Fleets in the Spinward Marches anno 1105

[Pyromancer]

So, what is the situation of the Imperial Navy in the Spinward Marches anno 1105? How many fleets are there? How big are they? Where are they? Who commands them?

And how does this situation change towards the beginning of the 5th Frontier War?

 

[The Oz]

So, what is the situation of the Imperial Navy in the Spinward Marches anno 1105? How many fleets are there? How big are they? Where are they? Who commands them?

And how does this situation change towards the beginning of the 5th Frontier War?

According to the Spinward Marches Campaign, there were 7 numbered fleets in the sector at the start of the 5th Frontier War: 125th Fleet at Jewell, 193rd Fleet at Efate, 1st Fleet at Regina, 23rd Fleet in Vilis subsector, 212th fleet at Rhylanor as sector reserve, 213th in Lunion subsector, and 214th down in Glisten and District 268. The strength of each fleet is not given, nor are their commanders' names. I would imagine that this would have been the rough deployment of the Navy in 1105.

The 5th Frontier War boardgame gives the Imperial Navy a strength of two Battleship squadrons (BatRons) and six cruiser squadrons (CruRons) as regular Navy forces, divided among the fleets in Jewell, Regina, Vilis, Lanth, and Rhylanor subsectors. Added to this are 16 colonial Navy squadrons: 4 Batrons, one Assault Ship Squadron (AstRon), and 11 CruRons. Many of the colonial squadrons are only J-2 or even J-1 so they're pretty worthless since they are also forced to start spread out at their home systems.

Since most canon sources indicate that the 5th Frontier War kicked off after a long period of tension, it's possible that the forces available at the start of the 5th Frontier War are greater than the Imperial forces would have been in 1105.

OTOH, Supplement #9 tells us that one BatRon of Tigress-class battleships in assigned to 212th fleet. One squadron of Plankwell-class battleships was in the Marches as late as 1102, but was then transferred to reserves. Four BatRons of Kokirrak-class battleships are in the Marches, one each at Mora, Jewell, Regina, and Rhylanor. So this source says that at least 4 BatRons are present in the area covered by the 5th Frontier War boardgame.

 

[rancke]

According to the Spinward Marches Campaign, there were 7 numbered fleets in the sector at the start of the 5th Frontier War: 125th Fleet at Jewell, 193rd Fleet at Efate, 1st Fleet at Regina, 23rd Fleet in Vilis subsector, 212th fleet at Rhylanor as sector reserve, 213th in Lunion subsector, and 214th down in Glisten and District 268. The strength of each fleet is not given, nor are their commanders' names. I would imagine that this would have been the rough deployment of the Navy in 1105.

Not quite. Those are the seven fleets that took an active part in the 5th Frontier War. A later book, Rebellion Sourcebook, indicates that in 1116, ten of the subsectors have fleets stationed. It also implies that some reorganization took place after 5FW, so we can't know for sure if there were ten in 1105, nor what numbers they had. However, it's pretty likely that the one fleet per Imperial subsector policy was already in place long before 1105. If so, the four "missing" fleets (the fleet numbered '1' is almost certainly the 1st Provisional Fleet that shows up in the game's countermix) would be stationed in Five Sisters, Aramis, Mora and Trin. Of those, I'd say that there would certainly have been full fleets in Mora and Trin, but that they didn't get involved in the fighting. Maybe they sent some of their squadrons to the front as reinforcements, but kept other behind to guard against Zhodani raids. The ones in Aramis and Five Sisters may have been half-strength or just kept in place to defend, the one against Vargr, the othetrs against Zhodani raids. Or maybe they were severely understrength.

The 5th Frontier War boardgame gives the Imperial Navy a strength of two Battleship squadrons (BatRons) and six cruiser squadrons (CruRons) as regular Navy forces, divided among the fleets in Jewell, Regina, Vilis, Lanth, and Rhylanor subsectors. Added to this are 16 colonial Navy squadrons: 4 Batrons, one Assault Ship Squadron (AstRon), and 11 CruRons. Many of the colonial squadrons are only J-2 or even J-1 so they're pretty worthless since they are also forced to start spread out at their home systems.

