Electronic Warfare
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The sensor rules in T20 are good IMHO, once you decypher them 
.
As far as EW goes look at p 97, ignore table page 98, p144-146 but change base DC to 10 IMHO to match the skill description earlier and to give you a chance to use passive sensors, remember sensors have range band effects like weapons(table p154), rules for sensor jamming p162, and finally the ECM computer program p230. There's also the possibility of using the vehicle chameleon armour option, p236, to represent EMM at TL13+.
Sensor drones and decoys could be built as smallcraft either remote controlled (or robotic?) or else a variation of the humble missile as suggested in CT. As for rules...
Someone really should do a starship combat Traveller's Aide, IMHO
.As far as EW goes look at p 97, ignore table page 98, p144-146 but change base DC to 10 IMHO to match the skill description earlier and to give you a chance to use passive sensors, remember sensors have range band effects like weapons(table p154), rules for sensor jamming p162, and finally the ECM computer program p230. There's also the possibility of using the vehicle chameleon armour option, p236, to represent EMM at TL13+.
Sensor drones and decoys could be built as smallcraft either remote controlled (or robotic?) or else a variation of the humble missile as suggested in CT. As for rules...
Someone really should do a starship combat Traveller's Aide, IMHO
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Ho Richard,
All I've seen is on pg. 162, Comms Jamming and Sensor Jamming.
I posed the question to Hunter some time back here on CotI and he clarified that the installed Comms or Sensor model could be used for either but not both in any turn, though he agreed (iirc) that my idea of installing a dedicated module (i.e. double the cost multiplier and size for the Comms and/or Sensor) would allow simultaneous use and jamming, with enough crew of course.
All I've seen is on pg. 162, Comms Jamming and Sensor Jamming.
I posed the question to Hunter some time back here on CotI and he clarified that the installed Comms or Sensor model could be used for either but not both in any turn, though he agreed (iirc) that my idea of installing a dedicated module (i.e. double the cost multiplier and size for the Comms and/or Sensor) would allow simultaneous use and jamming, with enough crew of course.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Ah, Sigg types faster than I do
And it's all good and more complete than I typed.
I quite agree with the choice of DC 10 but the official errata says ignore the text and use the DC 20 in the table. I'm still trying to figure out all the rules to know which way to lean for sure. And yes I've been begging (along with others) for a good starship combat (and other) example for some time (and threatening to do it myself, but I'm not sure about the interpretaion of some of the rules and some of my questions are still to be answered).
And it's all good and more complete than I typed.
I quite agree with the choice of DC 10 but the official errata says ignore the text and use the DC 20 in the table. I'm still trying to figure out all the rules to know which way to lean for sure. And yes I've been begging (along with others) for a good starship combat (and other) example for some time (and threatening to do it myself, but I'm not sure about the interpretaion of some of the rules and some of my questions are still to be answered).
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
That DC 20 really bugs me. It makes it practically impossible to use passive sensors to detect a ship let alone one silent running.
For that matter, unless you add the sensor model number to your skill roll, you can't detect a silent running ship with active sensors.
I therefore suggest trying the following, YMMV:
base DC to detect a ship = DC10
using passive sensors to detect a ship = DC20
to actively scan for a silent running ship = DC25
to passively scan for a silent running ship= DC35
to actively scan for stationary SR ship= DC30
to passively scan for stationary SR ship= DC40
add 2 or 4 (TL13 or 14+) to the DC above if target is fitted with "chameleon" or EMM armour
add 2 to the DC above if the target is running an ECM program
roll d20 + T/sensors skill+ sensor model number +/- tardet size mod(p144) - range penalty(if applicable)
Give it a try.
For that matter, unless you add the sensor model number to your skill roll, you can't detect a silent running ship with active sensors.
I therefore suggest trying the following, YMMV:
base DC to detect a ship = DC10
using passive sensors to detect a ship = DC20
to actively scan for a silent running ship = DC25
to passively scan for a silent running ship= DC35
to actively scan for stationary SR ship= DC30
to passively scan for stationary SR ship= DC40
add 2 or 4 (TL13 or 14+) to the DC above if target is fitted with "chameleon" or EMM armour
add 2 to the DC above if the target is running an ECM program
roll d20 + T/sensors skill+ sensor model number +/- tardet size mod(p144) - range penalty(if applicable)
Give it a try.
Richard Saunders
SOC-12
Hello.
Siggy i would go with the above except (theres always an except) you cant use ECM unless you go active, if you could do anything on passive you would already be doing it, So you can only employ ECM if your active this dosnt mean you on active sensors but it does mean you have power output so you cant be SR.
