Dumdum rounds?
- Thread starter stofsk
- Start date
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Interesting question. One better answered by others I expect but for my take, all standard rounds in the game are hollow point rounds to limit richochet and overpenetration. This is in keeping with the general practice for civilian rounds and police ammunition. Both cases no one wants the round going where it's not intended and for the target to be put down fast.
Hollow points would model dumdums pretty well I think, though "field" made dumdums would be a bad idea. Less range and accuracy and prone to fouling the barrel or jamming I think. And not of much use if you already have hollow points. If you have only AP rounds and you are going to be in a situation where overpenetration is a concern you might risk it.
The military and paramilitary have access to special rounds. HE, AP, and HEAP for better penetration of armor and cover.
Anyway that might kick the discussion off
Hollow points would model dumdums pretty well I think, though "field" made dumdums would be a bad idea. Less range and accuracy and prone to fouling the barrel or jamming I think. And not of much use if you already have hollow points. If you have only AP rounds and you are going to be in a situation where overpenetration is a concern you might risk it.
The military and paramilitary have access to special rounds. HE, AP, and HEAP for better penetration of armor and cover.
Anyway that might kick the discussion off
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I don't think explosive rounds (HE i thought in the game) are quite the same thing though.
Dumdums (aka hollow point and cross point) are designed (or altered) to cause the bullet to fragment and/or expand upon hitting, imparting more of the energy in the target. They are less likely to pass through a target or richochet.
I guess HE might be the same (in effect) but I see them as military issue full metal jacket rounds with a detonating bullet. Like a small rpg. Maybe I'm wrong on this.
Dumdums (aka hollow point and cross point) are designed (or altered) to cause the bullet to fragment and/or expand upon hitting, imparting more of the energy in the target. They are less likely to pass through a target or richochet.
I guess HE might be the same (in effect) but I see them as military issue full metal jacket rounds with a detonating bullet. Like a small rpg. Maybe I'm wrong on this.
Rossoneill
SOC-12
It is my understanding that Hollow pts etcetera dont have much if any armor penetration since they break up on contact .
If so i woud not say standard bullets are Hollow pts or you would never have a chance of penetrating any type of T20 armor .
In a Universe where cloth Ar 6 is so available i would not use Hollow pts ,Ditto for even a regular vacc suit with its AR of 2 or so .
To give it a chance in combat all my Regular T20 bullets are just Regular bullets .
Of course this is just my opinion YMMV
If so i woud not say standard bullets are Hollow pts or you would never have a chance of penetrating any type of T20 armor .
In a Universe where cloth Ar 6 is so available i would not use Hollow pts ,Ditto for even a regular vacc suit with its AR of 2 or so .
To give it a chance in combat all my Regular T20 bullets are just Regular bullets .
Of course this is just my opinion YMMV
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Border Reiver
SOC-14 1K
In general terms hollow points and their ilk are banned by convention for military use because of the excessive damage caused by them. On the other hand in law enforcement they are almost standard due their non-penetrating nature, the idea being that they will not go straight through the perp and injure innocent by-standers behind. British Transport Police voiced concerns over the 9mm ball ammunition they were using with their MP5's at UK airports in the 80's but although they considered .40 S&W weapons the problem was never resolved as far as I know.
Historical aside, I believe the term dumdum comes from the name of a British Military Arsenal in India where the round was first developed. does anyone know otherwise.
Historical aside, I believe the term dumdum comes from the name of a British Military Arsenal in India where the round was first developed. does anyone know otherwise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dum_dum
Speaking of wikipedia I told my players that if they could find it in wikipedia they could find it in their ships library. Handy, since they are marooned on a post holocaust planet currently.
Speaking of wikipedia I told my players that if they could find it in wikipedia they could find it in their ships library. Handy, since they are marooned on a post holocaust planet currently.
Border Reiver
SOC-14 1K
Interesting to note that a military user of dum dums could be considered an unlawful combatant. Not a term I was familiar with until Afghanistan. In another time my former colleagues and I would refer to anyone caught using them as"dead meat" because there was no way they were going to be considered POW's. This would also apply to saw edged bayonets and anyone caught using anti armour weaponry against exposed infantry (including .50 cal). This was apparantly "traditional British fairplay"
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Actually the use of a .50 cal against personnell is not prohibited in the Geneva Conventions. That is one of the more common misconceptions.
Dum Dums are pretty much a poor mans hollow point. that is their essential effect. They are supposed to expand better than ball ammo. The concept is that they will expand faster and therefore transfer more energy to the target. In effect they are not very effecient at that. A typical hollow point is a better way to do the same thing. Newer types of hollow points are even more interesting. The Glazer Safety Slugs (original version are almost universally banned) These were designed to be a better hollow point. The original was number 4 shot suspended in liquid teflon. Pretty much guaranteed to penetrate body armor then stop in the body. But in essense they are more efficeint hollow points.
The original description of the Gauss Rifle had the round as a hollow point. So I would agree that most standard ammo is either hollow point or military ball. I am leaning more towards hollow point, simply because more modern hollow point has similar armor piercing capability to ball ammo and some if it, ie the glazer, is actually better at it.
Dum Dums are pretty much a poor mans hollow point. that is their essential effect. They are supposed to expand better than ball ammo. The concept is that they will expand faster and therefore transfer more energy to the target. In effect they are not very effecient at that. A typical hollow point is a better way to do the same thing. Newer types of hollow points are even more interesting. The Glazer Safety Slugs (original version are almost universally banned) These were designed to be a better hollow point. The original was number 4 shot suspended in liquid teflon. Pretty much guaranteed to penetrate body armor then stop in the body. But in essense they are more efficeint hollow points.
The original description of the Gauss Rifle had the round as a hollow point. So I would agree that most standard ammo is either hollow point or military ball. I am leaning more towards hollow point, simply because more modern hollow point has similar armor piercing capability to ball ammo and some if it, ie the glazer, is actually better at it.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
No that is a frangible round. Breaks up on impact and won't penetrate much of anything. It was designed specifically for aircraft in flight applications. It won't penetrate body armor but is likely to knock you on your butt. Because it doesn't penetrate all the energy is expended on the surface of the target, so even with body armor it is likely to knock down your target and/or knock the wind out of it. Something Hollywood always seems to miss about getting hit when wearing a bulletproof vest or other bodyarmor. (That also means it won't penetrate a seat if a terrorist is hiding behind one.)
The Glaser was designed to combat the increased use of body armor without overpenetration. (Ie. blowing right through your target causing limited damage and hitting someone or someting behind your target.)I am not sure that it would penetrate Aircraft skin but I would think, since it is number 4 shot, that it would fairly easily put a good hole in an aircraft. It isn't designed with the same parameters. Glasers were designed to penetrate the body armor then stop in the body. Delivering maximum energy to the target. (Effectively a 9mm Glaser hits harder than a .44mag hollow point.)
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
The Glaser in Sigg's link above is without the teflon. but shows a cutaway crosssection. It is a steel tipped bullet. So the current application of the glaser will definitely penetrate the skin of an aircraft and light bodyarmor. (Though it doesn't penetrate the bodyarmor the way the original with the teflon, did.)