The countermix in 5FW suffers from one serious flaw. The game was created at a time when the population modifier had not been introduced yet, so all forces are based on an effective population multiplier of 1. This means that only one in nine planetary force is accurate, the rest are off factors of between 2 and 9. And since subsector and regular forces are also ultimately based on population, those forces are off by a factor of up to five (probably less than that; several of the population A worlds have population multipliers of 1, which will skew the figures). And then there are the squadrons that were stationed outside the game board and never got into the fight.

Since most canon sources indicate that the 5th Frontier War kicked off after a long period of tension, it's possible that the forces available at the start of the 5th Frontier War are greater than the Imperial forces would have been in 1105.

Such as the 1st Provisional Fleet.

OTOH, Supplement #9 tells us that one BatRon of Tigress-class battleships in assigned to 212th fleet. One squadron of Plankwell-class battleships was in the Marches as late as 1102, but was then transferred to reserves. Four BatRons of Kokirrak-class battleships are in the Marches, one each at Mora, Jewell, Regina, and Rhylanor. So this source says that at least 4 BatRons are present in the area covered by the 5th Frontier War boardgame.

RbS says that the number of squadrons to a normal fleet is 8-10 (maybe 2-3 BatRons, 5-7 CruRons, and an AssaultRon or a Tanker squadron? (Note: this last bit is pure speculation)). But were/are the fleets in the Marches normal?


Hans

 

[Pyromancer]

Thanks so far!

RbS says that the number of squadrons to a normal fleet is 8-10 (maybe 2-3 BatRons, 5-7 CruRons, and an AssaultRon or a Tanker squadron? (Note: this last bit is pure speculation)).

If we break this down to ship level, what numbers are we talking about? How many battleships? How many cruisers, carriers, supply ships etc.? Rough numbers and speculations are welcome.

And what does the chain of command looks like? I imagine something like

???
|
Sector Admiral
|
Subsector Admiral
|
Colonial Fleet Admiral
|
???

But who is on top of this chain? The Emperor? Or the top noble of the Spinward Marches?

 

[The Oz]

A squadron is usually about 6-9 ships, with 8 a good median value. Some squadrons might be at half-strength or even less, but still operate as tactical units (refitted Azhanti High Lightning cruisers were organized into "CruDivs" of 2 ships each). This counts just the main ships (the ones the squadron is named for) and does not include escorts, which are present but uncounted. The 154th Battle Rider Squadron in SMC includes one battle tender, 7 battle riders, 7 P.F.Sloan fleet escorts, and 200 fighters.

As for the chain of command, it seems to run:

• Emperor Strephon - commands the Imperium.
• Grand Admiral - commands the entire Imperial Navy.
• Sector Admiral - commands all the fleets in one sector.
• Fleet Admiral - commands an entire fleet, all the ships operating together in one system.
• Commodore - commands all the ships belonging to one squadron.

But who gives the Sector Admiral orders, beside the Grand Admiral? Good question. According to canon, Duke Norris could =not= give Sector Admiral Santanocheev orders until Norris got his hands on that Imperial Warrant. So apparently the chain of command is purely military until you get to Capital/Core. But that seems awfully clumsy to me.

 

[rancke]

If we break this down to ship level, what numbers are we talking about? How many battleships? How many cruisers, carriers, supply ships etc.? Rough numbers and speculations are welcome.

The available evidence is rather vague and ambiguous and on occasion contradictory. Since you welcome speculation, I'm not going to bother to distinguish too carefully.

A standard squadron is 8 identical ships of the same class (battleships for a BatRon, cruisers for a CruRon, etc.) plus whatever auxiliary ships they need to perform their function. These are organized in four divisions of two main ships each. They may also on occasion be further organized into half-squadrons. Divisions are not broken up into single ships except in emergencies. A squadron is commanded by a commodore, rear admiral or vice admiral, depending on its composition.

But non-standard-sized squadrons are certainly possible. One example has a historical example of a rider squadron with three carriers each carrying three riders. Another ship class is said to be deployed in "oversized squadrons" of... was it 16? 6-ship and 10-ship squadrons should not be too unusual. One MT supplement shows 4-ship squadrons as its examples, but I think that can be handwaved as average squadrons after years of combat-heavy war.