ECM = ELECTRONIC counter measures.
ECCM = Electronic counter counter measures, same roll as ECM just used to break through the sensor jamming.
You cant have ECCCM this would just be ECM against the ECCM.
So is everybody confused enough yet.
Bye.
Siggy i would go with the above except (theres always an except) you cant use ECM unless you go active, if you could do anything on passive you would already be doing it, So you can only employ ECM if your active this dosnt mean you on active sensors but it does mean you have power output so you cant be SR.
ECM = ELECTRONIC counter measures.
ECCM = Electronic counter counter measures, same roll as ECM just used to break through the sensor jamming.
You cant have ECCCM this would just be ECM against the ECCM.
So is everybody confused enough yet.
Bye.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Hello Lionel,
I debated with myself whether to include ECM as a passive defence vs scanners. I envisage it as using your own sensor data plus the ship's computer to carefully match your ship with background emissions. Perhaps chameleon armour already does this but I wanted the extra modifiers and I've just realised I've posted them the wrong way round. You only get the ECM bonus if you have chameleon armour(which I'm assuming is like the EMM option).
Keep the coments coming though, this is definately a work in progress
I debated with myself whether to include ECM as a passive defence vs scanners. I envisage it as using your own sensor data plus the ship's computer to carefully match your ship with background emissions. Perhaps chameleon armour already does this but I wanted the extra modifiers and I've just realised I've posted them the wrong way round. You only get the ECM bonus if you have chameleon armour(which I'm assuming is like the EMM option).
Keep the coments coming though, this is definately a work in progress
Richard Saunders
SOC-12
Hello.
Siggy - I'm assumming that all ships have two sets of sensors.
1 - the standard sensors used at all times (active and passive).
2 - The weapons sensors (these are the ones that give the strange beep when someone says they have weapons lock).
You would only use ECM when they lock on to you, Flares, tin foil, ECM drones, continuously rebroadcasting there own radar signal (baring but not range).
ECCM - embeding a continuously changing time pules in the sensor pulse so you know when it was received (time to target and back) If it changes each time you sweep then the enemy cant anticipate the signal change they can only jam all signals, Thats when you launch your ECCM drone for the triangulation.
All of the above would require sensor skills to know how and when to use what system.
Has anyone else thought that when a ship goes active it paints all other ships freindly or not within range, it will paint out to double normal range for a receiving ship out side the bubble. (normal method is send sig bounces of ship and returns to sender, alternate - send signal bounces of ship and keeps going to another ship (double range).
This is why any active sensors within range will give you active sensor reads even if its not you (will not give range but will give direction and with a verygood sensor tech may give good idea of range).
Sensor tech (signal level versus direction versus original signal which you would have had to detect to be able to detect the bounced signal.
I also assumme that general active sensors broadcast but weapon sensors are beamed, short sweep times for rapid update milisecs between pulses over any range with seperate receiver (below and slightly behind).
Yes keep up the ideas we may design a workable sensor platform or even better a workable set of rules.
Bye.
Siggy - I'm assumming that all ships have two sets of sensors.
1 - the standard sensors used at all times (active and passive).
2 - The weapons sensors (these are the ones that give the strange beep when someone says they have weapons lock).
You would only use ECM when they lock on to you, Flares, tin foil, ECM drones, continuously rebroadcasting there own radar signal (baring but not range).
ECCM - embeding a continuously changing time pules in the sensor pulse so you know when it was received (time to target and back) If it changes each time you sweep then the enemy cant anticipate the signal change they can only jam all signals, Thats when you launch your ECCM drone for the triangulation.
All of the above would require sensor skills to know how and when to use what system.
Has anyone else thought that when a ship goes active it paints all other ships freindly or not within range, it will paint out to double normal range for a receiving ship out side the bubble. (normal method is send sig bounces of ship and returns to sender, alternate - send signal bounces of ship and keeps going to another ship (double range).
This is why any active sensors within range will give you active sensor reads even if its not you (will not give range but will give direction and with a verygood sensor tech may give good idea of range).
Sensor tech (signal level versus direction versus original signal which you would have had to detect to be able to detect the bounced signal.
I also assumme that general active sensors broadcast but weapon sensors are beamed, short sweep times for rapid update milisecs between pulses over any range with seperate receiver (below and slightly behind).
Yes keep up the ideas we may design a workable sensor platform or even better a workable set of rules.
Bye.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Hello Lionel,
thanks for the input
.
