Imperial Authority

[LeperColony]

Does the emperor have authority over an ordinary resident of the Imperium?

Suppose I am a resident of a typical planet in the Imperium. This planet has its own World Government, to which I am subject. There are also various Imperium-wide regulations (nuke ban, psionic ban, etc) that I must also obey. But do I owe direct allegiance to the emperor? Am I bound to obey his specific commands?

One day I am minding my own business, crossing the street. The emperor is touring my world, and he orders me to carry his suitcase.

Do I have to?

 

[MThompson016]

Depends on the world, and the sort of man the Emperor is. If it's a high Law Level world where the Imperial nobility is closely aligned to the planetary government, then I think it would be possible.

Lucan in the MegaTraveller continuity would try to order people anything, if he ever left the Palace. Strephon, I don't think so, as he's generally written as a Good (or at least decent) Emperor.

With the nature of the Imperium, and how chains of command work, I would say the only people who owe direct allegiance to the Emperor are military personnel, the nobility, and the Imperial bureaucracy.

Generally, I don't think the Emperor would give that sort of order to a citizen. Odds are there are enough footmen/servants travelling with him to avoid this situation.

 

[LeperColony]

Generally, I don't think the Emperor would give that sort of order to a citizen. Odds are there are enough footmen/servants travelling with him to avoid this situation.

That's not the point. The question is can he? What sort of authority does he have over an individual civilian who doesn't live on a planet governed by the Imperium?

 

[Quint]

Does the emperor have authority over an ordinary resident of the Imperium?

Suppose I am a resident of a typical planet in the Imperium. This planet has its own World Government, to which I am subject. There are also various Imperium-wide regulations (nuke ban, psionic ban, etc) that I must also obey. But do I owe direct allegiance to the emperor? Am I bound to obey his specific commands?

One day I am minding my own business, crossing the street. The emperor is touring my world, and he orders me to carry his suitcase.

Do I have to?

Given the powers and wording of Imperial Edict 97, and the general powers of an Imperial Warrant, I would suggest that the Emperor does, in fact, have direct authority and the ability to command over all Imperial Citizens. The Imperium is an essentially absolute imperial sovereignty not a republic or representative democracy - see the language of the Warrant of Restoration.

D.

 

[Limburger59]

Generally, I don't think the Emperor would give that sort of order to a citizen. Odds are there are enough footmen/servants travelling with him to avoid this situation.

Pickup that suitcase and you'll be in trouble with a much more powerful entity than the Emperor... the Public Sector Employee's Union

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on line of sight, and the cube root inverse of the exact distance between subject and crown.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Yes, the Emperor has authority through the local duke/dukes/archdukes, the Navy, the Marines, the Army, and all the other "long arms" of the Third Imperium.

He probably also appears in Tri-D ads, public notices, and a variety of other media.

Direct as in personal, probably not.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Spartan159]

Depends on line of sight, and the cube root inverse of the exact distance between subject and crown.

Mathematical formulae and citation please.

 

[robject]

Replace with "Roman Emperor", "Emperor of Japan", "Shah of Iran", "Arthur, King of the Britons" ("how can you tell he's the king?"...)

...and it seems reasonable that if said person wanted you to carry his luggage, you could refuse once, but not twice, if you get my drift.

 

[mike wightman]

Does the emperor have authority over an ordinary resident of the Imperium?

Your first problem - defining what an ordinary citizen of the Imperium is, what rights they have etc.

Suppose I am a resident of a typical planet in the Imperium.

Next problem - define a typical planet. Remember the Spinward Marches was originally a playground to show how frontier worlds far from a remote but powerful central government offered adventure. All these years later the core worlds and how they function are only just starting to be detailed in Marc's novel.

This planet has its own World Government, to which I am subject. There are also various Imperium-wide regulations (nuke ban, psionic ban, etc) that I must also obey. But do I owe direct allegiance to the emperor? Am I bound to obey his specific commands?

