Just got the Core Rulebook for MGT...

[yamsi3467]

Hi, all...

I just got my copy of the Core Rules for MGT, and I was looking at the World Creation section. When I got to the starport rules, on page 178 they mention downport and hightport (which I remember from the CT rules and supplements). The old CT rules state how do determine if a world has just a downport or both a downport and highport. All the MGT core rules say on the subject is that if population and tech level warrants it a planet will have a highport (paraphrasing). Is there something concrete and less vague about this that I am just missing?

Yamsi

 

[HiverLord]

I don't have the MGT rulebooks, but this is how I interpret it. (Take that for what it's worth, of course )

Any Starport of B or A class automatically has a highport if there are more than a few people on the planet. (In some cases, there may ONLY be a highport, but these tend to be very rare cases, I'd think).
Any C starport would have a highport only if the local population is at least 10million+, or if the planet has a lot of shipping (the world is predominantly agricultural or mining, and ships a lot of product off-planet, for instance.)

Also, planets with C+ starports which, in the referee's determination, are trying to limit offworlder contact with the local population (military rule, overbearing religious dictatorships, and the like), would tend to have one as well.

Hope this helps!

 

[foxx]

I might be committing heresy by mentioning it here, but Gurps Traveller Starports has a section on them that states:

"Almost all Class IV and V [A] starports have an orbital facility. Most Class III [C] starports at TL8 [8] and above will have a highport. The highport serves primarily bulk, container, and LASH cargo, as well as transient passenger traffic." p60, Gurps Starports.

I would also think that a highport would be common for worlds with the various toxic atmosphere types or other UWP stats that would deter setting up a downport.

 

[Dragoner]

Logically, all starports that could, would have a highport to handle the freight and traffic of unstreamlined ships.

 

[far-trader]

Logically, all starports that could, would have a highport to handle the freight and traffic of unstreamlined ships.

Presuming all starports would see unstreamlined ship traffic sufficient to warrant it.

I don't recall a CT... actually any edition except GT, that specified where one would find high or down ports. Could be I'm just drawing a blank on it.

I'm sure I've noted house rules somewhere, likely based on Starport Type as others have, on the presumption (rightly so imo) that the better the starport the better the support and the more traffic it has, for whatever reason. I imagine MTU broke down something like:

Class A - Highport and Downport (and later added Outport - aka 100d transfer port)

Class B - Highport and Downport (just not enough traffic to warrant a separate Outport)

Class C - Downport (too off the regular runs to cater to unstreamlined ships, you better have your own small craft if you show up here in one)

Class D - "You call this a Starport?!" Yes it is technically a Downport but man if you expect anything better than poor surly service you are in for a rude awakening :devil:

 

[Jame]

I might be committing heresy by mentioning it here, but Gurps Traveller Starports has a section on them that states:

"Almost all Class IV and V [A] starports have an orbital facility. Most Class III [C] starports at TL8 [8] and above will have a highport. The highport serves primarily bulk, container, and LASH cargo, as well as transient passenger traffic." p60, Gurps Starports.

I would also think that a highport would be common for worlds with the various toxic atmosphere types or other UWP stats that would deter setting up a downport.

I tend to go with the GT definition, though I generally say that C ports also have refined fuel, no-overhaul repairs and a shipyard for small craft up to 200 tons.

 

[RandyB]

Presuming all starports would see unstreamlined ship traffic sufficient to warrant it.

I don't recall a CT... actually any edition except GT, that specified where one would find high or down ports. Could be I'm just drawing a blank on it.

I'm sure I've noted house rules somewhere, likely based on Starport Type as others have, on the presumption (rightly so imo) that the better the starport the better the support and the more traffic it has, for whatever reason. I imagine MTU broke down something like:

Class A - Highport and Downport (and later added Outport - aka 100d transfer port)

Class B - Highport and Downport (just not enough traffic to warrant a separate Outport)

Class C - Downport (too off the regular runs to cater to unstreamlined ships, you better have your own small craft if you show up here in one)

Class D - "You call this a Starport?!" Yes it is technically a Downport but man if you expect anything better than poor surly service you are in for a rude awakening :devil:

[tangent] Outport? That's a new one on me, and one that I like. However, depending on the physics of Jump, how would you determine at which point on the 100D circle (assuming orbital plane; if not, sphere) to place the Outport? [/tangent]

 

[far-trader]

Outport? That's a new one on me, and one that I like.

