Hereditary succession

[Agemegos]

I am finding it surprisingly difficult to work out a clear idea of how senior government positions in the Third Imperium are actually filled and held, and I am drifting towards the conclusion that the issue has been left deliberately vague with the intention of allowing different GMs to run things according to individual taste in their own Traveller universes. Is that right?

The following propositions are things that I think I have managed to read between the lines of Traveller material, mostly GURPS Traveller. I'm not sure that any of then is right, though, and I'd like to have them confirmed or corrected. They are interspersed with questions.

Prop 1: The Imperium is an absolute monarchy tempered by communications problems

The Emperor can issue orders that at least in theory must be obeyed by all government officials, and can make laws, even ones that effectively change the constitution. These do not have to be confirmed by a legislature, and cannot be challenged before any judiciary. The Emperor can delegate power to local or departmental deputies without restriction, and revoke such delegations and without recourse.

Prop 2: The office of Emperor is held for life

The normal expectation is that the Emperor, once enthroned, will rule for life, though in practical terms abdications and usurpations are possible.

Prop 3: The succession to the Throne is normally hereditary

It is expected in the normal course of things that an Emperor will be succeeded by his or her eldest child/son. The Moot has the right to "review" the qualifications of the heir-apparent, but no power to do anything about it if it doesn't like them, except "to dissolve the Imperium". There is a vague statement that the eldest child/son doesn't always get the job, but no guidance as to who has the right of choice and how their choice is enforced. Since there is an heir-apparent the succession must normally be determined before the Emperor's death, and election by the Moot is ruled out. It seems most likely that succession is tanistic, i.e. that the Emperor appoints an heir-apparent while still on the Throne (from among the Imperial family), and that his/her choice of his/her oldest child/son is usual and customary but not compulsory. On considering a "review" by the Moot, or perhaps for other reasons, the Emperor can pass over his/her eldest child/son.

Prop 4: The Moot is a paper tiger

The Moot has over 11,000 members, many of whom would need months or years of notice to attend a meeting. It is dominated by proxy battles, in which some of the few members attending cast votes for political allies and dependents who don't even know what is to be discussed before assigning their proxies, and who will not know for months or years how their votes were cast. Its debates are correspondingly shams, its resolutions come with no real assurance that the peerage will actually support them. Moreover, the Moot's assent is not required to pass legislation, it's role in determining the succession to the Throne is purely advisory, and it has no executive or budget to enforce its decisions. Its one formal power, to dissolve the Imperium, would be so drastic as to be useless, if it were not an unenforceable joke.

Prop 5: There is delegation from above, but no representation from below

The "higher echelons of government" appoint nobles as representatives and administrators of the Imperium: archdukes to domains (sometimes), dukes to sub-sectors, counts and vicounts to associations or a few worlds, marquises and barons to single worlds. But worlds don't send agents, commissioners, representatives, delegates, deputies, or ambassadors to the sub-sector capital, and sub-sectors don't send anyone to the Capital (except that nobles may send proxies to their friends, allies, and patrons to vote for them in the Moot).

Prop 6: Local delegates of the Imperium normally hold office for life

When the Emperor appoints an archduke or duke, that person then rules his/her domain or subsector for life, ditto when the "higher echelons of government" appoint a count, vicount, marquis, or baron. Resignations and sackings are not unheard of, but they aren't expected either. And there is definitely no fixed retirement age, nor are the appointments for a fixed term.

Prop 7: Nobles are appointed to their posts by the "higher echelons of government"

If that meant "by the Emperor" it would say "by the Emperor". So I presume that the Emperor appoints people to fill the archduchies and duchies and perhaps lower offices in the domain and subsector surrounding the Capital, while the dukes at least normally appoint successors to counts and vicounts, and either dukes, counts, or vicounts appoint successors to marquises and barons.

Prop 8: The successors to dukes and archdukes (at least) must be appointed in advance and live near the seat of the office they will succeed to.

It would obviously be impractical if a dukedom was vacant for months or years on each succession waiting for the news of the death of the incumbent to reach the Emperor, for the news of the appointment to reach the new appointee, and for the new duke to travel to to his new capital. Each trip could take a year in some cases.