And what does the chain of command looks like? I imagine something like

???
|
Sector Admiral
|
Subsector Admiral
|
Colonial Fleet Admiral
|
???

But who is on top of this chain? The Emperor? Or the top noble of the Spinward Marches?

The Emperor
  |__________________________________
  |                                  |
Admiralty (Grand admirals)           |
  |                                  |
  |                                  |
Sector Admiral  <--------------Sector duke
  |
  |
Regular Fleet Admiral
  |_____________________
  |                     |
  |               Reserve Fleet Admiral ?
  |                     |
Regular Fleet     Reserve Fleet

The sector duke exercises governmental oversight of the navy at the sector level. The subsector dukes are not mentioned on the organizational chart in RbS that this is from. So do they or don't they exercise similar oversight at the duchy level?

One problem is that the CT information does not match up with MT information. One meta-reason for that is that the subsector navies (raised and maintained at the subsector (~duchy) level) mentioned in HG as one of the three tiers (Imperial Navy, subsector navies, planetary navies) was turned into reserve fleets (part of the Imperial Navy) in MT. Literally; the character generation system did a search-and-replace of 'reserve fleet' for 'subsector navy'. Note the not-so-subtle difference between subsector navy (separate (though surely not independent) organization raised and maintained by a subsector/duchy) and reserve fleet (part of the Imperial Navy raised and maintained at the subsector level).

In the FFW boardgame, one of the counters is Norris. Even without his warrant he's still in the naval chain of command (though I can never remember if he's the most senior of the one-star admirals or the most junior of the two-stars). Later information (GT at the latest, but I think it came up in an MT bio of him) shows that he left the navy when he became duke and never got above the rank of commander while he was in it. So how much of his naval rank in FFW is a game artifice and how much does it reflect "reality"? Does subsector dukes have a naval rank ex officio? Or does Norris give orders as a Bigshot Noble that sector admirals don't take but fleet admirals do, even though strictly speaking they don't have to? Is his "orders" actually "polite suggestions"?

One things that's absolutely sure is that Norris couldn't give orders to Santanocheev and couldn't ignore Santanocheev's orders (The whole "don't go to any interdicted worlds" situation shows that).

I favor reintroducing duchy navies into the system retroactively without removing the reserve fleets again. Others disagree with me.


Hans

 

[Hemdian]

If we break this down to ship level, what numbers are we talking about? How many battleships? How many cruisers, carriers, supply ships etc.? Rough numbers and speculations are welcome.

IIRC the number of primary ships in a squadron is a bit vague but somewhere between 4 and 8. IMTU I use the defense factor of the 5FW counter to set the number of capital class ships. I have posted a general analysis and a specific fleet analysis.

 

[The Oz]

IIRC the number of primary ships in a squadron is a bit vague but somewhere between 4 and 8. IMTU I use the defense factor of the 5FW counter to set the number of capital class ships. I have posted a general analysis and a specific fleet analysis.

This is the conclusion I reached with my study of FFW counters: each defense factor is one large ship. I created a system for evaluating HG2-designed ships in FFW terms and used that as the basis for the Defense ratings.

 

[rancke]

IIRC the number of primary ships in a squadron is a bit vague but somewhere between 4 and 8. IMTU I use the defense factor of the 5FW counter to set the number of capital class ships.

Aside: Did you identify which squadron is the one with the Tigresses?

IIRC, the only two numbers we have in CT canon are 8 for Tigress Class BatRons [FS:38] and "oversized squadrons of 10 to 20" for Midu Agashaams [FS:16]. Oh, and either 1, 7, or 8, depending on what ships you count, in the 154th BatRon from SMC, but that one is hopelessly broken.

AFAIK the first mention of 4-ship squadrons is in FSotSI, an MT product. But MT also brought us Rebellion Sourcebook, the most comprehensive description of the Imperial Navy that we have (which isn't saying much, mind you), and according to RbS, each sector has about 1000 combat vessels (plus an indefinite number of auxiliaries, which includes most escorts). The strictest interpretation of that statement comes to an average of 62.5 combat vessels per numbered (regular) fleet. RbS also say that the number of squadrons in a fleet is 8-10, which gives us a minimum of 6.25 ships per squadron (for 10 squadrons fleets) and a more likely average of 7.

