High Guard combat system anyone?

[Shadowfax]

I am interested in learning what system/engine people are using for starship combat? Does anyone use the High Guard system? If so what do you think of it? How have you modified it? etc?

I use High Guard, but I find it to be quite cumbersome at times . . . For example, when there are more than 2 ships involved or when either of those two ships go above a certain tonnage. : - |


I like High Guard, but each time I play I find myself having to look the charts for the USP factor of 23 mixed triple mount turrets on the PCs' new corsair (hyperbole warning of course).

I can always wing it, roll a few dice and say, "Number one turret explodes in a ball of fire, but the gamer in me wants a workable fast-flowing "cleaner" system with a reasonable modicum of rules that I can point to, if the players accuse me of being "too arbitrary". I am still looking for that system and wonder if any of you may have discovered it?

Are any of you using something else? Mayday? Starfire or Starfleet with home-made traveller SSDs? Come on you SF geeks I know you are out there! Show yourselves! = )


I'd just like to hear how others have dealt with starship combat in traveller.


-M

 

[aramis]

I tend to use MT vehicular combat mechanics, and a scaled variant of mayday movement.

 

[sabredog]

I use a two-tiered system for my campaign.

First rule is that only military and specialized ships (likely built by some government for a specific purpose) are built with HG. Civilian ships are built with Book 2.

Second rule is that combat is resolved using Book 2 (expanded by me to include likely to be used HG weapons as well as expanded damage tables) unless it is strictly a fleet action that the players have no active role in. If they are actively managing the ship then that ship will be handled using Book 2 while the background action will use HG for ease and speedy play.

This way I can shift back and forth between the fleet action and describing it while then zooming in to the player's ship and give them less abstract damage and action descriptions. Since players rarely get more than a 200-600 ton ship this works well.

The following are the rules I have come up with to expand on Book 2 combat and meld together the HG / Book 2 rules on the level most likely to be used by players (no meson spinal guns, but who'd shoot one of those at a Free Trader anyway?).

 

[sabredog]

One of the reasons I use a two-tiered system for ships in Traveller is to take the different levels of weaponry and energy requirements into account without causing an unbalance. In original LBB2 any freighter could mount the same armament as the biggest warship. You end up with the same situation as the old sailing days - a 24 pdr gun is a 24 pdr gun and the only difference is how many can you carry. Well and good, but when meson guns, shields, repulsors and PAW bays start entering the picture then things have to be changed.

So, the rules of thumb are:

If you are a civilian building a civilian ship you use LBB2 unless you need some super custom job for some reason. Like if you are building a research vessel that has some special requirements, or want to be able to use the more exotic weapons...

...in which case you then use HG to build your ship because if you are using other than the off-the-shelf components in LLB2 you have to take into account energy point requirements, finer tuned agility rules (one reason to custom build using HG is if you want a ship that absolutely positively has to have high agility all the time), and more flexiblity in design.

Ship hulls can be refit using either design system but again, only so long as you use the basic weapons can you use the LBB2 components. You want PAWs and/or screens you have to use HG.

Armor can be built into an LBB2 design per the HG rules. The primary sections of a ship can have armor added to them by calculating the tonnage of the section and using that to determine armor tonnage for that section alone. The sections are: Bridge (incl Computer), Fuel tankage, Engineering, Cargo, hull (everything else).

LBB2 ships can use drop tanks but the tanks do not add tonnage for the purposes of creating more hardpoints (no Gazelle Cheat allowed).

Component backups can be worked into either design system, but they are backups only - not combined for increased performance.

For purposes of determining agility you have to use the agility system matched to the design system used to build the ship:

LBB2 designs use my house rule for determining agility; this is because the maneuver drives in this system are smaller than in HG for the same thrust. Included in this house rule is the size limit for landing ships safely. LBB2 ships tend to be slower and less agile but cheaper.

HG ships use the HG formula for agility; it creates faster, more nimble ships which is why the maneuver drives are so huge. The house rule for size limits for landing still applies. HG ships tend to be faster and more agile, but more expensive.

Player ships built with HG don’t use the battery rules for weapons; that is only for the really big ships that players swim in the shadows of.

Bays are really huge turrets in my universe so you can’t use them to store things if you take out the weapons like it mentions in HG.

 

[sabredog]

High Guard ships have huge power plants and maneuver drives tailored to the specific ship designed compared with the off the shelf ones in Book 2. That means the High Guard drives are more efficient and will produce more bang for the buck, but you have to make sure the power is distributed to computers, weapons, shields, etc., so there might not be enough power left for high agility.

But, (IMTU) I assume that while the players don't have to worry about having enough power points for all their weapons and computers when designing Book 2 ships (which is my rule for all non-military ships), they don't get to have all that agility you can get from High Guard drives and plants.