Prop 9: There is a tendency for families to be associated with particular posts in the Imperial hierarchy

This seems strange. Bizarre, even.

Prop 10: Despite the existence of a vigorous cash economy and regular tax collections, appointments to noble titles are associated with the gift of 'fiefs'

To make this even stranger, the fiefs are at least usually land. It is not explained how the Imperium comes by these large swatches of land, or in what sense they are a gift if they are permanently associated with appointive offices, and must presumably return to the Crown when the holder dies or resigns.

Prop 11: Most planets are self-governing

And it isn't clear what the Imperial barons and marquises of those worlds do.

 

[Merxiless]

Seems like this is something for Mssr. Miller to answer, as a Traveller Question.

 

[Icosahedron]

I have not paid particular attention to the systems of the OTU, as I use an ATU, but I can describe the system I use if you're looking for ideas rather than canon.

 

[Hemdian]

Prop 5: There is delegation from above, but no representation from below

I disagree that there is no representation from below. I think a noble's standing will be affected by the economic prosperity of the region he 'governs'. Therefore planetary systems and groups of planetary systems will form economic lobby groups. These nobles might not be elected but they still need support to enact various programs and edicts. And people may or may not affect planetary governments on a case by case basis (some are more democratic that others). Corporations, too, will try to curry influence in various noble courts through economic lobbying. I suspect that some of the activities that modern Western civilisation considers coruption are normal (even essential) to the running of the Imperium.

Prop 11: Most planets are self-governing

And it isn't clear what the Imperial barons and marquises of those worlds do.

IMTU they are function as a middle man between a world and the Imperium. On the one hand they act as the Imperium's ambassadore to the world, on the other hand they represent that world's interests to higher nobles.

 

[Agemegos]

I disagree that there is no representation from below. I think a noble's standing will be affected by the economic prosperity of the region he 'governs'. Therefore planetary systems and groups of planetary systems will form economic lobby groups. These nobles might not be elected but they still need support to enact various programs and edicts.

What happens when a noble fails to get support?

IMTU they are function as a middle man between a world and the Imperium. On the one hand they act as the Imperium's ambassadore to the world, on the other hand they represent that world's interests to higher nobles.

And what do they do when the interests of the domain diverge from those of the empire as a whole? Play a double part, with one face saying "Shut up and soldier" to 'their' world and the other saying "Not in my back yard!" to the duke?

 

[Agemegos]

I have not paid particular attention to the systems of the OTU, as I use an ATU, but I can describe the system I use if you're looking for ideas rather than canon.

Thank you for the offer, but for the moment I am just exploring the canon.

 

[Vargas]

Here's my take.

Prop 1: The Imperium is an absolute monarchy tempered by communications problem.

Yup.

Prop 2: The office of Emperor is held for life

Yup.

Prop 3: The succession to the Throne is normally hereditary

Yup.

Prop 4: The Moot is a paper tiger

Yup.

Prop 5: There is delegation from above, but no representation from below.

. . . But worlds don't send agents, commissioners, representatives, delegates, deputies, or ambassadors to the sub-sector capital, and sub-sectors don't send anyone to the Capital (except that nobles may send proxies to their friends, allies, and patrons to vote for them in the Moot).

On the face of it, yup. I think implicit to the Third Imperium setting is the concept that grievences, proposals and the like can be brought to nobles in authority. The Traveller Adventure gives us cynical confirmation of this when it states that the Marquis Aramis dispenses favors in return for money and support.

Prop 6: Local delegates of the Imperium normally hold office for life

Yup.

Prop 7: Nobles are appointed to their posts by the "higher echelons of government"

If that meant "by the Emperor" it would say "by the Emperor".

IMO, not necessarily. I think the fine distinction was being made that the Emperor delegates some of his authority to those nobles below him and it's those nobles who make the actual appointments. A subtle difference true . . .

Also, technically, some nobles are not appointed to their inherited positions in government but rather are confirmed to them. (Which could be considered a form of appointment I guess).

Prop 8: The successors to dukes and archdukes (at least) must be appointed in advance and live near the seat of the office they will succeed to.

Yup, there is always a clear understanding of who is next in the line of succession.

Prop 9: There is a tendency for families to be associated with particular posts in the Imperial hierarchy

This seems strange. Bizarre, even.

