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Ideas for variant CT/HG Space combat rules

tater

SOC-10
Just chucking this out there---I will spitball some ideas for a new, HG design compliant combat system.

I've wanted to do this for decades, frankly. I have used various IMTU rules over the years, and wanted to actually make less of a kit bash, and more of a redo of HG/B2/Mayday that is internally consistent, and not fundamentally broken like HG is. Canon is to be observed, but only in the narrative sense. B2 is canon, and ships are invulnerable to beam attack with a couple sand caster turrets installed, for example. or that lasers cannot hit certain targets, ever, in HG, but spinals CAN.

A way to read canon is a sort of "read the intent" and "read between the lines." Members here sometimes post very good examples of how this works... "hits" might not be every hit from a battery, but the aggregate effect. That and hits that connect with useful parts. So 30 lasers in HG fire, and get 1 roll, just like 1 laser does. Fewer of the lower factor attacks "hit," however, so overall, the results are about right, they'd say. Meaningfully hit. HG doesn't care about recording scortched paint, or other "hits" that do nothing useful to keep track of. I get it.

That said, my small craft example above is telling. Our size 0, agility 6 craft is impossible to hit with ANY laser battery in HG at long range. Only 2.8% hit at close. A factor D MG or better, or a factor 9 or better PAW can hit it (A at long). If "hits" are in fact "effective hits" I can understand such a result vs, say, large, armored ships. A 100 lasers can actually hit, and not be capable of doing damage, where a MG or PAW might. In this case, the lasers are ONLY missing because of AGILITY and TARGET SIZE. Sure, the danger space of a PAW is bigger than a single laser, but not 100 factor 9 batteries of lasers (all of which fired at our test craft will miss---actually miss, since any hit WOULD be damaging).

So a fix might be to cease using agility as a DM to hit. Which makes agility useless. Clearly not what we want, right?

A given is a movement system to start, with a HG abstraction tacked on later for vast fleet actions. I'd use a version of BR for this (mayday with Task Forces).

First would be to define what a hit actually is so it is unambiguous. I'd assume that any hits that don't at least meaningfully crater the hull, or scrape off useful parts can be considered a "miss" even if they in fact hit the ship. So you might always hit the ship in reality at some range, but some shots for whatever reason cannot damage, and are "misses" as a game mechanic. This is OK within reason, or to disqualify some hits on the target that do no damage to minimize die rolls.

The to-hit vs damage. To-hit should be calibrated to be as realistic as possible, AND scaled to small targets. Meaningful damage should also scale well. It is absurd for 1 laser to do 1 hit damage, and 30 lasers to also do 1 hit damage. Example, you have a target that you can automatically hit in HG. Single laser is factor 2 in HG, base to-hit is 7+. For example we will have DMs set so it is 100% hit (+5 DM combo of target size, and relative computer). Same exact situation with a factor 9 laser, 30 weapons in battery. They both do 1 hit. Dumb, and no possible "subtle" reading makes any sense.

Clearly, though, 30 lasers have a better chance of getting at least 1 hit than 1 does, the trouble is they also have a chance at 30 hits.

My gut feeling for beams is that they should have a flat to-hit roll that is then modified. The base roll should be such that they can hit a static target virtually all the time.

So 2+ to hit for beams*, regardless of factor. We'll use lasers as the baseline, since they should always have the best to-hit of any direct fire weapon, period. (*this could go up a little, depending on what we do with the target size chart. We calibrate it so that a non-evading (agility 0) target of a particular size at a certain range is ALWAYS hit. So the below table can clearly change based on that somewhat.

Turret Beam fire 2+ to hit on 2d6
DMs:
-Agility
+relative computer size
+ weapon factor (more shots fired)
-X for range (per hex, or hexes/2, or something. Depends on game map scale)
+target size (make a new chart for this, scaled to cross-section of a sphere of Size dtons, 0 might be 1000 tons?)

Beam fire has no penetration table, penetration vs sand will be damage DMs.

