Fusion weapons in OTU

[McPerth]

This comes from another thread where this discussion did arise when talking about not starship rated weapons in starships:

MGT core book, page 102:

FGMP: (...) fires what amounts to a directed nuclear explosion. (...) FGMP emits 2d6 x 20 rads, which will affect everyone in the immediate vicinity.

Also in starship combat, Fusion weapons roll on the radiation table, so supporting what I quoted above.

(Note: for those of you that began your Traveller experience with MGT: in earlier Traveller rules Fusion weapons weren't described as emiting such radiation)

From Library Data, Imperial Encyclopedia (MT) page 28:

Imperial Rules of War: (…)Unlike the above rules, one prohibition is clear and firm throughout the Imperium: use or possession of nuclear weapons, if discovered, and regardless of size and type.

Yes, I know this comes from another Traveller paradigm, but IIRC that was also true in CT, and I guess it should also apply in MGT, if using OTU.

If we accept both quotes as valid, should Fusion weapons be also so restricted by Imperial Rules of War?

Of course, that would not affect the Imperial troops…

From Library Data (referee’s Introduction), Imperial Encyclopedia (MT) page 49:

Imperial Rules of War:While the Imperial Rules of War strictly forbid the use of nuclear weapons by local combatants, the Imperium does retain the right to use such weapons himself

 

[mike wightman]

FGMPs and their ilk emit considerable radiation in the T4 rules too.

Check Emperor's Arsenal for details about flash damage and secondary radiation effects of plasma and fusion weapons.

 

[McPerth]

FGMPs and their ilk emit considerable radiation in the T4 rules too.

Check Emperor's Arsenal for details about flash damage and secondary radiation effects of plasma and fusion weapons.

I'm affraid I don't have access to it. I was somewhat disapointed with T4 and only own the basic book, and just a few supplements, Emperor's arsenal is not among them.

Anyway, does it say anything about FG (and PG if they have the same radiation effects) and Imperial Rules of War?

 

[steventirey1985]

Really, I would have to say that fusion guns would be fine. Its not (in my opinion) the radiation that causes the Imperium to ban nuclear weapons, its the fact that nuclear weapons are weapons of mass destruction.

Fusion guns only mess up a small little area. Nuclear bombs and missiles mess up large areas.

 

[McPerth]

Really, I would have to say that fusion guns would be fine. Its not (in my opinion) the radiation that causes the Imperium to ban nuclear weapons, its the fact that nuclear weapons are weapons of mass destruction.

Yes, but the quote about FGMP in MGT says:fires what amounts to a directed nuclear explosion.

And about mass destruction weapons, chemical and biologic weapons are not so clearly baned as nukes are...

Fusion guns only mess up a small little area. Nuclear bombs and missiles mess up large areas.

Once again, the quote on MT says: and regardless of size and type. I guess there are FG (mostly vehicle mounted spport weapons) that may be as bit as destructive as small tac nukes.

EDIT: And to add confusion, when the MGT description of FGMP tells us radiation will affect everyone in the immediate vicinity it does not tell us what's immediate vicinity END EDIT

 

[Jame]

I would either disregard that MGT rule, or modify it to say that this is only if the weapon's containment system or collimation system are either damaged or improperly built.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Yes, but the quote about FGMP in MGT says:fires what amounts to a directed nuclear explosion.

And about mass destruction weapons, chemical and biologic weapons are not so clearly baned as nukes are...

Once again, the quote on MT says: and regardless of size and type. I guess there are FG (mostly vehicle mounted spport weapons) that may be as bit as destructive as small tac nukes.

EDIT: And to add confusion, when the MGT description of FGMP tells us radiation will affect everyone in the immediate vicinity it does not tell us what's immediate vicinity End EDIT

If this is the case all it really means is that FGMPs and Fusion turrets are for use by the Imperium only.

This allows a force multiplyer for the Imp Navy and Imp Marines against any Colonial forces.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[McPerth]

If this is the case all it really means is that FGMPs and Fusion turrets are for use by the Imperium only.

This allows a force multiplyer for the Imp Navy and Imp Marines against any Colonial forces.

Best regards,

Ewan

True, and that is the true fact (and how the Imperium would be cheating the system to keep this force multiplier for himself).

He would be using a rule that nearly everybody agrees (I guess no one wants to see a nuclear war) to keep a definite advantage over any posible side, should it decide to intervine in a war, without resorting to the weapons it just tries to avoid.

 

[McPerth]

I would either disregard that MGT rule, or modify it to say that this is only if the weapon's containment system or collimation system are either damaged or improperly built.

But in the case of FGMP, MGT hints there is no containment system, as in the quoted rule (page 102) specifies one needs a BD to avoid this radiation damage, and in the description of a G/Carrier (page 103) specifies: Advanced containment systems mean that it does not leak radiation with each shoot in the same way as the man-portable version.

 

[Jame]

But in the case of FGMP, MGT hints there is no containment system, as in the quoted rule (page 102) specifies one needs a BD to avoid this radiation damage, and in the description of a G/Carrier (page 103) specifies: Advanced containment systems mean that it does not leak radiation with each shoot in the same way as the man-portable version.

Like I said, this will entirely be a house rule. (For the official rule I'd say this is why there should be a difference between the man-portable and emplacement/vehicle weapon versions of all plasma weapons in Traveller.)

 

[GypsyComet]

It is worth noting that there is radiation, and then there is RADIATION.

The Imperial Rule is specifically to prevent long-term environmental damage, as well as the already mentioned force multiplier.

What an FGMP is doing is fusing hydrogen and spewing the released energy as a packet of *really* high end plasma that is still playing at being a miniature sun while on its way to the target. What it is NOT doing is fire-hosing plutonium at a target. No heavy elements are involved.