Why? The Imperium has a heredity ruler, why can't a subsector? It's just an extension of Imperial government at the highest level.

Prop 10: Despite the existence of a vigorous cash economy and regular tax collections, appointments to noble titles are associated with the gift of 'fiefs'

To make this even stranger, the fiefs are at least usually land.

The gift of land isn't that strange a concept as it gives the noble a vested interest in the place where the fief exists, (at least in theory).

It is not explained how the Imperium comes by these large swatches of land,

Eminent domain I assume. Or, whenever a planet comes into the Imperium, a certain amount of land is gifted to it. (My personal take is that starports, always being Imperial property, are fiefs of the local Baron).

or in what sense they are a gift if they are permanently associated with appointive offices, and must presumably return to the Crown when the holder dies or resigns.

The Emperor is under no obligation to give the land to the recipient of the title; it can be redistributed as he sees fit.

Prop 11: Most planets are self-governing

And it isn't clear what the Imperial barons and marquises of those worlds do.

They oversee the Imperium's interests. I take this to mean they are engaged in insuring and further developing the economic well being of their fief, overseeing the local bureaucracy, being the visible presence of the Imperium, shaking babies and kissing hands and the like.

 

[Hemdian]

What happens when a noble fails to get support?

In the short term they loose credability, prestege and standing, possibly even personal revenue if their own fief becomes impoverished. In the long term if they are seen as ineffectual they may even loose their hereditory title. (After all, without expansion where do new titles come from?)

And what do they do when the interests of the domain diverge from those of the empire as a whole? Play a double part, with one face saying "Shut up and soldier" to 'their' world and the other saying "Not in my back yard!" to the duke?

To begin with, sure. But the upper levels of the peerage are supposed to take notice and find a compromise. This is exactly what didn't happen during the Rebellion that led to the formation of three of the factions (Deibei, Margaret, Antares): Lucan (who was auguably the Imperium at one point) stripped some of the out-laying areas of defensive ships to help fight against Dulinor. When they were attacked by external forces they refused to send any more ships. In each case local needs outweighed the Imperial need.

 

[Agemegos]

Why? The Imperium has a heredity ruler, why can't a subsector? It's just an extension of Imperial government at the highest level.

I find Proposition 9 bizarre because it seems incompatible with Proposition 7.

I don't want anyone to take this as a criticism of their campaign or gaming, but I get cognitive dissonance when the government of the OTU is described as being both of two things that seem to me to be violently incompatible with each other. Proposition 7 says that subsectors are ruled by appointed delegates of the Emperor. Proposition 9 says that they are ruled by hereditary feudatories. It doesn't seem to me that both can be true.

Before and above all other things, people are ruled by ideas. The legitimacy of a government consists of this: the belief by the people it governs that it is legitimate. If it has that, it may be unstable but it isn't insecure--it might change internally or be conquered, but it won't be overthrown. If it lacks such legitimacy it may be stable, but it won't be secure--though it might avoid change and invasion either its authority will collapse or it will be overthrown by revolution.

I'm not going to insist that this is right, and if anyone feels differently they are of course free to run their games as they see fit. I won't even criticise, much less report them to the Gaming Police. But it seems to me that a subsector governor who is appointed to his post and holds it either for life, for a term, or at the pleasure of the Emperor gains his legitimacy from a wholly different idea than a subsector duke who inherits from his father. The subjects either believe in one idea of what makes rule legitimate or the other. Ideas can change, but not I think quickly enough to keep up with changes.

Appointive hierarchies have historically developed into feudal ones (though never vice-versa. I could believe that the TI had originally been an appointive hierarchy and then developed into a feudal one (though I note tangentially that feudalism always tends either to balkanisation or the recovery of central authority). But I can't accept that it is both at once.

The gift of land isn't that strange a concept as it gives the noble a vested interest in the place where the fief exists, (at least in theory).

You say that like giving government officials vested interests is a good thing. Besides, it isn't a gift if it goes with an appointment.

And besides. Land? In a high-tech industrial economy? The interests of landlords are remote from the performance of the general economy. It would be far better to give performance bonuses linked to gross planetary product.

