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Idea for an Alternate Maneuver Drive

I'm sure its been done to death, then resurrected and done to death again, but I'm thinking of creating alternate drives for my new Traveller game. I'd love any input the boards have to offer.

M-Drives first, I'll do a J-Drive post later.

My goal for the M-drive is a reactionless drive that doesn't make relatevistic missiles too probable and doesn't hurt the laws of physics any more than is strictly necessary.

Right now, I'm thinking of a two phase drive (called a HIFI drive) that works by pushing against nearby mass through a magical handwavy "Hyperspatial Impulse FIeld". The ship's power plant send energy to the drive and it "pushes" against the nearest large mass without anything physically between the drive and the mass. You nudge the nearby planet or star by some incomprehensibly small amount, but the same force on your smaller mass pushes you at decent acceleration. In "low gear" the field is tightly focused around your ship- you get max acceleration from your drives, but thrust falls off rapidly as you get distance between you and the nearest 'reaction' mass. The "low gear" zone around a mass will be roughly 100 Diameters or so, allowing for typical Traveller engagements at normal accelerations. In "high gear" the drive's "hyperspatial impulse field" pushes against the mass of the whole solar system, but much, much less intensely. In "high gear" you get some smaller percentage of normal thrust, and it stays fairly consistent as long as you are within some arbitrary distance (i.e some number of AU to make visiting outer orbits reasonable, but not enough to allow too much acceleration) of the system's center of mass. Outside a system (a place a ship spends a decent amount of time because of the way my jump drive is conceived) the ship must rely on fusion rockets or some other means of real-space propulsion. This gives escorts and fighters (equipped with fusion rockets) a clear role in fleet engagements- they are the ships that can move when the fleet gets hit between stars. Battleships designed to fight near worlds can forgo the extra fuel needed as reaction mass.

The drive is also subject to an increased relativistic energy effect. (I know its not a good sciency way of saying it. I love sci-fi, but I was a liberal arts major). That is, the amount of power needed to continue accelerating in "high gear" increases sharply as your velocity relative to the system's center of mass increases, similar as it would as if you were approaching c by some non-magical propulsion means. My off the cuff design idea is that it should not be possible to hit even .01c before range to the center of mass and increased power supply cuts you off from more acceleration.

Any thoughts, criticism, scientific scoffing, reactions of any kind are greatly appreciated.
 
Now you're making me afraid.

I'll add something I meant to add to the first post to help with some of that fear. Its a game, first and foremost its about playability and fun.

Reactionless drives are magic. I know. No arguments here. I just want to have something that allows cool spaceships without dedicating huge amounts of the ship to fuel. Because laser beams, and cargo bays, and high passenger quarters are all fun. Fuel is boring.

I would also like to avoid or, at least, provide some plausible in-game rationale for why there can be reactionless drives, but no near-c devesation rocks.
 
That kinda sounds like what I already imagine pre-thruster plate M-Drives work like, though with fancier words. :)

Post thruster-plate drives are really "space warp" drives, though in Traveller, warping space is no where near as effective as it is in Star Trek.

BTW and somewhat OT, Somewhere (possibly here) someone did an analysis of Trek Warp factors (I think based off of TOS cannon - Trek's not consistent about what Warp factors mean from series to series), and it turns out that a Warp 9 TOS Trek ship is about as fast as a Jump-4 Traveller ship.
 
That kinda sounds like what I already imagine pre-thruster plate M-Drives work like, though with fancier words. :)

Post thruster-plate drives are really "space warp" drives, though in Traveller, warping space is no where near as effective as it is in Star Trek.

BTW and somewhat OT, Somewhere (possibly here) someone did an analysis of Trek Warp factors (I think based off of TOS cannon - Trek's not consistent about what Warp factors mean from series to series), and it turns out that a Warp 9 TOS Trek ship is about as fast as a Jump-4 Traveller ship.
Hunter did one.

However, I don't trust hunter's numbers...

Input assumptions:
  • Maximum sustained rate is 1 jump per 9 days.
  • Standard sustained rate is 1 jump per 14 days.
  • Standard duration of jump is 7 days.
  • year = exactly 365 days.
  • oWF is OCU (TOS Scale) of C=WF³
  • nWF is NCU (TNG Scale) of C=WF10/3


J9 Max 1,189.900C (oWF10.597 nWF8.369)
_ Standard 764.936C (oWF9.146 nWF7.33)
J8 Max 1,057.689C (oWF10.189 nWF8.078)
_ Standard 679.943C (oWF8.793 nWF7.075)
J7__ Max 925.478C (oWF9.745 nWF7.761)
__ Standard 594.95C (oWF8.411 nWF6.797)
J6__ Max 793.267C (oWF9.257 nWF7.41)
___ Standard 509.957C (oWF7.989 nWF6.49)
J5__ Max 661.056C (oWF8.711 nWF7.016)
__ Standard 424.964C (oWF7.518 nWF6.145)
J4__ Max 528.844C (oWF8.087 nWF6.561)
__ Standard 339.971C (oWF6.979 nWF5.747)
J3__ Max 396.633C (oWF7.347 nWF6.019)
__ Standard 254.979C (oWF6.341 nWF5.272)
J2__ Max 264.422C (oWF6.418 nWF5.33)
___ Standard 169.986C (oWF5.54 nWF4.668)
J1__ Max 132.211C (oWF5.094 nWF4.329)
__ Standard 84.993C (oWF4.397 nWF3.792)
That presumes, of course, that one is using TOS speeds; TNG speeds are funky... especially above 9.