Another reason why I like the notion that 8-ship squadrons are the norm is that full captains (O6) are the equivalent of army colonels. That makes a major ship the equivalent of a regiment. Which makes a division the equivalent of a brigade, a half-squadron the equivalent of a division, a squadron the equivalent of an army, and a fleet the equivalent of an army corps. All very neat, I think (Though I admit that having the grand admirals (O10) who are running the entire Imperial navy from Capital be the equivalent of army generals, of which many worlds have a goodly supply, tend to ruin the symmetry quite a lot ).


Hans

 

[Hemdian]

Aside: Did you identify which squadron is the one with the Tigresses?

I think someone else did, years ago, but I've lost my notes at the moment.

AFAIK the first mention of 4-ship squadrons is in FSotSI, an MT product.

While MT is my preferred rule system (or maybe T5), I have a number of issues with FSotSI and tend to forget it exists. An interesting CT source is "The Battle Fleets of the Marches", an article in JTAS 9 by Marc Miller:

• "A squadron ... is simply the assignment of two or more ships of the same type and class to a single group."
  
• "Typically, a squadron will consist of two to six cruisers, many small escorts, and at least one ordnance carrier ..."
  
• "The ... battlerider squadron: several (2 to 8) large craft ..."

... Though there is also mention of two AHLs forming a CruDiv, and CruDiv = CruRon. IMTU I have chosen to use CruDivs as an occasional sub-unit of a CruRon, used when a CruRon is dispersed (during peacetime).

 

[rancke]

An interesting CT source is "The Battle Fleets of the Marches", an article in JTAS 9 by Marc Miller:

• "A squadron ... is simply the assignment of two or more ships of the same type and class to a single group."
  
• "Typically, a squadron will consist of two to six cruisers, many small escorts, and at least one ordnance carrier ..."
  
• "The ... battlerider squadron: several (2 to 8) large craft ..."

... Though there is also mention of two AHLs forming a CruDiv, and CruDiv = CruRon. IMTU I have chosen to use CruDivs as an occasional sub-unit of a CruRon, used when a CruRon is dispersed (during peacetime).

I stand corrected. I had forgotten about that article. and it's by Marc Miller himself, so it would be hard to dismiss it by pointing out that not all JTAS articles are canon .

So smaller squadrons are mentioned before MT. But note that some of the statements increase the confusion. For instance, the bit about CruDiv 119 also being referred to as a squadron. And I think the four to eight ships mentioned in that connection is actually the two Azhantis plus two to six auxiliaries to the division, not four to eight main ships to a full squadron.

One of the most interesting features of this article is the references to auxiliaries. Almost nothing has been written elsewhere about the number of auxiliaries compared to combat vessels, but here we see that "battle squadrons are usually reinforced with large numbers of auxiliary ships, including refuelling shuttles, troop transports, and many small escorts. In addition, large numbers of fast fleet couriers are generally taken along..." as well as other information about auxiliaries in other squadrons.

Anyway, my case may have been weakened a bit, but JTAS9 was also before the introduction of the population multiplier, so all this information applies to a false situation. And you're just not going to get the size increase that such a change in population mandates without increasing the number of ships per squadron and/or the number of squadrons per fleet.


Hans

Hans

 

[The Oz]

The 5FW countermix supports the idea of smaller squadrons, as there are BatRons that have exactly the statistics as the "reduced" side of more powerful BatRons. For example, there are 4 BatRons that have stats of:

Combat: 6/3 (full/reduced)
Bomb: 2/1
Defense: 8/4
Jump: 4
Fuel: Unstreamlined

And there are also 4 Batrons with stats of:

Combat: 3/1 (full/reduced)
Bomb: 1/0
Defense: 4/2
Jump: 4
Fuel: Unstreamlined

There are other examples.

 

[rancke]

The 5FW countermix supports the idea of smaller squadrons, as there are BatRons that have exactly the statistics as the "reduced" side of more powerful BatRons.

