How much is too much for a Game Book
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kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Inflation for the cost of arranged electrons.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Depends on you disposable income and what you are willing to spend.
I have spent rather a lot on T5 and could not resist the Dune limited edition...
I have spent rather a lot on T5 and could not resist the Dune limited edition...
Funny, I read the title more like "How big is to big for a game book" as in the overall size of the book.
I recall buying Azhanti High Lightning, the boardgame, back in the day. It was like $40.
Mind, I'm a high school student with Dad's money.
Adjusted, that's $128 in todays money.
Which my Pooh brain overloads on. The idea of dropping $128 on a boardgame.
However, I also know that there certainly are $100+ games out there.
In 1981 money, $30 is $9.30. Back then you could get High Guard for $6, and I think JTAS issues were $5 each.
So. In that sense, $30 today isn't that bad.
I recall buying Azhanti High Lightning, the boardgame, back in the day. It was like $40.
Mind, I'm a high school student with Dad's money.
Adjusted, that's $128 in todays money.
Which my Pooh brain overloads on. The idea of dropping $128 on a boardgame.
However, I also know that there certainly are $100+ games out there.
In 1981 money, $30 is $9.30. Back then you could get High Guard for $6, and I think JTAS issues were $5 each.
So. In that sense, $30 today isn't that bad.
Rigel Stardin
SOC-13
Where were you shopping? I picked up JTAS for $2.50. But yeah, money becomes more important as you get older. I could drop 100.00 on several gaming books and never thought about back in the day. Now I buy a candy bar and a soda, it's like, What the Heck? Daddy Warbucks here.
Oh I feel old. I remember saving up $4.98 for the next Traveller adventure. I was an unemployed teenager.
Now, I still have a hard time spending more than $10 on a PDF. I like the physical books.
Now, I still have a hard time spending more than $10 on a PDF. I like the physical books.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
I'm too cheap to buy it at that price. But then, I don't like MGT much, anyway.
A number of games' PDFs are pricy. Anything from Osprey, Cubical 7, or several others run pricey... $25-$30... but most are $15-$20, and many small press or older things are $5 to $10. Often, PDFs on 70's and 80's stuff are at original cover...
For $30 in PDF I'd be expecting a multi-hundred page tome with great art; for me to actually buy at that price... I mean, Dune was $25, multiple hundred gorgeous pages of game I used; currently less than that ($17 on current DTRPG discount).
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Before I buy anything, I first have to answer the question: Where do I put it? Then decide if it is worth spending the money on. PDF files are easy to modify if desired. Books are a tad harder. I am still debating about how much I would pay for a 1st Edition of Deities and Demigods by TSR.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I think I still have the predecessor, Gods Demigods and Heroes.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I do have the 1st Edition of Gods, Demigods, and Heroes with the Conan material. Some of that is public domain, but some of it is not. TSR included material from the L. Sprague De Camp Conan books in it, and those are not public domain, as far as I know.
The 2300AD book is listed on the Mongoose site for $99.00. That seems excessive to me.
I remember that spending $10 on something in the 80s required some amount of consideration. It wasn't a heavy purchase, but it was significant.
Today, I like PDFs for most documents. There are a few that I want in print format, but not many. So $30 for a PDF seems okay -- if you want it, and it gives you what you want.
Today, I like PDFs for most documents. There are a few that I want in print format, but not many. So $30 for a PDF seems okay -- if you want it, and it gives you what you want.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I think people forget that the work that goes into a pdf is often more than the printed work.
If the pdf is multilayered and fully bookmarked then more will have been done work wise and the people who do this work need paying too.
I think the Mongoose model of book + pdf for the same cost as just the printed book is fair. Having the pdf by itself cost almost as much as the book is also fair.
If the pdf is multilayered and fully bookmarked then more will have been done work wise and the people who do this work need paying too.
I think the Mongoose model of book + pdf for the same cost as just the printed book is fair. Having the pdf by itself cost almost as much as the book is also fair.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Inflation ratio is one to five from the Seventies till now.
I guess we could try paying with Imperiale Credits.
I guess we could try paying with Imperiale Credits.
PDF's lack the value of it can be loaned out, or ultimately re-sold. Though I use PDF's extensively, take my fire to the table, and such as when I got the Cepheus Engine SRD, I printed out the relevant sections I wanted and put the in a three-ring binder, then they can get annotated without care. I think my limit is strictly utilitarian, if I want it, and will use it, I'll buy it.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Printing pages and making your own play aids and ref charts certainly saves wear and tare on books, and I never loan books out unless I have at least three copies.
though unless you use a laser printer or a print shop, it can be more expensive to print anything significant than actually buying a book.
I do have a hard time spending a lot on a PDF, even knowing as pointed out there is a both the same content and actually more work often than in physically printed media. The distribution cost is essentially zero, but the creation cost is the same. I usually get both a physical and electronic form, and as I just dropped almost $100 on a limited-edition book, guess my price point is really based on if I think I'll use it enough, and if so, does it warrant a really good copy. I generally do go for the higher-end versions but I've also stopped getting as much as I used to. I realized I was not actually using what I already had, and more stuff won't make me happy.