They oversee the Imperium's interests. I take this to mean they are engaged in insuring and further developing the economic well being of their fief, overseeing the local bureaucracy, being the visible presence of the Imperium, shaking babies and kissing hands and the like.

I'm sorry, but I'm both blessed and cursed with literal-mindedness. "Oversee the Imperium's interests" and "engaged in insuring and further developing the economic well being of their fief, overseeing the local bureaucracy" are so inspecific that they don't actually mean anything to me. What are the local lord's powers, what are his duties, what is his budget, who enforces his authority and how?

To be concrete, suppose that we had a planet with a federal republican government identical in all essentials to that of the USA, with geography essentially the same as Earth, and extraterritorial downports in, say, na-Quito and na-Kerinci. It has an orbital highport belonging to the Empire, and there is a marquis of the place lounging about gladhanding babies and kissing voters.

The economy on this planet develops stagflation. The Congress applies a fiscal stimulus which the President approves, and the Independent Banking Authority applies a monetary stimulus (loosens credit). The Marquis, advised by his own economists, forms the opinion that the economy needs a short sharp recession to bring it out of stagflation, and that the fiscal and monetary stimuli proposed will increase inflation and public and private indebtedness, exacerbate inflation to the great harm of trade, and not restore economic activity. How, exactly, does the marquis further the economic well-being of his fief? Moral suasion won't cut the mustard: it is an election year. Can he veto the stimulus package? Sack and replace the board of the Fed?

Congress approves a huge appropriation to build a fleet of orbital monitors. The winning tender is for a design that won't fit into a standard naval battlegroup carrier, so that the monitors will not be able to be used as Imperial naval reserve battleriders. Worse, the winning tenderer is a local firm that hasn't given any shares to poor hard-working nobles, and therefore can afford narrower margins. What exactly does the marquis do to protect Imperial interests?

The state government of Porkchopia has not expanded the na-Quito Ocean Maglev in line with the increase of traffic at the na-Quito Downport. In fact, they have been scanting the maintenance. Heavy containers that ought to go by maglev and ship are being flown in, and air traffic congestion in the downport approachs is getting out of hand. What can the marquis do about it?

The Chief Bureaucrat of the [local station of the Imperial] Bureau of Triple Redundancy has become a hopeless addict of the rhumba, and has not been attending his duties with due diligence. His underlings are covering for him, and the other bureau chiefs have formed a defensive ring around their stricken colleague (whilr secretly riffling his departments for talented sycophants and budgetary knick-knacks). Can the marquis assign the dance-addled chief to a special commission of inquiry and fill his place with a diligent deputy?

 

[Hemdian]

Maybe I've got it wrong but I always thought that the noble's lands and the area he was responsible for were two separate things. So, following Agemegos' example: the planet's Marquis may personally own Texas. Thus one form of influence he has is as a major landholder and possible local campaign fund contributor.

Additionally, one of his roles is collecting tax for the Emperor from the planet as a whole (the local government being free to raise this as an income tax, sales tax, poll tax, or however else they want). This process begins with the regular renegotiation of the total planetary tax bill ... a powerful stick or carrot to weild in economic matters.

But these are all crude methods. Most of the politics will be behind closed doors ... private talks with the congressmen from 'Florida' that if they support the Marquis's position on the government's proposed economic measures he can guarentee the new General Products redi-meals factory for the subsector is located in their state (with all the new jobs that will create). Backed up by private talks with General Products Consumables Division that if they locate their planned new redi-meal factory according to the noble's wishes he can guarentee a substantial contract for redi-meals from the subsector navy. Etc.

On the issue of the planetary monitors ... if the noble really wants to block it and the local government doesn't want to avail itself of the second hand Imperial Navy ships at a heavy discount, then he can effectively kill the project with red tape (there is a reference in cannon to permits for heavy ship weapons, the monitors could be limited to turret weapons only).

On the maglev issue our hard working noble can encourage private enterprise (possibly a mix of local and offworld interests) to invest with subsidies and underwriting their business model (recouping the money by adding it on to the annual tax bill). The local government might actually prefer to make major infrastructure improvements this way.

As for the rhumba addiction ... the locals are on their own. Hey, there's only so much one Marquis can do.

However, the main area for noble involement is offworld trade and relations, tending to be hands-off when it comes to local issues.

