Inside those Standard Turrets

[Ref00000]

Let's talk turrets.
a Standard Single Missile turret, is to my recollection, provided with a ready to fire rack of three standard missiles, a gang-rack of three 'reloads' and a gunner's couch.

likewise a Standard Sandcaster is said to hold Three Rounds, and I also assume a ready rack of three more- but lets explore what it means when a PC is dealing with firing drills, grabbing reloads from ship's stores, (or maybe the cargo hold, not even on the same deck) and the usual mayhem.
I always describe them as 'a five-gallon bucket, more or less' and, incidentally related, a 'standard missile' in the packing tube is 'a bit over a meter long, as big around as a one-gallon-paint-can-plus-a-bit, and weighing slightly less than 50lbs.'
these are descriptive benchmarks that allow for fast narration and provide Players with a 'handle' almost anyone can grab onto for a solid mental picture of 'what "reloading the turret" actually means' for their PC's activity level and actions.
one of the features I've added on some 'militarized' ship designs in the past is 'autoloaders' or even just 'a dedicated conveyer of missiles or sandcaster rounds' from stores to turret.
thoughts?

 

[Condottiere]

Turrets are involved in hammerspace physics in Mongoose. Torpedo barbettes are even less logical.

 

[Amber Chancer]

I've long since abandoned the 1940s "gunner in turret" image of the whole thing.

The actual loading and firing is all automated. The gunner is in some remote location in the ship, playing space invaders with his auto-app for fixing the target and firing the ordnance.

 

[BlackBat242]

According to CT the turret holds "3 reloads per launcher". So a triple missile turret holds 12 missiles ([1+3]X3).

The same applies for sandcasters.

 

[mike wightman]

Depends on where you read the rules

In CT LBB2 '81 it specifies a triple turret with three missile racks has 9 missiles total.

In addition to those there are the rules in the missiles special supplement which gives 1 ready missile plus 2 reloads per rack and a further capacity of 12 stored in the turret.

 

[BlackBat242]

AH, that's where I got the "12 in a triple turret from"... the reserve storage.

9 in the launchers/auto-reloaders, and then 12 racked reloads that the gunner has to place in the reloader.

 

[Patron Zero]

I've always seen the turrets as unmanned and remote-operated much like those on a WWII-era B-29 bomber, that considered then such should add to the 'damage table' as 'linkage lost-destroyed'. To prevent loss of said weapons due to combat damage, a secondary weapons control panel-console is usually found in engineering.

As to missiles, IMTU such ordnance are fired from fixed 'tubes' in the ship's hull much like a Polaris submarine, using the 'rule' of one ready-three reloads available, so said 'four-pack' being essentially a 1.5M cube that's modular and easily serviced.

Sandcasters are more like smoke dischargers on modern day armor and fire from similar external mountings on the vessel's exterior, in appearance look somewhat like flare-chaff dispensers in operation. Mind missiles can be 'armed' to carry a sandcaster payload rather than a more traditional warhead.

 

[pendragonman]

As to missiles, IMTU such ordnance are fired from fixed 'tubes' in the ship's hull much like a Polaris submarine, using the 'rule' of one ready-three reloads available, so said 'four-pack' being essentially a 1.5M cube that's modular and easily serviced.

Or like the box launchers on modern warships. Plug and play, not serviceable without a space walk.

 

[Patron Zero]

Or like the box launchers on modern warships. Plug and play, not serviceable without a space walk.

That might depend on if said missile 'packs' are accessible from within the hull, say adjacent to a cargo bay or other interior compartment. That said, the issue of having to 'suit-up' might still be a concern depending on if the missile 'pack' location had an exterior hatch that seals for such servicing.

Also another thought if I may.

I can see 'fixed' gun mounts on dedicated naval vessels but perhaps on civilian-commercial starships turrets are deployable affairs, being retracted and stowed inside the hull unless powered-up and ready for action.

That concept might bring more peace of mind to starports and other facilities uncomfortable with the potential of a docked-landed vessel opening fire or experiencing a weapons system 'malfunction'. Also a 'guns-holstered' policy makes for less potential confrontations in the crowded space in-around such locations.

And, as an accepted 'protocol', non-military starships might have to be equipped with such a 'fail-safe' feature allowing a third-party to remotely stand-down the vessel's weaponry. Not a popular idea but it would make routine inspections by customs officials or naval patrols less tense for all involved.

 

[flykiller]

I have various turret systems graphed out on the third page of the "deckplan vignettes" thread below. one shows a missile/sand magazine behind a turret along with the means of reloading it.

 

[SpaceBadger]

I can see 'fixed' gun mounts on dedicated naval vessels but perhaps on civilian-commercial starships turrets are deployable affairs, being retracted and stowed inside the hull unless powered-up and ready for action.

That concept might bring more peace of mind to starports and other facilities uncomfortable with the potential of a docked-landed vessel opening fire or experiencing a weapons system 'malfunction'. Also a 'guns-holstered' policy makes for less potential confrontations in the crowded space in-around such locations.

And, as an accepted 'protocol', non-military starships might have to be equipped with such a 'fail-safe' feature allowing a third-party to remotely stand-down the vessel's weaponry. Not a popular idea but it would make routine inspections by customs officials or naval patrols less tense for all involved.

I like the "civilians are required to use pop-turrets" idea as a nice solution to previous discussion about "weapons sealed" in civilized systems.

As discussed in that thread, the idea of allowing third parties any control over ship's systems was rather unpopular.

