How stealthy is BD?

[Renaissance Man]

Re our continuing exploration of 3I military operations:

Does BD have an edge over larger planetary assault vehicles with regards to its EM/neutrino/visual signature?

If so, I can see a serious advantage of using BD over larger vehicles in a planetary assault. All the discriminating firepower of infantry, combined with some of the mobility of grav-gunships, and delivered on a platform that far less likely to encounter heavy firepower until it reaches it's target.

Also, it conjures up a cool image: ultra-black suits of monstrous aspect, composed of EM deflecting planes that float down like shadows in the night spraying death wherever they can. On thermoimaging - black but with tiny patches of white on the back where heat is dissipated and directed away. As long as they're facing their target, effectively invisible. Obsidian nightmares.

 

[Major B]

Not sure if any reference so states, but I've always assumed that BD 'bleeds' off heat in the same way as the combat environment suit (IIRC) described in Book 4.

I've also assumed you could incorporate visual chameleon (to go with the IR masking) for an added price. But I've always considered this a variable camouflage coating, not a form of 'light bending' (like the predator).

Beyond that I've never really considered BD to be a stealth system beyond the creative ability of an infantryman to make himself blend in with the scenery. What you described seems to me a situation where your BD-equipped attackers have a complete disregard for the capabilities of their enemies. Probably not what you meant, but that was the impression I had when I read it.

With a wide TL disparity in the favor of your troops, maybe that would be the case. Where the TL matchup is more even I have always assumed that the lethality of weapons made it more important to not be seen because usually the enemy will only shoot at what they see.

That makes IR/thermal 'bleeding' or neutralizing important as well as EMM so you don't show up on enemy passive energy scans. Visual blending helps too, but rather than black something that automatically blends with the surrounding cover is better. In fact, maybe that would be even more scary - rather than the obsidian nightmare, fear the nightmare where you never see the enemy - you only know he is near when those around you start dropping dead.

 

[jec10]

In CT/Striker at TL12+ you may add a chameleon finish to CES, Combat Armour, or Battle Dress for Cr1000 extra (so worth it for the last two, arguable on the first).

This will make you undetectable by TI or Passive IR of any TL. (CES, Combat Armour, or Battle Dress is always undetectable to TI/IR of a lower TL regardless of chameleon finish).

NOTE: it does nothing to protect you from observation by radar or visual-light sensors - so it is not a 'stealth' finish. You cannot buy ECM (the CT/Striker version of EMM) for personal armour.

BTW, I'm not sure you've got your description of Battle Dress correct. It does not enable you to fly. For that you need to buy a grav belt. Or arrive by jump capsules, which do feature ECM and armour in their military versions (CT/Striker Rule 77).

 

[Icosahedron]

I'd never figured on radar being used to detect BD. I suppose their 'stealth' is geared to the most likely detection devices - optical, IR and thermal. I like the image of faceted suits, but as the Major says, they're more likely to have variable camo - not that it would make much difference at night. I agree that chemical chill cans and selective bleeding (however that works) would be incorporated into BD, so you could probably lose the white spots.
Of course, you could have faceted suits as well.
I always figured that the chameleon finish included variable visual camo, but maybe that's just MTU?

I house-ruled a Predator-like Shimmer Shield, but at Imperial TLs it's too big for personal protection. Effective for vehicles and area defence though.

How about another cool image for the Dark Imperium: a stealth saucer APC armed with invisible maser or X-ray laser cannons that passes silently overhead, scything down the local troopers like the Grim Reaper. That would probably still put the wind up the low-techs and be better protected against higher tech opposition.

I've no idea how well a cloud of grav-belted BD drop-troops would show up on radar, compared with equivalent APCs. Maybe the experts will tell us.

 

[Renaissance Man]

Beyond that I've never really considered BD to be a stealth system beyond the creative ability of an infantryman to make himself blend in with the scenery. What you described seems to me a situation where your BD-equipped attackers have a complete disregard for the capabilities of their enemies. Probably not what you meant, but that was the impression I had when I read it.