Have you sworn personal allegiance to him? Is there an oath everyone takes on every Imperium member world? I very much doubt it. The further you get from the Imperial core worlds the further you are from direct imperial rule.

One day I am minding my own business, crossing the street. The emperor is touring my world, and he orders me to carry his suitcase.

Do I have to?

Are you a member of the Ine Givar...

 

[DickNervous]

Given the powers and wording of Imperial Edict 97, and the general powers of an Imperial Warrant, I would suggest that the Emperor does, in fact, have direct authority and the ability to command over all Imperial Citizens. The Imperium is an essentially absolute imperial sovereignty not a republic or representative democracy - see the language of the Warrant of Restoration.

D.

I agree with this. The Emperor DOES have the authority so if he says to someone "jump" they should be 2' in the air by the time they ask "How high?" As for whether or not he/she would ever exercise that authority for something mundane, at least in person, is a completely different question.

If you want some good examples, just read Agent of the Imperium.

 

[robject]

Have you sworn personal allegiance to him? Is there an oath everyone takes on every Imperium member world? I very much doubt it. The further you get from the Imperial core worlds the further you are from direct imperial rule.

But this makes me think of the romanticized feudalism of medieval (?) Europe. I don't want to get into social contract theory, but surely the knights had the implicit fealty of their peasants, as the king had theirs, probably explicitly, with the alternative being conflict.

At a minimum, refusal would be viewed by all as a political statement. It might involve criminal charges. It could involve treason. Probably the situation is nuanced and different everywhere.

 

[aramis]

But this makes me think of the romanticized feudalism of medieval (?) Europe. I don't want to get into social contract theory, but surely the knights had the implicit fealty of their peasants, as the king had theirs, probably explicitly, with the alternative being conflict.

At a minimum, refusal would be viewed by all as a political statement. It might involve criminal charges. It could involve treason. Probably the situation is nuanced and different everywhere.

Medieval feudalism was built on serfdom.
The social classes of feudalism can roughly be said to be:
Royals
Nobles
Gentry
Citizens
Peasants
Serfs
Slaves

• Royals are Kings,, princes, some archdukes, grand dukes, grand counts... the sovereign and those in direct line to the throne. Except for the sovereign, all are personal titles and not directly heritable. In some cases, revert to nobility upon death of the sovereign; in others, retain the title until death, but their children don't.
• Nobles are Barons and their families; A Baron (collective term including Barons, Viscounts, Counts/Earls/Jarls, Dukes, and some non-royal archdukes) hold land by virtue of an oath to a sovereign - without swearing the oath, the heir presumptive may not legally inherit. Technically, does not own the land.
• Gentry - knights and their families, and those persons whose grandparents were Barons but whose parents were not.
• Citizens - technically, only lived in chartered cities. Owed their fealty to the city, not a person, except for a few cities which were direct noble estates. The city as a whole had specified rights granted by the crown, in a written charter. Still, usually owed service to church and city.
• Peasants - technically, only free persons who were neither serf nor slave. Only one right really exists for them: to leave if they choose. Wherever they go, however they owed tax to noble and church, and through the noble to the sovereign, and service to noble and church. Generally, when owed service becomes to onerous, they leave.
• Serfs - like peasants, but without right to leave. Even moving between villages required permission.
• Slaves - no rights whatever.

Collectively, subjects refers to Citizens, Peasants, Serfs, and untitled/unlanded gentry. All citizens are subjects, but not all subjects are citizens.

Traveller has royals (Soc G+), nobles (C to g), gentry (A-c), and citizens (9-)...
with specified rights by the various warrants.
We have no clear enumeration of all the rights of Imperial Citizens, but we do know that, in T4, it's explicit that Citizenship isn't earned, but is inherent in being a non-robotic non-belligerant sophont in the Imperium's claimed space.

 

[Garnfellow]

Does the emperor have authority over an ordinary resident of the Imperium?