Some WF references
WF1.0 OCU=__1.000C NCU=___1.000C
WF1.5 OCU=
__3.375C NCU=___3.863C
WF2.0 OCU=
__8.000C NCU=__10.079C
WF2.5 OCU=
_15.625C NCU=__21.206C
WF3.0 OCU=
_27.000C NCU=__38.941C
WF3.5 OCU=
_42.875C NCU=__65.097C
WF4.0 OCU=
_64.000C NCU=_101.594C
WF4.5 OCU=
_91.125C NCU=_150.444C
WF5.0 OCU=125.000C NCU=
_213.747C
WF5.5 OCU=166.375C NCU=
_293.681C
WF6.0 OCU=216.000C NCU=
_392.498C
WF6.5 OCU=274.625C NCU=
_512.52C
WF7.0 OCU=343.000C NCU=
_656.135C
WF7.5 OCU=421.875C NCU=
_825.792C
WF8.0 OCU=512.000C NCU=1024.000C
WF8.5 OCU=614.125C NCU=1253.323C
WF9.0 OCU=729.000C NCU=1516.381C
 
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>Warp 9 TOS Trek ship is about as fast as a Jump-4 Traveller ship.

unlikely except in specific short range cases since there is :-
no astrographic issues with warp eg no need of a star 4 parsecs away to jump to
no fuelling time delays with dilithium warp drives

I would expect a startrek ship to beat an (optimised route) xboat message from terra to regina even with the x-boat mail in theory being optimised to minimise fuel and astrographic issues
 
J6 is roughly Warp 9 equivalent, at maximum rates of speed. (Actually, under MT, I can get it down to 2Pc per 16d... but that's because an MT J6 ship can carry two J6 fuel...)

It's closer to Warp 7 at civil rates.
 
Any thoughts, criticism, scientific scoffing, reactions of any kind are greatly appreciated.

Interesting.

This is similar in concept to a real-life theory I brought up in another thread. Links are on the #5 and #11 posts in this thread:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=23220

Here's a quote from an article about it:

Prof. James Woodward has spent more than a decade working out a Machian theory of inertia which holds the promise of a propellantless space-drive able to turn power directly into motion.

I wouldn't even begin to know how to explain it properly. But here's another quote that might give you some ideas:

The M-E [Mach Effect] is based on the idea that when a mass is accelerated through a local potential field gradient, its local rest mass is momentarily perturbed about its at-rest value. These resulting acceleration induced “mass fluctuations” used in conjunction with a secondary force rectification signal can then be used to generate an unbalanced force in a local mass system, which can accelerate a payload or generate energy. Local system energy and momentum conservation is maintained by interactions with all the distant mass in the universe. Therefore to accelerate a spacecraft here, the Machian interpretation of inertial reaction forces means that each star or other distant matter in the universe will move in the opposite direction of the locally accelerated mass in response here – even if only on an extremely small scale. Conservation of energy and momentum must be maintained globally, but nature doesn’t say how big the system box has to be, nor when the accounting has to be done.

Way over my head and contrary to most conventional wisdom (which is why he can't get funding). But it sounds to me that the drive 'pushes' against the inertia of the rest of the universe. And that sounds pretty similar to what you described for your drive.

How you could put that in Traveller terms, I have no idea.
 
This topic has been discussed quite recently, perhaps on the thread Spinward Scout linked to above.
As I stated on the other thread, I don't think a gravitic drive pushing against local mass will work (even with two or more 'gears') because the local gravitational field strength varies by factors of billions if not trillions throughout a solar system. However, some form of Machian Inertial Drive might be the way to go - the drive pushes against the mass of the universe as a whole, ignoring local gravity fields.

I'll have to put that Woodward paper on my (already too long) reading list.

Edit: No, the discussion was here:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=23154
 
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Thanks for the ideas. I'm not so keen on a Mach-Lorentz drive- well, I don't understand it enough to have an opinion on the idea itself- but I'm not keen on a drive that "pushes on the whole universe" because that requires that the drive be able to generate thrust outside the gravity well of a star. This has two consequences I want to avoid- near-c weaponry and effective m-drives in deep space.

My alternate jump drive idea involves many small jumps of hundreds to thousands of light-hours per jump, with several hours in real-space between jumps. I like the idea of m-drive only ships being essentialy helpless during these realspace stopovers. Thus reaction drive equipped escorts must travel with them, pirates with reaction drives can jump near merchants and have a chance of taking the ship etc... Ship designers have a choice of more space with smaller m-drives (and no maneuverability in interstellar space) or give over a lot of the ship to carrying propellant for deep space maneuvering. Although, too be fair, I'll probably use some outrageously effective reaction drive that will be far to efficient to be "real."

I also want to avoid a "gravity" based drive because it seems to lead to so many problems, like the variations in gravity changing so quickly, or questions about how a truly massive 'virtual mass' in front of the ship doesn't wreck everything else around the ship when it takes off from a downport. Rather than relying on a gravity effect, my m-drive pushes on matter, just like a rocket pushes on matter. It just is able to (magically) push on matter than happens to be over there. Rather than being "reactionless" its more like a "reaction-at-a-distance" drive.

Sounds like some form of Mach-esque drive is the way to go though.
 
J6 is roughly Warp 9 equivalent, at maximum rates of speed. (Actually, under MT, I can get it down to 2Pc per 16d... but that's because an MT J6 ship can carry two J6 fuel...)

It's closer to Warp 7 at civil rates.


The one advantage of Trav ships is that fuel is at least available throughout space. Anti-matter, not as easy...
 
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