Yes, point taken. You must excuse my techno-fetishism - I was captured by the image But I do expect that BD would have a lower signature than assault vehicles, based on size if nothing else. And I like the viz-chameleon notion.

BTW, I'm not sure you've got your description of Battle Dress correct. It does not enable you to fly. For that you need to buy a grav belt. Or arrive by jump capsules, which do feature ECM and armour in their military versions (CT/Striker Rule 77).

Really? Hurm. So grav belts aren't integrated into BD? I never thought about that.

 

[Bob Weaver]

If you can find it, Digest Group's MegaTraveller Journal issue 1 has a nice article on BD. It discusses the structure of BD, it's standard and add-on features etc. I'll try to write up a summary of the article for this thread.

 

[Bob Weaver]

Really? Hurm. So grav belts aren't integrated into BD? I never thought about that.

I've always taken grav belts as being either as part of the standard kit or a common mission-based accessory. Although on the ground the BD suit can reach a respectable cruising speed in 'run' mode anyway.

Cheers,

Bob W.

 

[Bob Weaver]

If you can find it, Digest Group's MegaTraveller Journal issue 1 has a nice article on BD. It discusses the structure of BD, it's standard and add-on features etc. I'll try to write up a summary of the article for this thread.

And here it is:
Summary of "Dressed To Kill" by Tom Peters

The article starts with a history of the BD suit and an overview of general capabilities. Several ancestors of BD are mentioned to be discussed later. The next section dissects the BD suit and describes its components - structure and internal mechanisms. Chameleon patterns in the visible spectra are mentioned specifically, plus the use of zero-friction bearings and other joint parts to allow the suit to be nearly silent. Much description of enviro and life support functions. Mentions the IR suppression system as a weakness - at maximum energy use it can produce very visible heat plumes.
Next section introduces some variants - the Forward Observer config [ basic kit (which includes grav belt) and more comm gear]; the Commando config [basic kit, more weapons and defenses]; and the Assault config [basic kit, extra armor, drop capsule attachments, weapon choices].
The article continues with description of two predecessors, the Walkabout (IISS issue) and the Battlesuit - a sort of mini BattleMech. Following are some MT-style equipment sheets detailing the BD varieties mentioned.
In summary, this article gives BD some flavor & color to our favorite bit of heavy equipment. Worth getting a copy of the article if the issue can be found.

There are several stealth-related systems described here: Camo pattern exterior, silent movement and silent flight with the grav belt which seems to be pretty standard. There was not any mention of radar-defeating measures. Is modern radar capable of detecting a man-sized figure, or would the suit not provide enough return signal? Any radar experts about?

Cheers,

Bob W.

 

[Major B]

Is modern radar capable of detecting a man-sized figure, or would the suit not provide enough return signal? Any radar experts about?

Bob, I'm no radar expert but I do know the US Army has been using Ground-Surveillance Radar systems for some time. I have no idea how effective it is at discerning a man-size target but if we have radar systems today I think that when we reach the TL where BD is commonplace there will be radar/ladar or related systems that would be effective.

 

[jec10]

In CT/Striker you cannot use radar to detect non-vehicles. Not sure about later rules-systems.

So chameleon-coated grav-belt wearing battle dress troops would only have to worry about Mark One Eyeballs (or other visual-light sensors such as Image Enhancement).

It is interesting to consider the cost and mainenance implications of a grav belt, BD unit. In CT/Striker TL14 BD plus chameleon surface would cost Cr351,000 per trooper. Then add Cr100,000 for the grav belt. Total cost: Cr451,000 per trooper. Cost for an eight-man squad: ~MCr3.6 (or about the same as a grav APC with a decent fusion gun)
In CT/Striker each suit of BD requires 3 maintenance points, as does each grav belt. Hence each eight-man squad will require 48 maintenance points. In CT/Striker each mechanic provides 50 MPs, so each squad will require their own mechanic with tool-kit to deploy with them.

This ignores costs and maintenance/supply requirements deriving from other items such as weapons, communicators, sensors, etc.

 

[jec10]

And here it is:
Summary of "Dressed To Kill" by Tom Peters

the grav belt which seems to be pretty standard.
Cheers,

Bob W.