I assign potential agility to Book 2 designs by tonnage. The actual agility the ship then gets is equal to the acceleration of the maneuver drive to the max potential. So 6-G fighters get 6, but an 800 ton cruiser can never have more than 3 no matter how big the drives are. Straight line acceleration is easy, but pushing the mass around laterally quickly takes more time and effort.

1-99 max Agility 6
100-300 max Agility 5
301-600 max Agility 4
601-800 max Agility 3
801-1000 max Agility 2
1001-2000 max Agility 1
2001 + no agility

Agility is based on the maneuver drive number up to the max allowed for the tonnage of the ship. For example, a 200 ton ship has a max agility potential of 5, but if the M-drive is only rated to 3 then that will be the agility.

Because LBB2 ships greater than 2000 tons have no agility rating they are only able to land on worlds with less than 1G of gravity and no atmosphere. There must also be a class A or B starport in order to have sufficient space and facilities to handle a ship of this size.

 

[sabredog]

Traveller Ship Combat Conventions

Expanded and modified High Guard/LBB2 rules to allow for small ship (5000 tons or less) combat.

Weapon Rules

Missiles – Per LBB2 missiles will always hit the target unless stopped by countermeasures. Missiles are fired at end of turn, and hit at end of following turn.

• ECM program stops all incoming missiles currently in flight on a roll of 7+
• Anti-Missile: Lasers can destroy one incoming missile on a roll of 8+ (+1/2 Gunnery skill, and +1 per laser in turret above the first one) Pulse Lasers must roll 9+. ONLY Beam Lasers used to fire on enemy targets are allowed to fire on incoming missiles, Pulse Lasers cannot shift fire quickly enough.
• Sandcasters: Each incoming missile must save at 11- on 2D6 if sand is fired.


Missile Types – Missiles may be fired from turrets or bays. Bay missiles (commonly called torpedoes) cannot be fired from turrets, but can be launched from ordnance hardpoints on small craft so equipped, i.e. FA-6 Avenger Torpedo/Bomber. A 50-ton missile bay fires 4 torpedoes at a time, a 100-ton bay fires 8.

• Standard HE: does 1D6 hits (less armor) applied randomly
• Standard HEAP: does 4 points damage (less armor) to one location
• HE Torpedo: as standard HE, but 3D6 hits
• HEAP Torpedo: 8 points damage (less armor) to one location


Energy Weapons – Each turret rolls only once to hit a target. All fired energy weapons in the turret hit on that single roll. Armor protects against each weapon mount independently. For example, a triple laser turret firing all its weapons rolls once to hit, and then once on the location table for 3 points of damage against that location less armor. 3 points of armor would keep out triple beam turrets no matter how many turrets fired.
• Beam Lasers – Beam lasers hit at 8+ (+/- appropriate DM) and do 1 point of damage each.
• Pulse Lasers – Pulse lasers hit at 9+ (+/- appropriate DM) and do 2 points damage each.
• Plasma / Fusion Guns – Both are short range weapons that can be fired from turrets and bays. Plasma guns do 3 points each, Fusion guns do 4. Bay versions are increased by 2 points respectively at 50 tons, 4 at 100 tons.
• Particle Accelerator Weapons (PAW)-
• PAW turrets do 4 points damage (less armor) plus 1 hit radiation damage, crew take 1D6.
• PAW barbettes do 6 points (less armor) and 2 hits/2D6 radiation damage
• PAW Bays 50-ton bays do 8 points damage (less armor) plus 4 hits / 3D6 radiation damage. 100-ton bays do 12 points damage (less armor) plus 6 hits/4D6 radiation damage.
Personal armor reduces crew radiation by that armor’s point value (Striker value).

Sandcasters – Sand will stop incoming laser fire at a rate of 1 canister of sand per laser stopped. For example: a triple laser turret would do 3 points damage if it hit, but only 1 point if 2 canisters of sand had been fired.

• Sand is launched at the end of the turn and counts towards the next round of laser fire.
• Sand only lasts one round of laser fire.
• Launchers may only launch one canister per turn.
• Sand will not stop fusion/plasma guns or PAW fire.


Armor – Ships may be armored per High Guard rules.


Boarding Actions

In all matters concerning maneuver the ship with the highest agility rating will dictate the range between ships.

To board another ship, its vector and velocity must be matched. To force a boarding the attacking vessel must have a higher agility than the target. If this is the case then the pilot of the boarding vessel must roll 10+ (plus Pilot or Small Craft skill as DM) to match course and lock the craft together.

The high roll is to simulate any desperate maneuvering the target ship may try at the last minute to avoid a forced boarding.