Brilliant Lances and Battle Rider have rules for nuclear explosions producing sensor white-out areas that are more difficult to scan through(much like area jamming). Shouldn't the explosion also "light up" ships within a certain range of the explosion?
Next problem, sensor drones and EW drones.
I'm still toying with making these remote or robotic very small craft 5-10tons but the T20 computer rules limit smallcraft to a minimum size of 10t and sensors 1, which aren't much good. You could even arm them with missile racks and sandcasters to open up more tactical options
.
This is fun
Cheers
Mike
thanks for the input
Or have it on a long, extendabale, tether.
Very good point point but only if you have your active sensors scanning a full 360. You should be able to narrow the angle(directioal radio), not as effective for spotting targets but only gives away your position along your scanning cone.
Brilliant Lances and Battle Rider have rules for nuclear explosions producing sensor white-out areas that are more difficult to scan through(much like area jamming). Shouldn't the explosion also "light up" ships within a certain range of the explosion?
Next problem, sensor drones and EW drones.
I'm still toying with making these remote or robotic very small craft 5-10tons but the T20 computer rules limit smallcraft to a minimum size of 10t and sensors 1, which aren't much good. You could even arm them with missile racks and sandcasters to open up more tactical options
This is fun
Cheers
Mike
Kevin Livingston
SOC-9
As an Electronic Warfare Specialist in the USAF, I felt the need to "chime in"
We do have a "passive" system in our inventory that launches magnesium flares and aluminum chaff as decoys for our aircraft. Yes I know that the planes can't have "silent running" in the air (they would fall out of the sky ) but my point is that one does need to have anything that sends out an "active sensor signal" as a counter measure.
We do have a "passive" system in our inventory that launches magnesium flares and aluminum chaff as decoys for our aircraft. Yes I know that the planes can't have "silent running" in the air (they would fall out of the sky
) but my point is that one does need to have anything that sends out an "active sensor signal" as a counter measure.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Thanks for that Kevin, its given me an idea, Perhaps the sand from sancasters could provide passive EW defence, much like chaff. It could add to the usefulness of the humble sandcaster.
Still need some sort of countermeasure decoy though.
Still need some sort of countermeasure decoy though.
Richard Saunders
SOC-12
Hello.
Not knowing how missiles home perhapps if you retransmitted the targeting signal the missile is sending (assumming its radar homing) will it detonate when the signal tells it its at no time delay from transmit.
If its heat seaking put the same transmitter in a package with a flare.
All you would need would be two aerials one to recieve and one to transmit, the reciever recieves the signal runs it through an amp and then retransmits it back to the missile, you would need a memory module to remomber the signal between sweeps of the missile so you can continuously transmit the signal, this should fool the missile into thinking its at zero range.
Damn i'v fergot what i was gunna say to siggy havta reread the posts and get back tu yous.
Bye.
Not knowing how missiles home perhapps if you retransmitted the targeting signal the missile is sending (assumming its radar homing) will it detonate when the signal tells it its at no time delay from transmit.
If its heat seaking put the same transmitter in a package with a flare.
All you would need would be two aerials one to recieve and one to transmit, the reciever recieves the signal runs it through an amp and then retransmits it back to the missile, you would need a memory module to remomber the signal between sweeps of the missile so you can continuously transmit the signal, this should fool the missile into thinking its at zero range.
Damn i'v fergot what i was gunna say to siggy havta reread the posts and get back tu yous.
Bye.
Richard Saunders
SOC-12
Hello.
Right why does the ECM drone need a computer (direct link it with a meson comunicator to your) Datalink anyone.
Get someone or yourself to paint your ship from multipul sides and record the return signal then when you are painted by someone else you can launch a drone sorry missile with your radar return data loaded and have it transmit the signal back (should look like two ships instead of one maybe).
Heat pattern and albedo are easy it anything over visual range.
If your worried about changed reflec of radar launch a passive missile in front of your ship and have if tell you what your radar reflection looks like then reprogram the decoys on the fly (ECM), Yes one weapon hit will kill the decoy but its so damn small 55kg -lots for size.
If you make it a 1ton missile it will have a lot of endurance and you can armour the little bugger.
Bye.
Right why does the ECM drone need a computer (direct link it with a meson comunicator to your) Datalink anyone.
Get someone or yourself to paint your ship from multipul sides and record the return signal then when you are painted by someone else you can launch a drone sorry missile with your radar return data loaded and have it transmit the signal back (should look like two ships instead of one maybe).