Beam damage:
1d(factor) hits

so factor 1 does 1 hit.
factor 2 does 1-2 hits (1 hit on a 1-3, 2 on a 4-5 on d6)
factor 3 does 1-3 hits
...
factor 7 does 1d6+1 (2-7 hits)
factor 8 does 1d6+2 (3-8)
factor 9 does 1d6+3 (4-9)

DM -1 if sand deployed against the attack (sand will also be a DM on damage roll) (have another idea that might alter this...)

For the abstract system, the plan would be slightly MORE abstract than HG, so that incremental damage is abstracted (no rolls), and you look at critical hits.

Damage ideas next...
 
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To begin with stop spouting rubbish ;)

A size 0 agility 6 ship is easily hit - relative computer model DM remember.

Now if you really want to install a model 9 computer and the power plant required to power it in size 0 ship with a bridge be my guest.

I can think of better way to spend the MCr.

You also deliberately miss the damage potential of 30 lasers - mainly that grouped in a battery of factor 9 they can inflict critical hit on ships of size code less than 9.
 
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To begin with stop spouting rubbish ;)

A size 0 agility 6 ship is easily hit - relative computer model DM remember.

Now if you really want to install a model 9 computer and the power plant required to power it in size 0 ship with a bridge be my guest.

I can think of better way to spend the MCr.

Cost effective has nothing to do with the combat system, that is a design choice. You are right it is not a common design choice---then again neither were the design choices that always won TCS tourneys common. Design the combat system, then let the economics drive what actually is cost effective. Don't assume the combat result because "non one would build that" even though the rules allow it.

You also deliberately miss the damage potential of 30 lasers - mainly that grouped in a battery of factor 9 they can inflict critical hit on ships of size code less than 9.

I avoid that damage potential because it is flat out stupid.

10 ships with triple laser turrets fight 1 400 ton ship.

They get 10 regular damage rolls assuming all shots hit. Chances of a critical hit? Impossible.

Another 400 ton ship is attacked by a 1000 ton ship with 10 triples (fact 9). It shoots and does 1 damage hit, and 5 criticals.

The 2 scout ships were hit by EXACTLY the same weapons. Why is one wrecked, maybe vaporized, while the other has 30% fuel hits, ~48% weapon hits, and ~14% drive hits? Both in HG.

The target is hit by IDENTICAL numbers of identical lasers. 2 vastly different results (not even counting the fact that the to-hits mean in the 10 separate attacks there are fewer hits).

The battery concept is for gameplay, nothing else. The fact that they are fixed in design, means that you get weird results like this.

Criticals could be fixed by having a threshold for damage dealt in a short period of time (1 turn) that scale to ship sizes. Then 10 little ships attack 1 little ship, and do the same critical hit roll that one ship with 10 turrets can do.

Also, of a 700 ton ship takes 2 critical from 30 lasers, and a 800 ton ship takes 1, why does a 900 ton ship never take any criticals from ANY NUMBER of lasers? Why not a factor A laser battery? Factor T?
 
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A 200,000 ton BB has 1000 turrets.

For this we'll make them all laser triples.

Normally written as 100 batteries of factor 9. We'll assume equal computers, and a 10,000 ton CL as a target. Pick a middle of the road agility. Say 4?

To-hit for factor 9 is 4+, DMs are -5 at long range. 27.8% chance of a hit. So our CL can expect 28 damage rolls against it. bad luck for him.

Similar BB has 1000 triple turrets in 1000 batteries of factor 4. Base 6+ -5DM vs a sister CL. 8.3% of them hit. This poor CL can expect 83 damage rolls against him.

Almost 3X the damage. Identical attacks.

Why?
 
I avoid that damage potential because it is flat out stupid.

10 scout ships with triple laser turrets fight 1 scout scout ship.

They get 10 regular damage rolls assuming all shots hit. Chances of a critical hit? Impossible.

Another scout ship is attacked by a 1000 ton ship with 10 triples (fact 9). It shoots and does 1 damage hit, and 9 criticals.

The 2 scout ships were hit by EXACTLY the same weapons. Why is one wrecked, maybe vaporized, while the other has 30% fuel hits, ~48% weapon hits, and ~14% drive hits? Both in HG.

The target is hit by IDENTICAL numbers of identical lasers. 2 vastly different results (not even counting the fact that the to-hits mean in the 10 separate attacks there are fewer hits).