 

[Icosahedron]

I find Proposition 9 bizarre because it seems incompatible with Proposition 7.

I don't want anyone to take this as a criticism of their campaign or gaming, but I get cognitive dissonance when the government of the OTU is described as being both of two things that seem to me to be violently incompatible with each other. Proposition 7 says that subsectors are ruled by appointed delegates of the Emperor. Proposition 9 says that they are ruled by hereditary feudatories. It doesn't seem to me that both can be true.

Just my Cr2.
Wasn't it your good self who mentioned 'Tanistic' succession?
Maybe the eldest son gets the inheritance 9 times out of 10, but officially, it is possible for an appointment to be made that is not the 'expected' result. Especially if the heir apparent has been caught drawing mustache and glasses on the Emperor's portrait - or some such...

 

[Agemegos]

Just my Cr2.
Wasn't it your good self who mentioned 'Tanistic' succession?

Tanistry is an alternative both to heredity and to appointment by an overlord, and based on yet another idea of what makes a government legitimate.

Maybe the eldest son gets the inheritance 9 times out of 10, but officially, it is possible for an appointment to be made that is not the 'expected' result. Especially if the heir apparent has been caught drawing mustache and glasses on the Emperor's portrait - or some such...

Well, I'm very happy for anyone who is content with that. And I am far from keen to make you enjoy the OTU less for agreeing with me. But to me that seems like a system that is neither stable nor secure. The interest of a strong emperor is in replacing as many members of old families as he can with competent creatures of his own authority, and an heir-presumptive to the duchy that his ancestors have ruled for five generations would not be human if he did not feel robbed when he was passed over. As for security, it seems to me that a population that believes that legitimacy comes from Imperial appointment will be tepid in their support of a below-average administrator (or one who makes tough decisions) who "only got the job 'cause he Dad had it and the Emperor got careless", while any population that accepts the legitimacy of the trend of hereditary hereditary dukes will be outraged when a popular young sprig of the legitimate dynasty is passed over on account of Imperial considerations such as inexperience, unsound principles, or having less nous than charm. I give the system two generations before it degenerates either into a bureaucratic monarchy or a feudalism gusting towards balkanisation and civil war.

 

[Thuban]

Prop 1: The Imperium is an absolute monarchy tempered by communications problems

Yes.

Prop 2: The office of Emperor is held for life

Yes.

Prop 3: The succession to the Throne is normally hereditary

Yes.

Prop 4: The Moot is a paper tiger

The Moot serves as the Emperor's ear to the murmurs of the nobility, subject to the obvious limitations imposed by comm lag. As such it serves an important constitutional function.

Prop 5: There is delegation from above, but no representation from below

Yes, at least in terms of institutional infrastructure. The nobles, particularly the dukes, must still be attentive to what Imperial citizens - subjects, really - have to say; one could argue that this is one of the main functions of the nobility below the level of the dukes.

Prop 6: Local delegates of the Imperium normally hold office for life

For the nobles, yes. In the OTU nobles below the level of duke are "associated" with a system or systems, but have little in the way of hands-on administration of their world(s) unless they hold some position of temporal power in the planetary government (i.e., "political leaders") independent of their Imperial title.

Prop 7: Nobles are appointed to their posts by the "higher echelons of government"

Nobles are appointed by the Emperor (S11, p. 34).

Prop 8: The successors to dukes and archdukes (at least) must be appointed in advance and live near the seat of the office they will succeed to.

Archduke Tranian of Gateway is said in some sources to have lived primarily on Capital, not in his domain.

Prop 9: There is a tendency for families to be associated with particular posts in the Imperial hierarchy

Most nobles don't have "posts" per se; the Imperial bureacracy handles the administrative responsibilities, not the nobility, at least until you reach the dukes.

Prop 10: Despite the existence of a vigorous cash economy and regular tax collections, appointments to noble titles are associated with the gift of 'fiefs'

An Imperial noble is expected to support himself in the proper style - the fief is a source of income.

Prop 11: Most planets are self-governing

Yes.

And the nobility exists to tie the leading citizens of those worlds to the Imperium through bonds of honor and fealty backed up by good ol' fashioned bribery.