Suppose I am a resident of a typical planet in the Imperium. This planet has its own World Government, to which I am subject. There are also various Imperium-wide regulations (nuke ban, psionic ban, etc) that I must also obey. But do I owe direct allegiance to the emperor? Am I bound to obey his specific commands?

One day I am minding my own business, crossing the street. The emperor is touring my world, and he orders me to carry his suitcase.

Do I have to?

I think I'm going to go ahead and disagree with everyone else in this thread (never a good move) and argue that no, the Emperor has no more direct legal ability to order you to carry his suitcase than the President of the United States has.

Article I of the Warrant of Restoration declares that "The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any member world. Instead, the purpose of the Imperium shall be to provide for the Defense of all of the member worlds as a group, and to bring the Rule of Law to the spaces between worlds. No interference with local law or custom is contemplated, except where such local law or custom is in conflict with Imperial Law" (Marc Miller's Milieu 0 Campaign, page 83).

Now, there are plenty of non-legal reasons why you would want to obey such an order with great dispatch. Social niceties, for example -- the local planetary authorities would likely be humiliated by such disrespect, and they might be able to legally compel you do what the Emperor commands.

And there are practical reasons, such as not wanting the Marine Guard to break your spindly provincial arms. But unless there is something written into your planet's local code, I don't think you are obligated to heed such a request.

I do see that Article VIII allows the Imperium to unilaterally "alter the deal," but pulling a Art VIII over a suitcase seems like overkill.

 

[LeperColony]

I think I'm going to go ahead and disagree with everyone else in this thread (never a good move) and argue that no, the Emperor has no more direct legal ability to order you to carry his suitcase than the President of the United States has.

Article I of the Warrant of Restoration declares that "The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any member world. Instead, the purpose of the Imperium shall be to provide for the Defense of all of the member worlds as a group, and to bring the Rule of Law to the spaces between worlds. No interference with local law or custom is contemplated, except where such local law or custom is in conflict with Imperial Law" (Marc Miller's Milieu 0 Campaign, page 83).

Now, there are plenty of non-legal reasons why you would want to obey such an order with great dispatch. Social niceties, for example -- the local planetary authorities would likely be humiliated by such disrespect, and they might be able to legally compel you do what the Emperor commands.

And there are practical reasons, such as not wanting the Marine Guard to break your spindly provincial arms. But unless there is something written into your planet's local code, I don't think you are obligated to heed such a request.

This aligns more closely with how I understand the OTU to operate. Unless I am in Imperial service, or by virtue of my person (as nobility) or my profession somehow within the areas of responsibility reserved by the Imperium, I don't see how the emperor has direct personal authority over me as an individual citizen.

Now, much like the President of the United States, there are workarounds. For instance, the president could draft me into military service, or declare martial law, and I'm assuming similar executive powers belong to the Imperial government.

As other people have mentioned, custom (and common courtesy) may also operate to provide the emperor with practical authority he may not have in legal terms.

 

[Quint]

I think I'm going to go ahead and disagree with everyone else in this thread (never a good move) and argue that no, the Emperor has no more direct legal ability to order you to carry his suitcase than the President of the United States has.

Article I of the Warrant of Restoration declares that "The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any member world. Instead, the purpose of the Imperium shall be to provide for the Defense of all of the member worlds as a group, and to bring the Rule of Law to the spaces between worlds. No interference with local law or custom is contemplated, except where such local law or custom is in conflict with Imperial Law" (Marc Miller's Milieu 0 Campaign, page 83).

Now, there are plenty of non-legal reasons why you would want to obey such an order with great dispatch. Social niceties, for example -- the local planetary authorities would likely be humiliated by such disrespect, and they might be able to legally compel you do what the Emperor commands.

And there are practical reasons, such as not wanting the Marine Guard to break your spindly provincial arms. But unless there is something written into your planet's local code, I don't think you are obligated to heed such a request.

Well...