Heat pattern and albedo are easy it anything over visual range.
If your worried about changed reflec of radar launch a passive missile in front of your ship and have if tell you what your radar reflection looks like then reprogram the decoys on the fly (ECM), Yes one weapon hit will kill the decoy but its so damn small 55kg -lots for size.
If you make it a 1ton missile it will have a lot of endurance and you can armour the little bugger.
Bye.
Richard Saunders
SOC-12
/QUOTE]Very good point point but only if you have your active sensors scanning a full 360. You should be able to narrow the angle(directioal radio), not as effective for spotting targets but only gives away your position along your scanning cone.
--------------------------------------------
Hello.
Yes but if your not scanning 360 * 360 degress why the hell are you active in the first place, and even the best aerials we can design have some scatter (most goes directly back from the direction you send, with two or more side lobbs).
Brilliant Lances and Battle Rider have rules for nuclear explosions producing sensor white-out areas that are more difficult to scan through(much like area jamming). Shouldn't the explosion also "light up" ships within a certain range of the explosion?
-------------------------------------------
If the explosion lights up the ship there far to close for children and so are you if you can see them, if you mean radar its going to black out your radar if its pointed in that direction when the EM wave hits (note i didnt say EMP you need a magnetic field for an EMP burst).
----------------------------------------
Next problem, sensor drones and EW drones.
I'm still toying with making these remote or robotic very small craft 5-10tons but the T20 computer rules limit smallcraft to a minimum size of 10t and sensors 1, which aren't much good. You could even arm them with missile racks and sandcasters to open up more tactical options
.
---------------------------------------
See below.
This is fun
Cheers
Mike [/QB][/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------
As a small asside what about a 10ton missile with 30 standard laser missiles loaded, you launch it at the enemy and it fires the missiles USP9 missile barrage at the enemy from 90,000k away and the missiles fire at 45,000k (missile pods anyone).
They look like a fighter from radar and you dont launch enough to scare the enemy into seriously shooting at them until to late, yes this will only work once but anything will only work once.
Bye.
--------------------------------------------
Hello.
Yes but if your not scanning 360 * 360 degress why the hell are you active in the first place, and even the best aerials we can design have some scatter (most goes directly back from the direction you send, with two or more side lobbs).
Brilliant Lances and Battle Rider have rules for nuclear explosions producing sensor white-out areas that are more difficult to scan through(much like area jamming). Shouldn't the explosion also "light up" ships within a certain range of the explosion?
-------------------------------------------
If the explosion lights up the ship there far to close for children and so are you if you can see them, if you mean radar its going to black out your radar if its pointed in that direction when the EM wave hits (note i didnt say EMP you need a magnetic field for an EMP burst).
----------------------------------------
Next problem, sensor drones and EW drones.
I'm still toying with making these remote or robotic very small craft 5-10tons but the T20 computer rules limit smallcraft to a minimum size of 10t and sensors 1, which aren't much good. You could even arm them with missile racks and sandcasters to open up more tactical options
---------------------------------------
See below.
This is fun
Cheers
Mike [/QB][/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------
As a small asside what about a 10ton missile with 30 standard laser missiles loaded, you launch it at the enemy and it fires the missiles USP9 missile barrage at the enemy from 90,000k away and the missiles fire at 45,000k (missile pods anyone).
They look like a fighter from radar and you dont launch enough to scare the enemy into seriously shooting at them until to late, yes this will only work once but anything will only work once.
Bye.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Hi Lionel,
The sensor drone(if a small ship) needs a computer in T20 rules because first of all the sensors are an abstract add on to your main computer and are limited to the same model as your computer.
I like the idea of a communication link to your ship computer, and a dedicated crewman may be needeed as well, but no way would I use the meson comms in T20. Check out what they do to the cost of your computer suite .
Agree completely with the rest.
The sensor drone(if a small ship) needs a computer in T20 rules because first of all the sensors are an abstract add on to your main computer and are limited to the same model as your computer.
I like the idea of a communication link to your ship computer, and a dedicated crewman may be needeed as well, but no way would I use the meson comms in T20. Check out what they do to the cost of your computer suite
.Agree completely with the rest.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
And to continue.
I like the 10t missile bus, 30 missiles is a 1.5t magazine. At TL 13 you can include a sandcaster(could you do the same with it?) and a pulse laser or vehicle scaleheavy fusion gun for point defence. At TL 15 you could give it a hefty AR too.
Hmm, the initial engagement could end up being a battle between your RCVs and theirs, winner gains a tactical advantage(if you've got a drone left and they haven't), loser could well decide to break off.