 

[mike wightman]

What the FGMP is doing though (probably) is using the proton-proton chain to generate a still fusing burst of plasma that is accelerated towards squishy stuff.

The problem you have is the p-p reaction generates an awful lot of gamma radiation.

Now, using magic TL14-15 Traveller tech I can see how they can use gravitic confinement and laser ignition using a nuclear damper catalyser to initiate a nuclear fusion reaction in a backpack.
What I still can't explain is how the fusing plasma continues to fuse once out of the weapon.

 

[BytePro]

Obviously, its using a finite strand, collapsing gravitic singularity stream at the heart of the beam to maintain the fusion at a distance with the side benefit of retarding the expansion of the plasma bloom and thus increasing the damage yield. Duh.

In MgT there's some hard rad side effects...

 

[mike wightman]

Why not just fire the singularity at the target to cause it to be sucked into its own black hole then?

 

[McPerth]

It is worth noting that there is radiation, and then there is RADIATION.

The Imperial Rule is specifically to prevent long-term environmental damage, as well as the already mentioned force multiplier.

What an FGMP is doing is fusing hydrogen and spewing the released energy as a packet of *really* high end plasma that is still playing at being a miniature sun while on its way to the target. What it is NOT doing is fire-hosing plutonium at a target. No heavy elements are involved.

If so, laser ignited fusion weapons whould neither be forbiden, as they don't use heavy elements either, and even so they are, according to Imperial Rules of War.

The problem you have is the p-p reaction generates an awful lot of gamma radiation.

As gamma radiation is one of the more harmful to life (at least as now we undertand it today), here there is a big problem, mostly about its use on inhabitated areas. Collateral damage would be heavy, long term (radiation does not only make immediate damage) and indiscriminate (unless all habitats are lead (or superdense) armored).

 

[BytePro]

Why not just fire the singularity at the target to cause it to be sucked into its own black hole then?

Creating a black hole in one's immediate vicinity is not generally considered a good tactical maneuver - plus, it adversely affects morale

 

[aramis]

What the FGMP is doing though (probably) is using the proton-proton chain to generate a still fusing burst of plasma that is accelerated towards squishy stuff.

The problem you have is the p-p reaction generates an awful lot of gamma radiation.

Now, using magic TL14-15 Traveller tech I can see how they can use gravitic confinement and laser ignition using a nuclear damper catalyser to initiate a nuclear fusion reaction in a backpack.
What I still can't explain is how the fusing plasma continues to fuse once out of the weapon.

It doesn't have to be still fusing after leaving the chamber.

The FGMP is still fusing when fired; the PGMP is fusion byproduct before it hits the longarm part of the weapon. Probably around 1000°C difference.

 

[GypsyComet]

The clue may be in the differences in FGMPs as TL progresses. The first examples require Battledress for recoil and radiation protection, while the later examples do not.

This suggests that the process of getting that packet to fuse is a matter of a fraction of a second, and the earlier FGMPs then eject it toward the target with a mighty kick and a lot of leakage. Usage suggests that it is still fusing as it leaves the weapon in the earlier models, but, as is the way with fusion, may no longer be quite that energetic by the time it arrives on target. Still a lot hotter than mundane plasma, though, so the damage difference is justified.

The later examples are better shielded, have better containment in general, and better handling. They still require recoil compensation, but no longer need radiation protection external to the weapon. The recoil compensation is moved internal to the weapon (plenty of power, after all), and the fusing point is fully contained. When fired, it spews that same "fresh from the sun's maw" high end plasma, but the gamma radiation that escapes with the plasma is either stopped or lensed to stay with the plasma packet. Aside from the occasional unfortunate air molecule the shot isn't irradiating everything down range, just what it hits. Since the gamma *source* remains in the weapon and isn't running full time, 99% of the residual radiation will be scatter from the target point.

What we see in the several books that document Imperial equipment is a "modern" picture of TL15 Marines with FGMP-14/15, while the Imperial Army (as seen in GT: Ground Forces) uses gauss weapons. Certainly the scenario in CT Spinward Marches Campaign makes a BIG deal of missing HE weaponry. What we don't see is the picture 400 years ago, when the FGMP-14 was top of the line. Line troop doctrine was probably a bit different then...

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

If this antirad warfare paradigm were in place, then wouldn't it also relegate meson weaponry to the sole province of Imperial forces?

So colonial forces would be stuck with particle accelerators for spinal mounts, deep meson sites would be disallowed as world defenses, and LBB4 battlefield meson accelerators would be right out... right?

 

[far-trader]

OK, this is not how I recall it:

From Library Data, Imperial Encyclopedia (MT) page 28:

Imperial Rules of War: (…)Unlike the above rules, one prohibition is clear and firm throughout the Imperium: use or possession of nuclear weapons, if discovered, and regardless of size and type.

...specifically the "regardless of size and type" note. As I recall it the prohibition was against WMDs, solely, and iirc only when used (not simple possession) against forces on a world (but fine for space warfare).

Is this a change from the original? Or was the difference some house rule change? I can't find the CT reference to check, anyone recall where it was?

I'm sure I recall some CT era adventure(s) or JTAS news briefs with locals and mercs using limited nukes without Imperial boot-stomping. And JTAS news briefs or planet backgrounds that talk of wide spread nuclear war on planets which the Imperium does frown on but suggest they don't act on simple possession (it's not something that could be hidden from the resources of the Imperium to check and monitor).

Of course one could put this all down to evolution of the game...

Nukes are fine for everyone, even simple free-traders (CT B2 missiles have to be nukes for the damage when compared to CT B5 missiles which must be something else)

Big nukes are bad except for the Imperium.

All nukes are bad except for the Imperium.

Some personal weapons that were not radiation hazards are now.

Said same personal weapons are bad except for the Imperium.