The battery concept is for gameplay, nothing else. The fact that they are fixed in design, means that you get weird results like this.

Criticals could be fixed by having a threshold for damage dealt in a short period of time (1 turn) that scale to ship sizes. Then 10 little ships attack 1 little ship, and do the same critical hit roll that one ship with 10 turrets can do.

Also, of a 700 ton ship takes 2 critical from 30 lasers, and a 900 ton ship takes 1, why does a 1000 ton ship never take any criticals from ANY NUMBER of lasers? Why not a factor A laser battery? Factor T?
Have you read the rules at all - or did you just choose a poor example ;)

A triple turret will have a factor of either 3 or 4 depending on TL.

So those 10 scouts will actually inflict 20 or 30 criticals on the single scout.

By the way - the 900t ship does not get any crits from being hit by factor 9 battery.
 
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What was that about...

I'm not saying YOU are stupid!

I'm saying the criticals rule is! I want to beat the crap out of this. If you think I am saying ANYTHING as a personal attack, I just wrote it poorly. That is NEVER my intent, unless someone posts "you're an idiot" to me first.

:) :) :) :) :)

Rule 1: This is fun talk over beers, if it seems otherwise, see rule 1.

You wouldn't be cherry picking your rules while demanding the opposite of others would you?

I'm of course cherry-picking. I'm suggesting rules to replace old ones.

A rule where identical attacks produce predictable, vastly different results is bad, IMHO.

Hence "constancy."

Does what I'm aiming for make sense?
 
Have you read the rules at all - or did you just choose a poor example ;)

A triple turret will have a factor of either 3 or 4 depending on TL.

So those 10 scouts will actually inflict 20 or 30 criticals on the single scout.

Right! My bad.

Change target to 400 tons then. Will edit.

Fixed now. Nothing changes except 5 criticals instead of 9. Target is still wrecked in 1 case, and damaged, possibly badly, in the other.
 
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I'm not saying YOU are stupid!

No worries there, not taken that way at all :)


I'm of course cherry-picking. I'm suggesting rules to replace old ones.

That's all well and good, but I find cherry picking rules is a personal experience matter, not one that leads to constancy or consistency. Everyone has differing interpretations based on background, what looks stupid to one player makes sense to another, and vice versa.

Hashing out ideas for improvements is all well and good, as long as everyone involved is open to reassessing long held notions and looking at the whole and the desired goal. I'm not sure everyone is on the same page there ;)


Does what I'm aiming for make sense?

The target is laudable, but I think we all have different weapons bearing and generally poor aim due to tunnel vision ;)
 
A 200,000 ton BB has 1000 turrets.

For this we'll make them all laser triples.

Normally written as 100 batteries of factor 9. We'll assume equal computers, and a 10,000 ton CL as a target. Pick a middle of the road agility. Say 4?

To-hit for factor 9 is 4+, DMs are -5 at long range. 27.8% chance of a hit. So our CL can expect 28 damage rolls against it. bad luck for him.

Similar BB has 1000 triple turrets in 1000 batteries of factor 4. Base 6+ -5DM vs a sister CL. 8.3% of them hit. This poor CL can expect 83 damage rolls against him.

Almost 3X the damage. Identical attacks.

Why?
Here's a good one to think about.

You have a 1000t ship

You have 10 triple laser turrets - 30 lasers

You choose to organise then as 3 factor 5 (or 6 depending on TL) batteries.

Rules legal but do you notice anything wrong?
 
The 900 was a typo, was supposed to be 800. I was first thinking of an example with one a round 1000, and then edited (badly).
 
Here's a good one to think about.

You have a 1000t ship

You have 10 triple laser turrets - 30 lasers

You choose to organise then as 3 factor 5 (or 6 depending on TL) batteries.

Rules legal but do you notice anything wrong?

Well, 10 triples in even batteries would have to be 5 triples in 2 batteries (factor 6-7), or 9 turrets in 3 batteries of 3, and 9 beams is not on the table.