But $30 for a PDF I would probably not do. I'd get the physical book & the PDF and pay more just so that I don't forget I even have the PDF (like many here, I must have 1000's of PDFs and while generally organized by game/theme/whatever, I find that if I poke around I have a LOT of things I've entirely forgotten about. Of course, my several shelves of game books have sort of the same thing, but at least I can see them all at once. Except for those that have fallen behind other books!)
I do have a hard time spending a lot on a PDF, even knowing as pointed out there is a both the same content and actually more work often than in physically printed media. The distribution cost is essentially zero, but the creation cost is the same. I usually get both a physical and electronic form, and as I just dropped almost $100 on a limited-edition book, guess my price point is really based on if I think I'll use it enough, and if so, does it warrant a really good copy. I generally do go for the higher-end versions but I've also stopped getting as much as I used to. I realized I was not actually using what I already had, and more stuff won't make me happy.
But $30 for a PDF I would probably not do. I'd get the physical book & the PDF and pay more just so that I don't forget I even have the PDF (like many here, I must have 1000's of PDFs and while generally organized by game/theme/whatever, I find that if I poke around I have a LOT of things I've entirely forgotten about. Of course, my several shelves of game books have sort of the same thing, but at least I can see them all at once. Except for those that have fallen behind other books!)
Except that you're ignoring the realities of the publisihing business...
The MSRP is typically 4× the cost to distributor, and half cost to retailer. Assuming that they're losing 40%, to DTRPG, and that the extra time prepping for PDF costs as much as per copy printing, then 42% (0.25/0.6) is plenty to maintain parity.
Layers and such are a standard element in most publishing software; if they're using actual page layout software (most likely Adobe inDesign, but there are other options, such as Scribus) the layers being accessible for turn off is pretty easy - and keeping things on the correct layers is just good design practice.
Internal links can be autogenerated, tho' it's not recommended; having added links to several books for my own use, it's non-trivial. (using just Acrobat X and an unlocked PDF, creating navigation ("Structure") links to chapter headings takes about 30 minutes for a typical 200pg book; to subheadings about 4 hours. Adding the structure links to the TOC was about half an hour. This was while only minimally familiar with Acrobat X.
So, about a day's labor.... but, having worked with Pagemaker, Scribus, and one other commerc DTP program, I'll point out that they generate the structure database automatically; including the structure tree is a single click. Adding internal links for the TOC is likewise minimal - a few minutes. And the PDF for the printer is, aside from resolution settings, able to be the same layout files. Changing the resolution from 2400 DPI (which is what my local printer wanted) to 150 (which is what we put on the website in the late 90's, when I was doing publication work as part of my day job) takes pressing Command-P a second time, changing the DPI in the output, and changing the filename.
As for the price charged the distributor, that's inclusive of printing. Which, based upon things said by Pinnacle Entertainment, John Wick, Margaret Weiss, RPG Pundit, and a few others in the OSR world, a typical small press company is marking the physical up 10% to 30% over cost to their warehouse. Smaller runs, higher percentage...
John Wick noted that he saw more money per unit selling PDF at $5 than selling the dead tree... I asked when Houses of the Blooded was new... I never bought the dead tree on that one. IIRC, Blood and Honor... $15 dead tree; $5 in PDF.
To make an Xboat issue, I needed to pay my InDesign dues. I bought the artwork for each issue. I bought a few finished articles (and I still have one I haven't used from Chad Russell that I also have to pay for).
$700 (AVERAGE. Each issue was different) to create each issue, and my time and effort are "free".
I cede a cut of each PDF sold to DriveThruRPG. I get something like 70% of the listed price maybe?
It's fine, as a hobby.
**
Next, to PRINT a run of Xboats cost me another $350 up-front for a print run of 350.
So to do one "theoretical issue" of Xboat would cost $700 to create the InDesign document, then another $350 to print a run of 350, and $500 to mail them out (international is expensive, domestic is ok). Guesstimate $1550 from start to a fully distributed small print run.
I did five issues.
^ But consider what I could have done if I had spent $1400 on each issue, instead of $700....
Makes me never want to print again.
$700 (AVERAGE. Each issue was different) to create each issue, and my time and effort are "free".
I cede a cut of each PDF sold to DriveThruRPG. I get something like 70% of the listed price maybe?
It's fine, as a hobby.
**
Next, to PRINT a run of Xboats cost me another $350 up-front for a print run of 350.
So to do one "theoretical issue" of Xboat would cost $700 to create the InDesign document, then another $350 to print a run of 350, and $500 to mail them out (international is expensive, domestic is ok). Guesstimate $1550 from start to a fully distributed small print run.
I did five issues.
^ But consider what I could have done if I had spent $1400 on each issue, instead of $700....
Makes me never want to print again.
