Every Single Traveller Holy War

[robject]

I'm looking for the complete list of Traveller topics which are Holy Wars. Can anyone help me here?

holy war
An argument that involves certain basic tenets of faith, about which one cannot disagree without setting one of these off.

holy war
A never-ending, unchanging (and very boring for the rest of us) argument in which the opinions of combatants on both sides of the issue never budge an inch. Common holy-war topics include religion, abortion, which operating system is superior, and the optimum way to dispense toilet paper.

Certain issues are NOT holy wars, in that sharp divisions of opinion do not seem to revolve around faith. One example is Proto-Traveller. Even "High Guard versus Book 2" isn't usually a holy war. This is because a holy war requires one person to believe they are "right" and the others "wrong": in the case of HG vs B2, both sides can claim to be right, but neither can reasonably argue that the other is wrong. Thus, no holy war. Usually.

Also, personal opinions are often not holy wars, either, no matter how strongly held. In order to be a holy war, there needs to be protracted discussion, as outlined in the above definition.

Just for grins, I'm calling people who engage in holy wars Quixotes. It doesn't sound like a bad title, but I don't think it's particularly complimentary. I'm one, by the way. Quixotes generally are uncomfortable with the idea that their discussions could be considered Holy Wars, and usually are convinced that only one side can reasonably claim truth (theirs).


Setting Implications
ANNIC NOVA
Automating starships
Computers
Drop tanks
Extrality and Who Owns the Starport
Fighters
Foreven sector's status
Ihatei invasions
Information distribution speeds
Jump fuel
Jump itself
Jump masking
Jump torpedoes
Near-C rocks
Piracy
Power plant fuel
Small-ship Imperium
Ship bridges
Traffic volume in the Imperium
Virus
X-boat route

Economic Implications
Automating starships
Drop tanks
Life support costs
Naval budgets
System Defense budgets and allocation
Piracy
Small-ship Imperium
Trade system (inclues Per-parsec)
Traffic volume in the Imperium

Mechanics
"Which ruleset is best"
Tasks
UWP generation

 

[Vargas]

Automating starships
Drop tanks
Economics (*a cluster topic, to be sure)
Fighters
Foreven sector's status
Jump fuel
Jump itself
Jump torpedoes
Life support costs
Naval budgets
Near-C rocks
Per-parsec trade rules
Piracy
Power plant fuel
Small-ship Imperium
Task system
Trade system
Traffic volume in the Imperium
UWP generation system
Virus

I don't get Foreven being a Holy War topic. It's status appears to be clear in canon, even if people don't like it.

And I'd add:

Which version of Traveller is best
Time dilation and Jump

 

[rancke]

I'm looking for the complete list of Traveller topics which are Holy Wars. Can anyone help me here?

holy war
An argument that involves certain basic tenets of faith, about which one cannot disagree without setting one of these off.

holy war
A never-ending, unchanging (and very boring for the rest of us) argument in which the opinions of combatants on both sides of the issue never budge an inch. Common holy-war topics include religion, abortion, which operating system is superior, and the optimum way to dispense toilet paper.

I strongly object to the notion that this definition applies to any subject that I contribute to, the key phrase being "never budge an inch" .

Now, if it had been "seldom budge an inch" or "have budged all the inches they were going to years ago" ...

Anyway,

Automating starships

Somehow I must have missed that one.

Drop tanks
Fighters
Foreven sector's status

If you count this one as a holy war, do you also count the Flat Earth discussion as one?

Jump fuel
Jump itself
Jump torpedoes
Life support costs
Naval budgets
Near-C rocks
Per-parsec trade rules

Per-parsec freight and passenger rates, not rules.

Piracy
Small-ship Imperium

Isn't that the same kind of controversy as HG vs. Book 2?

Task system
Trade system
Traffic volume in the Imperium
UWP generation system
Virus

Off the top of my head:

Ihatei invasions.
Information distribution speeds.

Certain issues are NOT holy wars, in that sharp divisions of opinion do not seem to revolve around faith. One example is Proto-Traveller. Even "High Guard versus Book 2" isn't usually a holy war. This is because a holy war requires one person to believe they are "right" and the others "wrong": in the case of HG vs B2, both sides can claim to be right, but neither can reasonably argue that the other is wrong.

Just as with Small ship/large ship.

Thus, no holy war.

Note that several of your holy wars are on subjects where both sides claim to be right and consider the other side wrong, but only one side can reasonably make such a claim (what I tend to think of as Flat Earth controversies).



Hans

 

[robject]

I don't get Foreven being a Holy War topic. It's status appears to be clear in canon, even if people don't like it.

And I'd add:

Which version of Traveller is best
Time dilation and Jump

Canonical status doesn't stop holy wars. Many of these issues are 'canon', yet heated discussions continue on.

 

[robject]

I strongly object to the notion that this definition applies to any subject that I contribute to, the key phrase being "never budge an inch" .

A clear indicator of a Quixote if I ever seen one. Feel free to start your own topic if you need to

If you count this one as a holy war, do you also count the Flat Earth discussion as one?

If there's a Flat Earth holy war for Traveller.

Isn't [small ship/big ship] the same kind of controversy as HG vs. Book 2?