Let's look at the entirety of Article I:

"The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any member world. Instead, the purpose of the Imperium shall be to provide for the Defense of all of the member worlds as a group, and to bring the Rule of Law to the spaces between worlds. No interference with local law or custom is contemplated, except where such local law or custom is in conflict with Imperial Law.

Any world may, through a recognized Representative, proclaim allegiance to the Imperium, and in so doing, such world shall become a Member of the Imperium, equal in status to all other members of the Imperium. Member worlds shall govern themselves as they see proper, provided that such government does not violate Imperial laws.

The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it sees fit Governmental Entities superior to the member worlds but subordinate to the Imperium. This shall include the power to abolish said entities as the Imperium sees fit.

The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it sees fit Bureaus and Agencies to carry out and enforce the Imperial will. This shall include the power to abolish said bureaus and agencies as the Imperium sees fit.

The Imperium considers as citizens any living recognized sentient creature native to or naturalized by a member world of the Imperium, or any living recognized sentient creature swearing fealty to the Imperium directly. No immunity, protection, right, or privilege granted by the Imperium to a Citizen of the Imperium may be abridged or denied by any member world."

Semi-Humorous Translation - We're not going to bothering ruling worlds directly, we'll let worlds rule themselves, but we will set up organizations to make sure that they are run the way we like and according to our laws.

and then skip to the end, with Article 8 "Acknowledgement of Imperial Power" -

"Notwithstanding any provisions to the contrary contained in this document or in subsequent Imperial actions, the Imperium, for the purpose of ensuring its continued safety and stability, reserves to itself the power to unilaterally enact changes in any or all aspects of the relationship between itself and any member world or citizen."

Translation - We can change virtually any law (perhaps only excluding those specific points mention on the Warrant of Restoration itself) and all aspects of it with world or any citizen if we decide it's best for the Imperium.

And just in case, we need to define "the Imperium" it's the Emperor - see Article II, that is who holds the Powers of the Imperium, not anyone else. All power and authority flow from the Emperor, not the worlds, not the Moot, not the citizens.

There might be some argument that the mere word of the Emperor is not automatic law (that requiring the advice and counsel of the Moot beforehand) but the authority to compel obedience is not the same thing as law - see Imperial Warrants.

Unless, of course, you want to argue that the Emperor's words and instructions, carry less weight than an Imperial Warrant..?

The Imperium is not a democracy, it's not even close. The only check on the Emperor is the Moot, which is comprised only of people that he appoints. This check is not even and "advice and consent" it is "advice and counsel" - they only have two and only two exercises of authority and power - confirming the Imperial Heir as Emperor (or in the very, very rare instance of there being no heir, picking the next Emperor) and dissolving the whole of the Imperium.

The Emperor decides, or delegates the decision to someone else. Without the Emperor, the Imperium cannot function or exist - and all citizens and worlds must follow the directives of the Emperor while at the same time having no, repeat, NO method for checking that authority and power because that is reserved for the Moot and only the Moot. There is not any mechanism for checking to make sure that an order or directive is for the good of the Imperium.

Agent's with a Warrant are demonstrated to have the power of life and death over citzens and worlds and can order the most mundane of acts (make me a coat) with the assurance that it will be followed because they speak with the voice of the Emperor.

D.

 

[atpollard]

While I recognize that the discussion is mostly about hypothetical powers, I guess both sides have been articulated better than I could.

Therefore, I offer a more personal observation. As a US citizen, the Queen of England has no power to compel me to carry her suitcase. However, If the Queen of England visited and ordered me to carry her suitcase, I probably would. Chances are wherever I am carrying her suitcase is more interesting than wherever I was on my way to anyway.

 

[Garnfellow]

I would heartily agree that an Emperor or someone carrying an Imperial Warrant has essentially unlimited power over all Imperial institutions including the military, the ministries, and the nobility. An Emperor could certainly command an archduke, admiral, or the Minster of Justice to carry his luggage anywhere, and I would assume this authority would extend to any Imperial citizen on board an Imperial ship or occupying an Imperial facility.