Damage Control

Critical hits may not be repaired since the damage has destroyed the component.

Components damaged to zero cannot be temporarily repaired more than to half their original value. For example: a Jump-2 drive damaged to 0 and then repaired will only function as Jump-1 until permanent repairs can be made.

Turrets hit twice are destroyed and may not be repaired,

All repairs are considered temporary only and will fail after the next jump unless more permanent repairs can be made in a shipyard.

The time required to make a repair is equal to 2D6 combat man-turns minus appropriate skill level. For example: the Jump Drive takes two points damage in combat. The Engineer rolls 2D6 and gets 5…less Engineer-3 equals 2 combat man-turns to patch things up. It means the Engineer will need 2 turns working by himself, or only 1 if another character with Engineer skill helps.

 

[sabredog]

Expanded Hit Location

Starships 50+ ton Non-Starships

2 Power Plant Power Plant
3 Maneuver Maneuver
4 Jump Maneuver
5 Fuel Fuel
6 Hull Hull
7 Hull Hull
8 Hold Hold
9 Bridge Bridge
10 Turret Turret (weapon mount)
11 Turret Turret (weapon mount)
12 Critical Critical





Bridge Hit

1 Navigation Down (Ship cannot be piloted)
2 Communications Down
3 Sensors / Fire Control Down (Cannot Jump, 1G only, Weapons on manual -1)
4 Life Support Failure
5 Storage Crash (10+ on 2D6 to save software)
6 CPU Crash (10+ on 2D6 to save software)


Hull Hit

1 Vehicle
2 Cargo
3 Cargo Doors / Ramp Jammed
4 Hold Space
5 Hold Space
6 Cargo

Hull Hit

1 Stateroom
2 Stateroom
3 Low Berth
4 Gravitics
5 Life Support
6 Common Area






Critical

1 Power Plant
2 Maneuver Drive
3 Jump Drive
4 Computer
5 Fuel Tanks Shatter
6 Destroyed




Radiation hit Location (For Rad Hits Only – other than personnel)

2 Navigation Sensors (Ship blinded)
3 ECM Systems (ECM program or dedicated system is destroyed or offline)
4-5 Avionics (Cannot Jump, 1G only)
6-7 Computer Storage Crash (10+ on 2D6 to save software)
8-9 Computer CPU Crash (10+ on 2D^ to save software)
10-12 Fire Control (Random Turret/Weapon Station Down)

 

[aramis]

I've been thinking about an alternate method for Bk 2 hit tables...

Put the Hull system on 7.
Put 2 largest on 8 and 6.
Next 2 largest on 9 and 5.
Armor, if mounted from HG, goes in 7, hull goes to 8
Unused become hull hits.

So, for a Type S
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Type S
DTd MTd _MCr._ Item
_15 _85 __2.__ 100 Td Std Hull
__0 _20 __0.__ Fuel: 2x10 PP
__0 _20 __0.__ Fuel: 1J2 100*20% =20
__0 _20 __0.5_ Bridge
[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]__0 _16 __2.__ 4 SR
[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]_10 __0 _10.__ JD A J2
[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]__4 __0 __8.__ PP A
[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]__0 __4 __0.6_ Air/Raft
__0 __3 __0.__ Cargo 3T
[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]__1 __0 __4.__ MD A 2G
[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]__0 __1 __4.__ Model 1/bis
__0 __1 __0.1_ HP & FC
__0 __0 __0.5_ Double Turret (empty)
__0 __0 __1.__ Streamlined
=== === ====== =====================
_15 _85 _32.7_ subtotal
__0 __0 _-3.27 Std Discount
=== === ====== =====================
_15 _85 _28.43 Total (Book says MCr29.43)
__0 __0 __0.__ Remainder

Crew: Pilot, Optional Gunner.

_2 Turrets
_3 MD
_4 PP
_5 JD
_6 Bridge
_7 Hull
_8 Fuel
_9 Quarters
10 Air/Raft
11 Cargo
12 Model 1/Bis

[/FONT]

 

[sabredog]

So wouldn't that mean a custom table per ship design?

 

[aramis]

So wouldn't that mean a custom table per ship design?

Yup. Sure would. As did TNE and T4.

 

[Johnny_BoomBoom]

We tended to use HG space combat....but probably incorrectly!!!

Also, if you onl yhad a 100 ton Scout or a 200 Ton Free Trader, the risk of a crifical hit from something like a Gazelle class ship could simply destroy the ship.....or wipe out the crew in a single swoop!!!

 

[mike wightman]

I use a combination of the range band system from ST and the crew actions from T20 for PC scale ship engagements.

For squadron lvl engagements I use HG with a tactical movement system borrowed from MT.

For fleet vs fleet I use a FFW derived system - again with a movement system based on MT.