The specifics go HG design rules are a different matter, but one given I have is that the base USP should work. If batteries need to be tweaked, less than ideal, but better than a ship redo. Ideally, I'd con sider a battery a fire control thing. Turrets are identical but they are grouped to address different targets. In a better design system, you'd have to allocate some small tonnage to each battery, so that it would be less efficient to have 1000 individual turrets. We're not messing with HG design ATM, though. I want CT stuff to just work.
 
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Lol - that's why I couldn't reply to the post where you said I was wrong =)

It has long been recognised that HG has some odd peculiarities - the battery composition rule is one.

It has also been an often suggested house rule that fighters or even escort class ships that operate in squadrons should be able to group their weapons into more effective batteries.

It's also odd that HG 1st edition had laser bay weapons, but they were dropped from 2nd edition.

And no idea at all why spinal laser weapons were never allowed until TNE.
 
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A 200,000 ton BB has 1000 turrets.

For this we'll make them all laser triples.

Normally written as 100 batteries of factor 9. We'll assume equal computers, and a 10,000 ton CL as a target. Pick a middle of the road agility. Say 4?

To-hit for factor 9 is 4+, DMs are -5 at long range. 27.8% chance of a hit. So our CL can expect 28 damage rolls against it. bad luck for him.

Similar BB has 1000 triple turrets in 1000 batteries of factor 4. Base 6+ -5DM vs a sister CL. 8.3% of them hit. This poor CL can expect 83 damage rolls against him.

Almost 3X the damage. Identical attacks.

Why?
Oh, one more thing.

If you have 1000 factor 4 batteries that's 1000 gunners you need instead of the 100 gunners for 100 factor 9 batteries.

That's a lot of staterooms to find.
 
It has long been recognised that HG has some odd peculiarities - the battery composition rule is one.

It has also been an often suggested house rule that fighters or even escort class ships that operate in squadrons should be able to group their weapons into more effective batteries.

It's also odd that HG 1st edition had laser bay weapons, but they were dropped from 2nd edition.

And no idea at all why spinal laser weapons were never allowed until TNE.

Abstraction, simplicity, limited page count, backwards compatibility, and other reasons mentioned all led to a bit of a mess. Though as noted, a mess that still makes for fun play.

Classic Traveller, the helicopter of RPGs, a large collection of parts playing together in unison.
 
Oh, one more thing.

If you have 1000 factor 4 batteries that's 1000 gunners you need instead of the 100 gunners for 100 factor 9 batteries.

That's a lot of staterooms to find.

No kidding. Again, economics will drive dumb ideas like I proposed in the example. Regardless, the combat and damage systems are what I'm concerned with, the economics will take care of that later. However many bolts of x-rays hitting should do roughly the same damage, regardless of how the batteries happen to be formulated. Dunno about robot rules, that could be in effect, too.

I agree with putting smaller ships into groupings for gameplay. Hugely sensible. The trouble being that they are still "spread out" compared to beam cress-sections. new rules should include this, but I'd make grouped fire less effective in some way (links between ships are at light speed lag, effectively making the computer a slower machine). A buddy who did SDI work said that they could be given Phasers as weapons, and the critical problem would still be there---making sure that all the Phasers didn't decide to overlap target priorities and shoot the same few "biggest threat" targets :) Least on anti-missile fire. All shooting at one ship is easier.
 
Abstraction, simplicity, limited page count, backwards compatibility, and other reasons mentioned all led to a bit of a mess. Though as noted, a mess that still makes for fun play.

Classic Traveller, the helicopter of RPGs, a large collection of parts playing together in unison.

I love the feel of traveller, hence the desire to use my "gearhead" muscles towards the universe I like, vs picking some other one.
 
Had dinner with a friend who is a nano physics guy, and sensors to catch single photons came up, and diverged into a discussion on distributed, phased array sensors being worked on. I of course immediately think about telescopes.

Made me want to put "computer" hits on the surface damage table under the notion that "computer" in HG includes all kinds of other electronics required to operate a starship (not just for fire control, but also navigation). The trouble is there is not a good way to reduce computers easily without rapidly making a ship combat ineffective. The neat thing about such a distributed sensor is that it degrades in a fairly linear way with lost elements. Massive sensor arrays as part of "computer" do a lot to help understand the ridiculous price of "computers" in HG. When you consider all the wiring, plus every sensor and control system, it makes more sense (more sense than "almost none" is still very little ;) ).