I don't quite see what that proves, but I did concede that the article Hemdian mentioned mentioned smaller squadrons. It still doesn't change the fact that RgS mentions more ships per squadron (on the average).


Hans

 

[Hemdian]

I don't think you ever can get a definitive answer here, for two reasons. First, the designers tended to favour a top-down rather than bottom-up approach. Second, because there were changes in perceptions and assumptions in different rule systems (some would say CT is pure, yet it didn't have the population multiplier, etc). However, if you were to build a bottom-up design system you'd probably find it would contradict canon somewhere.

As stated before, IMTU I use the 5FW counter defense factor to represent the number of capital ships and then try to pad this out with auxilaries. This works good enough for my purposes but probably wouldn't stand close scrutiny. Sometimes you have to ask yourself "why" you need an answer and then find one that best suits your purposes rather than hunt in vein for a definative truth.

 

[The Oz]

I think Hemdian has the best answer: identify "why" you need to know how many ships in a squadron and set up YTU so squadrons have as many as you need, and accept that somewhere along the way you'll conflict with canon, and deal with it. It's fun to play around with as an intellectual exercise, but it's not worth fussing about.

Heck, in the real world squadrons rarely operate at full strength (whatever it 's supposed to be) anyway. Look at the Battle of Jutland, surely the largest engagement of capital ships organized into "proper" 8-ship squadrons (on both sides). Each side had three "full-strength" squadrons (that were supposed to have 8 capital ships) present. Miracle of miracles, the British actually made it, with all three BatRons actually present at full strength. Of the Germans, however, 2 of 3 BatRons were short, with the 3rd BatRon minus one ship, and the 2nd BatRon (of the old predreadnoughts) missing two ships. Yes, I know the Germans had 16 dreadnoughts present, but the Fleet Flagship Friederich der Grosse didn't belong to any battle squadron.

And notice I'm not talking about the British 5th BatRon or the battlecruiser squadrons on either side. Their organization was even more different.

So there's nothing wrong with BatRons having different numbers of ships, no matter what their nominal strength is said to be.

 

[Garnfellow]

Ships of the Sword Worlds?

So, based on the Fifth Frontier War game we know the general composition of the the Gram and Joyeuse Fleets of the Sword Worlds: Six BatRons, seven CruRons, two AssaultRons, one TankRon.

But what kind of ship designs were the Sword Worlders using in these squadrons? They were probably TL-10 or 11, so older models. But were they based on Zhodani or Imperial design? Were they purchased outright from either of these powers? I'm not sure I could see the Sword Worlds having the resources to develop their own designs.

The general picture I have of these two fleets is a pretty rag-tag collection of miscellaneous (and often older) ship designs, grouped into squadrons based as much on system of origin as any other distinction.

My game is set in 1108, with the Fifth Frontier War in full swing. The PCs -- aboard a far trader, running from ship tracers -- have just jumped out of Imperial space and into the Dyrnwyn system, which must have been the staging ground for the Gram Fleet's invasion of the Lanth and Villis subsectors. Dyrnwyn is listed as having a military base, so I'm assuming troops destined for action at Lanth are trained and barracked here. I'm also assuming that the Gram fleet maintains a significant reinforcement element here -- probably a BatRon and maybe an assault squadron as well.

So the PCs have really gone from the frying pan and into the fire! Their ship is registered out of Lunion, though luckily their transponder is currently "malfunctioning."

So anyway, all this has made me very curious as to just what the Gram Fleet looks like.

 

[rancke]

So, based on the Fifth Frontier War game we know the general composition of the the Gram and Joyeuse Fleets of the Sword Worlds: Six BatRons, seven CruRons, two AssaultRons, one TankRon.

The Gram Fleet would be six times larger than FFW indicates. The Joyeuse Fleet would be about three times as big as indicated (Most of the Joyeuse Fleet would come from Tizon). Those missing population multipliers, you know.

But what kind of ship designs were the Sword Worlders using in these squadrons? They were probably TL-10 or 11, so older models.

Why speculate? IIRC the tech level of each squadron is printed on the counter (I can't be bothered to dig out my FFW to check, but isn't there a listing somewhere? (I tried googling for one, but struck out)).