 

[Icosahedron]

Well, I'm very happy for anyone who is content with that. And I am far from keen to make you enjoy the OTU less for agreeing with me. But to me that seems like a system that is neither stable nor secure.

You may be aware of what I'm about to say already, Agemegos, I don't know how long you've been Travelling, but I'll say it anyway.

I'm not an OTU person, but I've picked up some knowledge of it over the past three decades.

From your posts to date, I imagine you to be a person of strong convictions who likes everything to be black and white and 'just so'.

Unfortunately, Traveller and the OTU are not like that. At the end of the day it's just a game, one that was devised thirty years ago by by a group of gamers with no specialist knowledge, who one day decided to do sci fi, and it has undergone many revisions over the years, some of which have introduced contradictory canon.

If you're looking for iron-clad logic in Traveller and the OTU, you're going to be sorely disappointed. You can, of course, devise your own TU and your own government systems that are water-tight, I wish you luck in that venture and you will find a lot of help on this site in doing so, but just don't expect OTU canon to be as foolproof as you would wish it to be.

The OTU is a game environment, a compromise between realism and fun. If you lean toward the realism end of the player spectrum, you're gonna have to 'fix' a lot of things. If you are also a canon purist as well as a realist, you're gonna be one frustrated dude.

I hope you can find a path you are comfortable to tread, and I'm sure you'll find a lot of help here in doing so.

Have fun.

 

[aramis]

Prop 1: The Imperium is an absolute monarchy tempered by communications problems

The Emperor can issue orders that at least in theory must be obeyed by all government officials, and can make laws, even ones that effectively change the constitution. These do not have to be confirmed by a legislature, and cannot be challenged before any judiciary. The Emperor can delegate power to local or departmental deputies without restriction, and revoke such delegations and without recourse.

The emperor is limited by three elements:
1) the moot can "retire" him... sometimes by bullet.
2) if he's bad enough, rebellions ensue...
3) if he's really, really bad, the moot will either kill him, or dissolve the imperium.

Prop 2: The office of Emperor is held for life

The normal expectation is that the Emperor, once enthroned, will rule for life, though in practical terms abdications and usurpations are possible.

Yup. Precedents are
the right of assassination: If you can kill the emperor, take the crown, and then hold the throne, you ARE the emperor.

Abdication: an emperor can abdicate

Regency: An infirm, underage or incapacitated emperor can have a regent appointed.

Prop 3: The succession to the Throne is normally hereditary

It is expected in the normal course of things that an Emperor will be succeeded by his or her eldest child/son. The Moot has the right to "review" the qualifications of the heir-apparent, but no power to do anything about it if it doesn't like them, except "to dissolve the Imperium". There is a vague statement that the eldest child/son doesn't always get the job, but no guidance as to who has the right of choice and how their choice is enforced. Since there is an heir-apparent the succession must normally be determined before the Emperor's death, and election by the Moot is ruled out. It seems most likely that succession is tanistic, i.e. that the Emperor appoints an heir-apparent while still on the Throne (from among the Imperial family), and that his/her choice of his/her oldest child/son is usual and customary but not compulsory. On considering a "review" by the Moot, or perhaps for other reasons, the Emperor can pass over his/her eldest child/son.

As can the moot. Without the moot's consent, the designated heir is getting a few stocks, and is still not the emperor.

Prop 4: The Moot is a paper tiger

The Moot has over 11,000 members, many of whom would need months or years of notice to attend a meeting. It is dominated by proxy battles, in which some of the few members attending cast votes for political allies and dependents who don't even know what is to be discussed before assigning their proxies, and who will not know for months or years how their votes were cast. Its debates are correspondingly shams, its resolutions come with no real assurance that the peerage will actually support them. Moreover, the Moot's assent is not required to pass legislation, it's role in determining the succession to the Throne is purely advisory, and it has no executive or budget to enforce its decisions. Its one formal power, to dissolve the Imperium, would be so drastic as to be useless, if it were not an unenforceable joke.