Could be. I'm thinking of HGvB2 in terms of the rules, not their implications. The implications are where the holy wars come from.

Off the top of my head:

Ihatei invasions.
Information distribution speeds.

These are good. The second also reminds me of the X-boat route, which has been a holy war topic from time to time.

Note that several of your holy wars are on subjects where both sides claim to be right and consider the other side wrong, but only one side can reasonably make such a claim.

i.e. Your Side. Another clear indicator of a Quixote.

 

[robject]

Per-parsec freight and passenger rates, not rules.

Good clarification. I've rolled it into "Trade".

re Aslan. In case anyone's wondering, I'm not going to mention comfy shoes.

 

[rancke]

If there's a Flat Earth holy war for Traveller.

No, I was referring to the real Flat Earth claims. A subject where one side is obviously and demonstrably right, yet the other side still argues about it.

Eh... you do agree that the Round Earth side has more than simple faith on its sidd, right?

i.e. Your Side. Another clear indicator of a Quixote.

So you don't feel that there are any of the subjects you mention that is the equivalent of the Flat Earth discussion? They're all perfectly balanced and the only difference between the two sides is matters of faith?

Note that in several cases 'My Side' of the argument has been "either this can be true or the other can be true, but they can't both be true at the same time; now, which is it?" and the 'Other Side' of the argument boils down to "Can too!"



Hans

 

[rancke]

I don't get Foreven being a Holy War topic. It's status appears to be clear in canon, even if people don't like it.

And yet some people argue about it .


Hans

 

[robject]

They're all perfectly balanced and the only difference between the two sides is matters of faith?

No Sir. I feel that many of them are absurd, and have obvious conclusions that must be true. As do many other people. And, I've engaged in lengthy discussions over them, which primarily resulted in making most people bored. Hence, I'm a Quixote.

 

[Vargas]

And yet some people argue about it .


Hans

I never got a holy war vibe off of it but then again I don't tend to track that subject closely.

 

[zacharythefirst]

I guess I'm out of the loop on any Ship Bridges or Ship Automation Holy Wars...


In my circles, Mechanics/Edition Wars always seemed to be the hottest fires to put out...and yet they still burn...kinda like this.

 

[Colin]

Be Careful

While a list of Traveller Holy Wars may be entertaining, even enlightening, there is a risk, too. I really don't want to see any flame-wars break out over this.

 

[coliver988]

While a list of Traveller Holy Wars may be entertaining, even enlightening, there is a risk, too. I really don't want to see any flame-wars break out over this.

but...how can we have a holy war without the fire, pitchforks and crowds of angry peasants? Oh, wait - that's a mob. sorry. carry on, then.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Well, actually, when you get the peasants involved, there tend to be pitchforks and such (cf: Peasant's War, 1524-25).

I just want to know if you can have sustainable piracy in a TU with jump torp technology used to accelerate near-C rocks (because velocity is retained thru Jump) if the jump torps can be infected by Virus?

(robject, you have "Quixotes". What do you call those people who like to stir the pot? I vote for "Cyrano"s! )

 

[BlackBat242]

Or is that "Cyranose"?

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Or is that "Cyranose"?

Hehe. (Though the other way allows for ST lovers to get into it, too.)

 

[Jame]

While a list of Traveller Holy Wars may be entertaining, even enlightening, there is a risk, too. I really don't want to see any flame-wars break out over this.

Although in ten years someone'll have a holy war about what belongs on a list of Traveller Holy Wars!

 

[Maladominus]

Although in ten years someone'll have a holy war about what belongs on a list of Traveller Holy Wars!

So would that be called the "Holy of Holies War" ?

 

[coliver988]

So would that be called the "Holy of Holies War" ?

a meta-holy war...a holy war about holy wars.

 

[coliver988]

resurrection when I was perusing JTAS #22, the 'from the editor part'. Thought it interesting as there is room for official but non-canon, sort of, according to Loren K. Wiseman. Or at least optionally official/canon...

I'd like to take the remainder of my
space here to deal with a question that
sometimes causes a good deal of confusion
among Journal readers, that is, the
distinction between "official" and
"unofficial" articles. There is considerable
difference between an official
addition to the rules (such as "Computers"
in issue #1 or the various errata
printed from time to time), a suggested
variant (such as the Special Supplements),
and rule-expansion type articles,
such as this issue's "From Port to
Jump-point." Official rules additions
replace or revise any previous rules
which may have dealt with them. Official
rules additions are rare, and will be clearly
identified as such. Everything else
published in the Journal is optional.

What this means in practice is that we
will occasionally print contradictory articles.
Often, two (or more) writers will
have equally valid ideas on some facet
of Traveller. It would be stifling to say
that one is right and all the rest are
wrong simply because of the order in
which they were presented. For example,
"Seastrike" contains material dealing
with underwater vehicular combat.
It takes a particular approach, and gives
a few suggested rules for dealing with
this facet of the universe. However,
referees need not use these rules if they
have others they feel are better. Similarly,
the fact that we have published an article
on this topic will not prevent me
from running another on a similar subject
later, especially if the subject matter is
approached in a significantly different
but no less valid manner