(BTW, my personal take on Gram is that although its High Common TL is 11, its space TL is 12 and so able to build TL12 ships, just like Sacnoth. YMMV, but in any case all Sword Worlds worlds would be able to buy TL12 ships from Sacnoth.)

But were they based on Zhodani or Imperial design? Were they purchased outright from either of these powers? I'm not sure I could see the Sword Worlds having the resources to develop their own designs.

The Sword Worlds has had access to TL12 designs for their entire existence. They were settled by exiles from Terra.

"Sword World ships more closely resemble ancient Terran Confederation ships than Imperial vessels, although they also show Aslan influence in their use of curves. Streamlined ships are elegant lifting bodies, like broad leaf-shaped spearheads; unstreamlined vessels are squat and blocky, with protected bridges and sensors on booms. Many craft still use total-conversion fusion rockets (p. T:S39), those that use reactionless thrusters are still laid out in the same manner. Most craft, especially military ones, have fewer amenities than Imperial designs; in the Sword Worlds, it's not just system defense boat crews that sleep 12 to a bunkroom!" [SW:126]​

The general picture I have of these two fleets is a pretty rag-tag collection of miscellaneous (and often older) ship designs, grouped into squadrons based as much on system of origin as any other distinction.

I can't imagine why this would be the case for the Gram Fleet. The Joyeuse Fleet, being composed of ships from several fleets would be fairly heterogenous, but I doubt the'd have many mismatched ships at the squadron level.

My game is set in 1108, with the Fifth Frontier War in full swing. The PCs -- aboard a far trader, running from ship tracers -- have just jumped out of Imperial space and into the Dyrnwyn system, which must have been the staging ground for the Gram Fleet's invasion of the Lanth and Villis subsectors. Dyrnwyn is listed as having a military base, so I'm assuming troops destined for action at Lanth are trained and barracked here. I'm also assuming that the Gram fleet maintains a significant reinforcement element here -- probably a BatRon and maybe an assault squadron as well.

FYI, when we were writing GT:Sword Worlds, we asked for and got permission from TPTB to change the population of Dyrnwyn to 220 million to better fit the canonical historical role Dyrnwyn had played (also the population of Durendal to 75 million and that of Hofud to 580 million for the same reason). Sadly, Mongoose ignored that for its Spinward Marches, so you may want to ignore it too. OTOH, you're going to miss out on some very fine world writeups if you do.

So anyway, all this has made me very curious as to just what the Gram Fleet looks like.

Form the point of view of the crew of a Far Trader, I suspect the exact composition is pretty moot! :devil:


Hans

 

[Garnfellow]

FYI, when we were writing GT:Sword Worlds, we asked for and got permission from TPTB to change the population of Dyrnwyn to 220 million to better fit the canonical historical role Dyrnwyn had played

It does seems very strange to have Dyrnwyn as a non-industrial, Corporate-controlled system with a population of 20,000.

Of course, 220 million is quite a jump, though!

 

[rancke]

It does seems very strange to have Dyrnwyn as a non-industrial, Corporate-controlled system with a population of 20,000.

Of course, 220 million is quite a jump, though!

Well, the reasoning was that if we were going to change the population, we might as well do it properly. We made those three worlds capable of holding their own as soveriegn independent nations. Hofud, at one point, was the capital of one of three successor states to the Sacnoth Dominion; that is to say, it was strong enough to stave off both Sacnoth and Gram. No doubt Hofud was the smallest of the three, but it still needed to be able to field some sort of interstellar force. Dyrnwyn and Durendal had at various points in history been the capitals of small pocket empires in their own right. Of course, we could have made them worlds that used to have big populations but had been decimated, but we were already using that one with Colada and Biter. There was a limit to how many population-decimating catastrophes we felt we could get away with. Also, with Sacnoth in the Border Worlds, we felt there was a real need for worlds that weren't more than one or two orders of magnitude less powerful to counterbalance Sacnoth.


Hans

 

[Easterner9504]

Pop Mod

Hans can you recap the pop mod origin and affects.

On the surface it sounds stupid, but I've learned not to doubt you.