I have always liked the ping pong ball model from T2300 for table top resolution, not so important if you have a referee, you know something is out there, you're trying for a targeting solution.
Ah, but future technology... ignore that, how about a reduced bonus to detect you either side of your sensor cone?
What I mean is a nuclear explosion produces a lot oe EM across the spectrum which radiates out into space, more energy, in fact, than your active EM sensor. As this wave of radiation spreads out it is going to be reflected off ships and should be detectable by passives. Just wonder about the range?
I like the 10t missile bus, 30 missiles is a 1.5t magazine. At TL 13 you can include a sandcaster(could you do the same with it?) and a pulse laser or vehicle scaleheavy fusion gun for point defence. At TL 15 you could give it a hefty AR too.
Hmm, the initial engagement could end up being a battle between your RCVs and theirs, winner gains a tactical advantage(if you've got a drone left and they haven't), loser could well decide to break off.
Richard Saunders
SOC-12
[/QUOTE]What I mean is a nuclear explosion produces a lot oe EM across the spectrum which radiates out into space, more energy, in fact, than your active EM sensor. As this wave of radiation spreads out it is going to be reflected off ships and should be detectable by passives. Just wonder about the range?
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Hello.
Siggy - i guess something along the lines of for every 100EP produced by the ship you get one level of active sensor emissions when it blows, ie 500 ep ship is destroyed and the explosion send out an active energy wave equivelent to a level 5 active sensor net.
Yes you could mount sandcasters in the missile but why.
If you want the defence of that many sandcasters why not use a bay for the 50 missile (insert sandcaster launcher) to give you USP9 defences for only 10 turrets, but the turetts give more flexability if you dont need the full 9USP defence.
I'm again assumming that if you have 10 turrets of sandcasters you can configue them in any way you want ie 1 USP9 caster, or 2 USP 4 casters or 10USP2 casters.
I also assume that if you want all these options running at the same time just in case you need them and dont have the time to upload each configuration as you need it you will need a shitload of computer space, the same problem is apparent for missiles and lasers and any grouped weapons fire.
Each turret or bay comes with a single fire control system but if you are going to group systems you are going to need seperate fire control systems unless you only have one link system per battery and never change it during a battle, I dont think i have not changed the firing mix during a battle.
Just think anti fighter missiles, you launch a factor 9 missile strike at the fighters with one control system (seems reasonable) but if they dont hit in one move the nasty enemy then breaks the flight up into seperate fighters your one controler then has to decide which fighter getts the lot of the missiles (as a flight they must stay close together but as single fighters that is suicide so they scatter) after the single fighter dies they reform as a slightly smaller flight and continue, wheras if you launch 10 factor 2 missile flights it dosnt realy matter what he does but it does tie up 10 gunners, 10 targetting programs.
Gotta go back tumorru.
Bye.
-------------------------------------------
Hello.
Siggy - i guess something along the lines of for every 100EP produced by the ship you get one level of active sensor emissions when it blows, ie 500 ep ship is destroyed and the explosion send out an active energy wave equivelent to a level 5 active sensor net.
Yes you could mount sandcasters in the missile but why.
If you want the defence of that many sandcasters why not use a bay for the 50 missile (insert sandcaster launcher) to give you USP9 defences for only 10 turrets, but the turetts give more flexability if you dont need the full 9USP defence.
I'm again assumming that if you have 10 turrets of sandcasters you can configue them in any way you want ie 1 USP9 caster, or 2 USP 4 casters or 10USP2 casters.
I also assume that if you want all these options running at the same time just in case you need them and dont have the time to upload each configuration as you need it you will need a shitload of computer space, the same problem is apparent for missiles and lasers and any grouped weapons fire.
Each turret or bay comes with a single fire control system but if you are going to group systems you are going to need seperate fire control systems unless you only have one link system per battery and never change it during a battle, I dont think i have not changed the firing mix during a battle.
Just think anti fighter missiles, you launch a factor 9 missile strike at the fighters with one control system (seems reasonable) but if they dont hit in one move the nasty enemy then breaks the flight up into seperate fighters your one controler then has to decide which fighter getts the lot of the missiles (as a flight they must stay close together but as single fighters that is suicide so they scatter) after the single fighter dies they reform as a slightly smaller flight and continue, wheras if you launch 10 factor 2 missile flights it dosnt realy matter what he does but it does tie up 10 gunners, 10 targetting programs.
Gotta go back tumorru.
Bye.