 

[sabredog]

I use the range band system, too, but I must admit that I miss the vector movement from the old days. We used to draw it out on rolls of butcher paper to track ships and missiles without miniatures.

Lately, though it doesn't seem like anyone wants to go to the trouble of learning the system and so I just use the range bands and lots of cinematic description while trying to keep it all straight in my head and notepad.

 

[Shadowfax]

Inherent silliness!

(no meson spinal guns, but who'd shoot one of those at a Free Trader anyway?).

----------------My guys would ... that is, if they had a meson gun.

---------------I might also shoot a meson gun at a free trader, if I had one.

---------------In fact, I bet nearly anyone would (given the chance mind you) shoot a meson gun at a free trader. I mean, just to watch it go "Boom!" and all.

-----------------I'm sorry. I am digressing and being flippant. Its late. What can I say?

 

[Shadowfax]

We tended to use HG space combat....but probably incorrectly!!!

--------------Yeah, well . . . this is exactly what I do and exactly how I feel about it. We often do something and then after the dice are rolled and the damage has been applied I realize that we missed a modifier or cross indexed the wrong value on a chart. Then it is either bite my tongue or set the "way back machine" and do the combat over again. Either way I find it a bit annoying.

The HG rules are solid. Its just there is no easy visual element to this vector movement. Its hard to put something so realistic on a map. Especially when the enemy shoots past at 21 Gs of accumulated acceleration and the other ship is just pushing 3 Gs. Its like "BLAMO!"

I'd like to be able to put something on the map and have it be workable, visual and cool. You know what I mean? Usually, I just wing it and draw things with a pen on the battle-mat. "You are here. The enemy is here. As they approach you fire on them here. They begin to pick off your missiles here. etc. etc. It just seems to cut and dried. There is no rolling or spinning to get a better bead on them with the port weapons, diving in and out of the asteroids, pulling a high-G turn to get into their blind spot and all that cool jazz that we see in the movies! I mean, I make it that way through the description, but sometimes I wish I had a basis to refer or build on.

Do you follow me?

btw. I hate the range band thing. I mean, sure I tell them they are at this and that range, but that alone is too abstract. There never seems to be enough "terrain" in space. Sure the occasional planet, gas giant, or asteroid belt, but I feel like it has all been done before and after I do it once or twice it gets old. Incidentally, I did sort of use this abstract range band idea to create another layer of combat in 5th frontier war. (I am digressing again-Sorry.) You could put ships in the following roles/modes:
1. Scout
2. Skirmish
3. Line
4. Protected

Ships in scout mode played cat and mouse with any enemy fleet elements in scout or skirmish mode. Scouts generally are able to escape and increase tactical information about the enemy fleet unless they get ambushed.

Ships in skirmish mode were there to ambush and screen out enemy scouts and to skirmish with enemy fleet elements placed in skirmish mode. The skirmish line ships were also the ships that were in the first line of defence and as a result were the ships to get shot at first and the ships that had a chance of taking out enemy missiles fired at the capital ships. This was how engagements usually started.

Ships in the line were basically ready to duke it out with other ships in the line and to wreck any enemy ships exposed in the skirmish line, by concentrating fire on them.

I used and encounter table that helped determine the element engaged. Each FFW turn consisted of several combat substeps that allows each player choices about where he wanted to place his ships, whether or not he wanted to commit more forces to the engagement and whether he wanted to continue fighting or to try to disengage.

Protected ships are where the tankers, troopships, carriers and cripples hang out. You can launch and retrieve fighters from here, but you generally can't get hit unless there is a breakthrough or if a missile gets through the defenses.

 

[far-trader]

I don't think I'd hesitate to fire everything I had at a Free Trader, up to and including a spinal meson gun, if they had it coming. Why fiddle about hoping to disable them before they jump away or maybe score a lucky hit that does damage or causes casualties to me? Well I'd probably not waste missiles on them, those are expenses as they are expendable, but all the energy weapons heck yeah. Good practice for the gunners.

"An extra ration of rum for the first battery to make the merchie go boom and take it outta my skies. Sorry missiliers, you're not in the game, place your side bets accordingly."

 

[sabredog]

Ok, ok,...I'd love to go "varminting" with a Code T meson gun too.

It'd be like shooting a prairie dog at a mile with a .50 but I figure that's what prairie dogs were made for...probably some naval commander bored out of his skull patrolling the fringes of space might think the same way about a Free Trader.

"Hey, Cpt. Bingham on the Redoubtable pegged one last month at 3 light seconds...think we could do it at four? Be sure to launch a recon drone first so we get some good pictures."

 

[Shadowfax]

Boom! YEAH!!! = ))) (Grins)