Hmm, not sure that is my reading of the article. After no mention of the grav belt until then in the article, on p.47 Peters makes clear that a grav belt is an optional extra addition: "...with the addition of a grav belt, it can travel at over 100kph and independently achieve orbit..."

Only the specialised forward observer/commando suits regularly feature the grav belt module, not the standard suits (see the chart on page 50). This is not surprising, in my non-battle dress units I give the forward observers grav belts so they can get in position quickly.

 

[Renaissance Man]

I'd say in MTU integrated grav harnesses will be standard, TL permitting. Mobility pays off, especially when you're already dealing with hundreds of thousands of credits (or millions) of milspec merchandise.

 

[Major B]

Renaissance Man, building on Jec10’s earlier post, here’s some food for thought when you build the equipment list for YTU:

If you add the grav belt to the armor suite, is it still cost effective to get battle dress rather than the less expensive combat armor?

The benefits of battle dress are the strength and dexterity boost to the wearer and the ability to use the PGMP-13 and/or FGMP-14.

With a grav belt, the strength advantage of BD is mostly eliminated as the grav system can be tuned to eliminate much of the weight carried. Also, other weapons can match or at least come close to the pen and damage of the PGMP-13/FGMP-14.

For example, (using MT tables):

Trooper #1
Battle Dress-14: kCr 350 (armor rating 18)
FGMP-14: ------- kCr 100 (pen/atten 34/2, damage 14)
Ammo Pack: ----- kCr 65
Total: --------- kCr 615

Trooper #2
Combat Armor-14: kCr 60 (armor rating 18)
Grav Belt-12: -- kCr 100
PGMP-14: ------- kCr 100 (pen/atten 25/1, damage 14)
Ammo Pack: ----- kCr 250
Total: --------- kCr 510

Trooper #3
Combat Armor-14: kCr 60 (armor rating 18)
Grav Belt-12: -- kCr 100
Gauss Rifle-12: kCr 1.5
RAM GL-13: ----- kCr 2 (HEAP pen 38, damage 6)
Total: --------- kCr 163.5

Trooper #1 is state-of-the-art but the cost of fitting him out is formidable. Trooper #2 is at first glance an even greater bargain until you take into account the increased cost of his ammo pack. Even then, he carries firepower close to that of Trooper #1 and has greater mobility. Though he does not have the power augmentation of the BD-equipped trooper his equipment kit costs over 100 kCr less, a significant saving. Trooper #3 has the same amount of armor protection as both #1 and #2. He has the same mobility advantage as #2 but similarly lacks the power augmentation of #1. His weapons cost significantly less then the others but has the same range (distant) and higher penetration though causing less damage than the others per hit.

This is why IMTU only select units have Battle Dress. Most units have kits like Troopers #2 and #3 simply because the costs are too high, especially when you count the up-front costs like I’ve shown here and also add in the long-term maintenance and upkeep costs as Jec10 pointed out.

 

[Icosahedron]

Just thinking aloud here (and not looking up any stats or costs) but wouldn't the Laser Rifle be useful here? IIRC it has Pen 20?

Grav bikes (2 per fire team) are probably a cheaper option still. Not as versatile as the belts, but you could afford to field larger numbers of these 'dragoons', and the extra firepower will maybe offset versatility.

 

[jec10]

This thread keeps getting better!

Forgive me my obsession with cost effectiveness. For the last twenty years the main Traveller I have played is what we called in the '80s "Rapp's Ten Million Credit Striker". You can probably guess that this is a rip off of Trillion Credit Squadron for ground-pounders. Using the campaign rules in CT/Striker plus a few specific parameters (just like in TCS) for things designers would otherwise skimp on (like fuel tankage or life support) you use ten million credits to outfit your mercenary force and then go at it against another ten million credit force.

One thing TMCS teaches you pretty quickly is the value of cost effectiveness or bang for the buck. Without giving away trade secrets of mine, it soon becomes obvious that certain weapons/capabilities are not worth the cost. IIRC some TMCS players wrote articles in JTAS outlining the more well-known recommendations, just as did Triliion Credit Squadron players.

