powers (...and thus, major races) can really afford to have serious standing armies. Many of the planets in the feudal confederation of the Third Imperium simply don't have the resources, organization or wherewithal to put together more than a token system defense force.

Outside of the Third Imperium, there are mostly banana republics and petty states (...mostly NaHu) that would have serious trouble resisting a serious military incursion. I'm in Crucis Margin right now and it doesn't seem able to resist any serious push by the genocidal K'kree. Lords of Thunder and all that.

Lots of openings for adventurers in that environment...

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

And what I'm suggesting is that any of these worlds that are sufficiently poorly defended for the PCs to be able to make a difference would also be vulnerable to these canonical ihatei fleets.
Hans

By the way, I think your proposition makes perfect sense. If the adventurers could affect the local calculus, why couldn't any decent-sized Ihatei fleet? Sounds reasonable.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[mike wightman]

The terms of the treaty between the Heirate and the Imperium probably dictate a buffer zone - we don't know the exact terms so this is conjecture.

 

[rancke]

The terms of the treaty between the Heirate and the Imperium probably dictate a buffer zone - we don't know the exact terms so this is conjecture.

ISTR a mention somewhere in MT about the Aslans having kept away from Imperial Transrift worlds out of courtesy to the clans that was part of the treaty¹, even though the treaty didn't mention that region.

¹ Yeah, right. It's purely their personal honor that keeps the ihatei from messing with the Domain of Deneb. The fact that the Domain forces would beat them like a big bass drum has got nothing to do with the case, of course.​

Hans

 

[Putraack]

I confess that I haven't gone over the world descriptions in Pirates of Drinax, but I have gathered that the campaign involves the PCs working their way up from controlling a single, pretty small, warship. And what I'm suggesting is that any of these worlds that are sufficiently poorly defended for the PCs to be able to make a difference would also be vulnerable to these canonical ihatei fleets. Which, in turn, lead me to the proposition that it's a little odd that, absent someone bigger and tougher defending these worlds (and for some reason stopping defending them a few months before the campaign starts), they are still around, weak and uninvaded, for the PCs to be able to affect.

Maybe a pop 6+ TL7+ world would be too tough for ihatei fleets to affect. But wouldn't that also make them too tough for the PCs to affect?

Or am I overlooking something? (Other than "Who cares about realism and self-consistency, the PCs have to be able to have an impact or the players won't have fun").


Hans

It's kind of buried in the setup for the campaign, but an underlying principle of the King's plan is that the PCs could unite the nearby worlds by using their one, snazzy high-tech, ship to create a fleet that repels pirates/raiders and creates safe shipping lanes. Thus, diplomacy rather than terror to bring in allies. IMO, a missed opportunity, that there is little information about the
potential enemies (other pirates, esp. the Oghman raiders) that a referee can use.

 

[Dagrill]

Plus, TL-14 (E) weaponry would be really expensive in exchange with a TL-6 world... Probably prohibitively high in cost. Not every farm world can afford high-tech equipment...

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Excellent point, I use Striker (with some modifications) for GWP and I've taken to only allocating 10 to 20% of the military budget for space defence, rather than 60%, as this permits decent armies, as well as a small SD force, but the assumption is you can trade for what you want and many of these worlds have type B starports.

Kind Regards

David