Agent's with a Warrant are demonstrated to have the power of life and death over citzens and worlds and can order the most mundane of acts (make me a coat) with the assurance that it will be followed because they speak with the voice of the Emperor.

I don't believe there is any example in Agent of the agent having direct legal authority over planetary governments or citizens while on their sovereign world.

The agent's warrant gave him essentially unlimited authority over any and all Imperial resources, most notably the navy and marines, and he used those mechanisms to enforce his will. He can command a marine to shoot an admiral, for example, or an admiral to glass a world, but he does not command a planetary general to shoot a planetary despot or decommission a starport.

The agent's actions show us the sort of event that justifies invoking Article VIII: clear and imminent threats to the Imperium. Agent also shows us that the Warrant is only to be used under a very specific set of qualifying conditions.

Short of that, an Emperor seems hard pressed to Article VIII a planetary valet.

 

[Reban]

Of course the Emperor who orders a random sophont to carry the Imperial suitcase is not likely to last as long as an Emperor who convinces said random sophont that it is in his best interests and the best interests of the whole Imperium that he carries the Imperial suitcase.

In other words the Emperors style of rule is a lot more important than the letter of the law.

I think the phrase applicable to Traveller is 'A rule of Man not Laws'?

 

[Quint]

I would heartily agree that an Emperor or someone carrying an Imperial Warrant has essentially unlimited power over all Imperial institutions including the military, the ministries, and the nobility. An Emperor could certainly command an archduke, admiral, or the Minster of Justice to carry his luggage anywhere, and I would assume this authority would extend to any Imperial citizen on board an Imperial ship or occupying an Imperial facility.

I don't believe there is any example in Agent of the agent having direct legal authority over planetary governments or citizens while on their sovereign world.

Back to Article 1 - "The Imperium considers as citizens any living recognized sentient creature native to or naturalized by a member world of the Imperium, or any living recognized sentient creature swearing fealty to the Imperium directly."

The sovereignty of a world exists only where it does not conflict with Imperial Law, which is embodied in the word and person of the Emperor (or his designates). The governance of worlds is at the mercy of the Emperor because he can create any law he or she wants and the only recourse of the Moot is to dissolve the Imperium if they don't like how things are going. The Emperor can create and dissolve entire organizations at will in order to enforce "Imperial will" not, significantly I would suggest, "Imperial law".

The issue is not if the Imperial will trumps individual or planetary sovereignty, the point is that the Imperium has decided that it is more efficient for individual worlds, when travel is at the speed of jump, to govern themselves and has set that up as the default for membership - except where Imperial interests trump local ones.

If you read Article VII it has more verbage about starports and like areas of extra-territoriality are bastions of Imperial power and authority - rather than a discussion of how Imperial power is limited there. In fact, in combination with Article IV, I expect arguments have been made that *any* restriction of access to the starport/startown is a restriction of free trade - probably with counter-arguments that "members" refers to worlds while citizen refers to individuals, blah, blah, blah...

Again, local and individual sovereignty exists at the mercy of the Emperor not in spite of or in challange to the authority of the Emperor.

That might not be pretty or palatable to 20th century political morals or ethics, but the Warrant of Restoration is pretty black-and-white when it comes to enumerating rights and powers.

There is an individual right to freedom from chattel slavery and to citizenship.
There is a member's right to free trade and a freedom from piracy and smuggling (the latter important because it supports the general sovereignty of member states to 'run their own house')
There are general right's to a common standardized currency, standards of measures for trade, and a single measure of time.
Nobles have the right to sit on the Moot which in turn has the right to confirm the Emperor on ascension, and to dissolve the Imperium if they choose.

There is an implied but not well delineated right to the rule of law - but where it is clear that the Emperors will is the foundation of said laws.

D.