It's hardly a paper tiger... but it's also not a senate. It's a confirmation for a new emperor... or rejection thereof. Essentially, any would-be emperor needs to

Prop 5: There is delegation from above, but no representation from below

The "higher echelons of government" appoint nobles as representatives and administrators of the Imperium: archdukes to domains (sometimes), dukes to sub-sectors, counts and vicounts to associations or a few worlds, marquises and barons to single worlds. But worlds don't send agents, commissioners, representatives, delegates, deputies, or ambassadors to the sub-sector capital, and sub-sectors don't send anyone to the Capital (except that nobles may send proxies to their friends, allies, and patrons to vote for them in the Moot).

Good old British "Virtual Representation"... you can presume a right to approach one's local Noble.

Prop 6: Local delegates of the Imperium normally hold office for life

When the Emperor appoints an archduke or duke, that person then rules his/her domain or subsector for life, ditto when the "higher echelons of government" appoint a count, vicount, marquis, or baron. Resignations and sackings are not unheard of, but they aren't expected either. And there is definitely no fixed retirement age, nor are the appointments for a fixed term.

And normally, if competent, their heir takes over...

Prop 7: Nobles are appointed to their posts by the "higher echelons of government"

If that meant "by the Emperor" it would say "by the Emperor". So I presume that the Emperor appoints people to fill the archduchies and duchies and perhaps lower offices in the domain and subsector surrounding the Capital, while the dukes at least normally appoint successors to counts and vicounts, and either dukes, counts, or vicounts appoint successors to marquises and barons.

All noble titles come from the Emperor (Supplement 8, MT IE, and several other places), except knighthoods (which can be domain level, by some references). The actual appointments, however, are probably rubberstamping requests by Archdukes and Sector Dukes.

Prop 8: The successors to dukes and archdukes (at least) must be appointed in advance and live near the seat of the office they will succeed to.

It would obviously be impractical if a dukedom was vacant for months or years on each succession waiting for the news of the death of the incumbent to reach the Emperor, for the news of the appointment to reach the new appointee, and for the new duke to travel to to his new capital. Each trip could take a year in some cases.

A clear succession is established well in advance. THey are subject to confirmation by the Emperor, both in advance AND upon taking office. See MT, specifically the issue with Norris' Dukedom.

Prop 9: There is a tendency for families to be associated with particular posts in the Imperial hierarchy

This seems strange. Bizarre, even.

This is canonical. Norris inherits being the Duke of Regina. He was the spare, not the intended heir.

Canon also includes that vilani nobles tend to pass on to the 3rd child, not the first.

Prop 10: Despite the existence of a vigorous cash economy and regular tax collections, appointments to noble titles are associated with the gift of 'fiefs'

To make this even stranger, the fiefs are at least usually land. It is not explained how the Imperium comes by these large swatches of land, or in what sense they are a gift if they are permanently associated with appointive offices, and must presumably return to the Crown when the holder dies or resigns.

There's not much proof (outside of GT) that fiefs are "usually" land.

There really isn't much describing what constitutes fiefs.

Prop 11: Most planets are self-governing

And it isn't clear what the Imperial barons and marquises of those worlds do.

Inform the locals when they are pushing the envelope.
Call the higher eschelons when locals do stupid stuff.

 

[sfchbryan]

I would say that the first thing to remember is that the Imperium isn't actually an empire. Sure, it has the trappings of one, but it isn't.

It is a private trade association with it's own armed forces & it's own fiat currency. Members of the Imperium go along with it because it is cheaper than having to do everything themselves (Economics-wise).

The Imperium cares about keeping (generally) the peace, insuring that the mail gets through and the megacorps make a profit. And that is it.

The Imperium rules the space between worlds; the Imperium doesn't care about individual worlds. That is what got that guy Dulinor going. And we see what that led to.....

There is no representation from below because the Imperium doesn't care how individual worlds are ruled. All they care about is the territory that they control i.e. the Spaceport and that they get paid. What happens beyond the extra-legality line is of no interest unless someone starts throwing nukes around; then the Imperium gets involved. Because nukes are bad for markets.

The nobility by and large are just employees of that megacorporation called the 3rd Imperium. Usually, they are co-opted from the local planetary leadership. I would guess that the fiefs are part of the "price of admission" to join the Imperium.

 

[aramis]

I would say that the first thing to remember is that the Imperium isn't actually an empire. Sure, it has the trappings of one, but it isn't.