 

[Ref00000]

so, ok, let's think this through.

your numbers for ammo are basically what I said in my OP.
I was assuming 'one reload' of three, per launcher in turret.
{let's maybe just talk 'missiles or sand', to keep it in line with 'adventure class ships'}
so, yeah, a triple turret has three rounds per launcher, plus Two full reloads for each? that means a 'single turret' holds 9rds. (before someone has to go get more) 3 in the launcher, two load out racks of 3= 9
do you say then that a triple turret holds 36 rds.? 3x3 loaded and (2x3)x3 in reloads? and still 'fits on the same hardpoint?
I propose the intent of what we are talking about is;
a single, double, or triple turret, sand or missile, holds a maximum of 3 loaded rounds per launcher. to a maximum of 9. if it's a single weapon, the 'extra space is taken up as 'reloads'?

:CoW:

 

[Ref00000]

as for gunner's positions in the turrets

this is an 'optional' feature, or a design that is, or is not supported on a case by case basis.
Aslan for instance, seem to use this mode, and I fully support the idea of an Aslan male, sitting at the guns roaring defiance and pounding ruggedized, simplified controls. I see a female operating the same turret's mirror, on the opposite side of the ship, from her wrist-comp with targeting software, while operating a sensor station for both turrets.
given that vargr have been known to strap themselves to the front of g-racers? I have no trouble imagining a corsair ship having manned err dogged, positions.

 

[Ref00000]

as for, 'you can only reload it with a spacewalk'?

yeah, that makes no sense. I get that that might be a design you -could use-. but who would?

 

[BillDowns]

your numbers for ammo are basically what I said in my OP.
I was assuming 'one reload' of three, per launcher in turret.
{let's maybe just talk 'missiles or sand', to keep it in line with 'adventure class ships'}
so, yeah, a triple turret has three rounds per launcher, plus Two full reloads for each? that means a 'single turret' holds 9rds. (before someone has to go get more) 3 in the launcher, two load out racks of 3= 9
do you say then that a triple turret holds 36 rds.? 3x3 loaded and (2x3)x3 in reloads? and still 'fits on the same hardpoint?
I propose the intent of what we are talking about is;
a single, double, or triple turret, sand or missile, holds a maximum of 3 loaded rounds per launcher. to a maximum of 9. if it's a single weapon, the 'extra space is taken up as 'reloads'?

:CoW:

No, one ready with two in the loader = three missiles per launcher. Triple turret = 9 missiles total.

 

[atpollard]

No, one ready with two in the loader = three missiles per launcher. Triple turret = 9 missiles total.

Exactly.
And once all three missiles are fired, the launcher needs to be manually reloaded.
Wouldn't it be handy if the turret had a gunner near rather than running the length of the ship to get to the turret to reload those launchers?

 

[Patron Zero]

Exactly. And once all three missiles are fired, the launcher needs to be manually reloaded. .....

Is there a canon rule against a missile turret having an auto-reload capacity, such relieving the gunner of that labor ?

 

[atpollard]

Is there a canon rule against a missile turret having an auto-reload capacity, such relieving the gunner of that labor ?

The answer is probably rules edition dependent.

"Reloading: Each launcher (sand or missile) has an inherent capacity for three missiles or canisters. This means that a triple turret with three missile launchers has a total of 9 missiles in ready position.
When a launcher's missiles or canisters are exhausted, it may be reloaded by the turret's gunner in one turn. Reloading three launchers would take three turns. A gunner engaged in reloading is unable to fire other weaponry in the turret."

For my 2 cents ... I have no problem with adding autoloaders subject to this caveat:
I play Classic Traveller, and in CT a gunner reloading the racks manually is assumed to be the normal condition. So adding an autoloader to a triple turret certainly seems reasonable, but adding an autoloader that costs nothing and takes up no room seems less reasonable. Adding an autoloader that magically teleports the missiles from wherever in the cargo hold they happen to be stored today, into the turret seems unreasonable.

Strictly IMTU, but I assume manual loaders to be standard for civilian ships and auto-loaders to be assumed for military ships ... so having an autoloader on a civilian ship is possible, but will attract the sort of inspection questions and issues that mounting a 50 caliber machine gun on your fishing boat would attract in the real world.

 

[Vladika]

mounting a 50 caliber machine gun on your fishing boat would attract in the real world.

Just as an interesting aside, that is exactly what the USN gave to Ernest Hemingway (2 x .50 cals plus a case of grenades) if he promised to go away, leave them alone, and play nice with German Subs off Cuba.:devil:

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/08/11/the-hemingway-you-didnt-know-papas-adventures/

Hemingway the Nazi Submarine Hunter

Yes, you read that right. For nearly a year during World War II, Ernest Hemingway converted his 38 foot fishing boat Pilar into a Nazi submarine hunting ship in disguise. Coordinating with the Havana branch of the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence, Hemingway loaded the Pilar down with heavy artillery and small arms alike, all the while maintaining the outward appearance of a standard fishing vessel. He filled the Pilar with friends interested in being a part of the mission, and they carried out daily patrols in the waters off Cuba. The goal was to look like a regular fishing vessel so that a Nazi sub would surface and attempt to board them. The U.S. navy regularly used such tactics, the vessels being known as Q-Ships, in an attempt to draw Nazi subs to the surface. Once a sub surfaced, the Q-Ships would quickly unveil their hidden firepower and hopefully sink the sub. Eventually the FBI took over Caribbean counter-espionage, and while the Pilar and her crew never fired on an enemy sub, it was adventure of the highest sort nonetheless.

 

[Ref00000]

heh. Hemingway. that guy.

as a former Key West resident, dockmaster, and associate of actual pirates and assorted local characters of long standing, I can say his 'legend' has very little to do with the actual man, and locals knew him better than that.
an overrated miserable human.
used to try and punch out random guys on Duvall St.
just an aside.
'history often bears little resemblance to reality'
-me.