Nearly the entire hull could be covered.

Of course I've never been a fan of "relative computer" as a to-hit. I can see "computer" being a plus (better sensors, etc), but the enemy's computer, sensors, etc are not relevant to a fire control solution for my ship. I suppose instead of using an easy to-hit, the alternative is making them flat, and difficult, then add enough DMs to make it automatic for a target that should never be missed. In that case, computer factor could be a plus DM. Down side is that a 9 makes virtually any target a sure thing. Another solution (all this is trickier trying to stay as much as possible within a CT 2d6 dice system) would be to set the nominal to-hit such that computer factor is considered a zero DM at computer factor 5, say. Then a model 9 is a +4, a model 1 is a -4. That would be a base 6+ to-hit for a typical player ship, with a few more typical - DMs (range, target size), typical ship weapon to hits will be similar to HG.

It's more bookkeeping, but for RPG play at least I could see counting Hull hits, and every XX hits drop computer DM by 1. So a player ship could have it's computer intact, but suffer a -5 DM instead of -4 for having just a type 1. A "bis" model might negate the first such reduction. Not for fleet play, mind you.
 
You are once again making assumptions based on a flaw.

The computer difference DM represents lots of different thing as you say - prediction programs, evasion programs. electronic warfare, sensor capability etc.

It also represents a difference that I don't think you are considering - the difference in TLs.

For 2 ships of equal computer rating and TL they cancel out - but as soon as you have a TL imbalance the computer difference DM kicks in and represents the superiority of high TL systems vs low.

Note this is not the same as thinking about a face off between a destroyer built in the 1970s versus a destroyer built in 2012, a better comparison is between a WW2 destroyer and one built today.

HG models ship combat in Traveller at every TL from 9 to 15, and the TL makes a difference.
 
10 ships with triple laser turrets fight 1 400 ton ship.

They get 10 regular damage rolls assuming all shots hit. Chances of a critical hit? Impossible.

Another 400 ton ship is attacked by a 1000 ton ship with 10 triples (fact 9). It shoots and does 1 damage hit, and 5 criticals.

The 2 scout ships were hit by EXACTLY the same weapons. Why is one wrecked, maybe vaporized, while the other has 30% fuel hits, ~48% weapon hits, and ~14% drive hits? Both in HG.

The target is hit by IDENTICAL numbers of identical lasers.

But not from the same direction.

I thought it was 10 attacks from different directions hitting (if they hit) 10 different patches of hull, versus one concentrated attack where all 30 lasers hit the same point on the hull. _That's_ why the critical.

And that's why putting enough armor in the way eventually negates crits from all but MG's.
(Although spinal weapons can negate this yet again.)

Also, of a 700 ton ship takes 2 critical from 30 lasers, and a 800 ton ship takes 1, why does a 900 ton ship never take any criticals from ANY NUMBER of lasers? Why not a factor A laser battery? Factor T?

Now that's a much more reasonable question. In fact, I've seen fan-designed laser "spinal mounts" built using TNE rules. Primarily for PC-sized ships or small naval vessels such as destroyers, but why not? In HG, there's always been a huge leap in lethality from turret and bay weapons to spinal mounts; why not fill that gap with some lower-cost, less effective spinals? It would be interesting to see some of these designed for HG.
[Edit: looks like Mike beat me to it. ;)]

FWIW, my biggest problem with HG is that it focusses on ships that are above an beyond PC-level scale. If you are tooling around in a 200-, 400- or even 800-ton ship, and along comes a 20,000-ton "light" cruiser, well, that's all she wrote. Don't try running, you'll just die tired. (Power Projection also suffers from this, as it's based on HG designs. you can go some way to fixing it by giving ships more hit points (hull boxes) at lower sizes, then tapering off back to printed-rule-level above 1000 tons or so).

Anyway, that's not what HG is for. If you want PC-scale action (extended fights, manuvering, and Ship Tactics), use Bk 2 or mayday. I'll be interested to see wht you come up with.
 
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