It is a private trade association with it's own armed forces & it's own fiat currency. Members of the Imperium go along with it because it is cheaper than having to do everything themselves (Economics-wise).

Yup. Dead on.

 

[rancke]

Yup. Precedents are
the right of assassination: If you can kill the emperor, take the crown, and then hold the throne, you ARE the emperor.

The Right of Assassination was something Dulonor dug up out of 500 year old history. The very fact that he was allowed to carry a loaded gun into Strephon's presence shows that by that time the exercise of the RoA was literally unthinkable. Also, compare Dulinor's assassination to previous removals of unpopular emperors. They were all carried out with assured support either from the rest of the Moot or from a fleet in orbit.

All noble titles come from the Emperor (Supplement 8, MT IE, and several other places), except knighthoods (which can be domain level, by some references). The actual appointments, however, are probably rubberstamping requests by Archdukes and Sector Dukes.

Knighthoods and baronetcies. Neither of which gives a place in to Moot.

There's not much proof (outside of GT) that fiefs are "usually" land.

It's first mentioned in the essay about nobility in LDNZ. However, those fiefs are not "this is the source of all your power" fiefs like we know them from real feudal systems. They're "here's a bit of land to call your very own" fiefs. Note that in every case the 'fief' is much smaller than the region the noble are associated with. The only ones who get an entire world are the archdukes, and their domains encompasses a thousand systems or more.


Hans

 

[G. Fieendish]

The Right of Assassination was something Dulonor dug up out of 500 year old history. The very fact that he was allowed to carry a loaded gun into Strephon's presence shows that by that time the exercise of the RoA was literally unthinkable. Also, compare Dulinor's assassination to previous removals of unpopular emperors. They were all carried out with assured support either from the rest of the Moot or from a fleet in orbit.


Knighthoods and baronetcies. Neither of which gives a place in to Moot.


It's first mentioned in the essay about nobility in LDNZ. However, those fiefs are not "this is the source of all your power" fiefs like we know them from real feudal systems. They're "here's a bit of land to call your very own" fiefs. Note that in every case the 'fief' is much smaller than the region the noble are associated with. The only ones who get an entire world are the archdukes, and their domains encompasses a thousand systems or more.


Hans

Point 1) Needless to say, the lifespan of said "Emperor" could be very short, as the Right of Succession via assassination tended to give underlings "ideas"....
Dulinor, & you could argue Lucan, succeded to the Imperial Throne via this method, because it was virtually unheard of for such a barbaric & archaic method to be used....
(The Aslan Brotherhood of Tolklias, & the Imperial Brothers of Varian groups, that were formed after Dulinor/Lucan's ascention to power, via this method, in order to avenge their deaths, proved to be metaphorical "pains in the neck", as a result, to both of them respectively...).
Point 2) Agreed, although it could form a "stepping stone" to further promotion, that did have power in the Moot. (alternately, said "flunkey" could be the proxy for a more powerful but physically remote duke, & hence have influence above his social rank...).
3) Agreed. I would argue that said fiefs are intended to provide just enough income, for a duke to support himself & his personal retinue, without further fiaincial support from the Imperium... If said duke wished to obtain more money/land, than it comes out of his own pocket.....

 

[jatay3]

I would say that the first thing to remember is that the Imperium isn't actually an empire. Sure, it has the trappings of one, but it isn't.

It is a private trade association with it's own armed forces & it's own fiat currency. Members of the Imperium go along with it because it is cheaper than having to do everything themselves (Economics-wise).

The Imperium cares about keeping (generally) the peace, insuring that the mail gets through and the megacorps make a profit. And that is it.

The Imperium rules the space between worlds; the Imperium doesn't care about individual worlds. That is what got that guy Dulinor going. And we see what that led to.....

There is no representation from below because the Imperium doesn't care how individual worlds are ruled. All they care about is the territory that they control i.e. the Spaceport and that they get paid. What happens beyond the extra-legality line is of no interest unless someone starts throwing nukes around; then the Imperium gets involved. Because nukes are bad for markets.

The nobility by and large are just employees of that megacorporation called the 3rd Imperium. Usually, they are co-opted from the local planetary leadership. I would guess that the fiefs are part of the "price of admission" to join the Imperium.

Many of those same descriptions could apply to several Empires.