Definitely isocahedron is correct to identify the TL13 laser rifle as a particularly useful weapon. It can go through the best BD/CA, has as good/better range than other portable energy weapons, costs less than most, and can be carried by someone not wearing (expensive) powered armour.
At mid-tech levels, I'd take the Assault Rocket Launcher over the TL9 Laser Rifle.

And I'd agree with Major B that if I was going for grav belts with all their cost and maintenance requirements, I'd take combat armour over battle dress most of the time. Ditch the PGMP-14 of Trooper 2 in your eg for a laser rifle-13 and now we're talking cost effective. Maybe have one PGMP-14 per squad?

 

[Major B]

Actually I was thinking one PGMP-14 per team so two per squad. The rest have the gauss rifle with RAM GL.

Thanks to you both for pointing out the laser rifle. I had always assumed that Reflec armor negated the effectiveness of the laser weapons that I think I must have held on to from somewhere in the distant past playing Snapshot. Now that you've got me to look, at TL 13 the laser carbine and rifle can penetrate reflec armor and the laser rifle has enough power to penetrate TL14 battle dress and combat armor (pen/atten is 20/2). The relatively small damage of 3 leaves this system at a slight disadvantage to the RAM GL but the laser does have the advantage of having a low signature (at TL 13) so it is less prone to give away the firer's position. The laser rifle also has the added utility of being useful for target designation for laser-guided ordnance.

Maybe a mix of GLs and Laser Rifles is a better solution... More on that later I think.

Thanks again.

 

[jec10]

A mix is definitely a good idea in general. Problem with RAM grenades is that they can be shot down by point defence systems. Lasers cannot.

 

[Anthony]

As yet another perspective on the issue, in GURPS Traveller low end battle dress isn't particularly stealthed, but the high end military stuff has extensive stealth, emissions suppression, and an adaptive chameleon surface.

 

[jec10]

As yet another perspective on the issue, in GURPS Traveller low end battle dress isn't particularly stealthed, but the high end military stuff has extensive stealth, emissions suppression, and an adaptive chameleon surface.

What sort of protection does military battle dress offer in the GT universe? i.e. is it invulnerable to most man-portable weapons below an FGMP-12 (I think that is the GT equivalent of an FGMP-15, correct me if I'm wrong, not a Gurps man sorry). How does it fare against things like autocannon or RAM grenades?

What are the sensor detection rules like in GT? Can you detect a battle dress sized target with radar for instance?

 

[Renaissance Man]

This is why IMTU only select units have Battle Dress. Most units have kits like Troopers #2 and #3 simply because the costs are too high, especially when you count the up-front costs like I’ve shown here and also add in the long-term maintenance and upkeep costs as Jec10 pointed out.

I agree with this. I've never envisioned BD troops as main line troops, even for the Marines. They are essentially a fusion of infantry and armoured vehicle, and should be considered somewhere between the two with regards to mission and cost.

I hadn't considered troopers #2 and #3 because I haven't considered combat armour in awhile. T4 didn't have combat armour - though I remember it from MT. Clearly though, these kits are far more cost effective and standard in the IAF. (Thanks for the illustration BTW.)

So the question is WHY use BD?

1) In MTU, working off of the T4 notions of BD, they have an onboard power plant (fusion+) that gives them a good operational range.

2) They are panibious (all environment), and thus can operate freely in any kind of atmosphere, or no atmosphere without significant penalties.

3) They can carry the heaviest infantry weapons and move whatever gear is necessary, including a more sophisticated suite of computer-assisted communications and targeting equipment. (Or so I speculate.)

4) They are mobile, as per other infantry with CG assisted locomotion.

5) They are more difficult to detect and target, and eliminate than the equivalent tonnage of vehicles, and can accomplish more. Assuming they are equipped with the same stealth technology and have the advantage of smaller size and an irregular signature.

They are primarily heavy shock troops, the "spear-tip" of an assault. Also specialized commando or recon units. NOT for your average GI.