It's been much discussed now and then, here and there. Though this might be the first time it's been called Outport

Basically by eliminating the need to maneuver between the mainworld and the 100d mark a lot of time can be saved over the year. Especially for larger mainworlds or if one chooses to factor some stellar effect.

However, depending on the physics of Jump, how would you determine at which point on the 100D circle (assuming orbital plane; if not, sphere) to place the Outport?

While named singularly, like Highport and Downport, there may in fact be more than one. It would be dependent on the direction of the traffic that warrants it. If the need is only between two systems then only one Outport would be needed, and it would be relatively stationary (orbiting so to speak) between the two.

Outports would mostly be used only by large shippers, multi Kton transports, quite possibly without any maneuver drive and probably much like a commercial variant of a Battle Rider/Tender setup. A large jump frame hauling separate cargo ships (or even just cargo containers) to be taken by tug to the world, or transferred for further destinations. To take full advantage of the system requires regular traffic of high volume and long in system travel times. Loads need to be ready to go when eachTender arrives so it can be swiftly on it's way fully loaded while the flow of Riders in system would be pretty much steady.

It's not something one would see in every system, and not likely to be a stop for the characters and their small trader It's more a bit of colour and expansion from the small ship 'verse of LBB2 and the big ship 'verse of LBB5.

 

[RandyB]

It's been much discussed now and then, here and there. Though this might be the first time it's been called Outport

Basically by eliminating the need to maneuver between the mainworld and the 100d mark a lot of time can be saved over the year. Especially for larger mainworlds or if one chooses to factor some stellar effect.

I grasped the concept immediately - hence the liking.

While named singularly, like Highport and Downport, there may in fact be more than one. It would be dependent on the direction of the traffic that warrants it. If the need is only between two systems then only one Outport would be needed, and it would be relatively stationary (orbiting so to speak) between the two.

Outports would mostly be used only by large shippers, multi Kton transports, quite possibly without any maneuver drive and probably much like a commercial variant of a Battle Rider/Tender setup. A large jump frame hauling separate cargo ships (or even just cargo containers) to be taken by tug to the world, or transferred for further destinations. To take full advantage of the system requires regular traffic of high volume and long in system travel times. Loads need to be ready to go when eachTender arrives so it can be swiftly on it's way fully loaded while the flow of Riders in system would be pretty much steady.

It's not something one would see in every system, and not likely to be a stop for the characters and their small trader It's more a bit of colour and expansion from the small ship 'verse of LBB2 and the big ship 'verse of LBB5.

That implies that Jump physics means "jump between two worlds (can) always result(s) in emergence relatively close to the same point in a system". I don't have any problem with that, nor am I anywhere near sufficiently versed in the canon of Jump physics to comment further.

And this would be akin to drop tanks in the sense that it is something you would see in a more settled, heavily-trafficked area, with more regular, high-tonnage merchant traffic. For that matter, an Outport could be a staging point for drop tanks, if you wanted to use the latter as well...

 

[Icosahedron]

[tangent] how would you determine at which point on the 100D circle (assuming orbital plane; if not, sphere) to place the Outport? [/tangent]

I place my Highport in stationary orbit above the (primary) Downport. I'd simply extend that line to intersect the 100D circle/sphere, thereby minimising flight time between the 3 ports.

 

[nats]

I place my Highport in stationary orbit above the (primary) Downport. I'd simply extend that line to intersect the 100D circle/sphere, thereby minimising flight time between the 3 ports.

Outports dont make sense, there is no way to predict where a ship will enter a system after a jump so there is no sensible place to locate an outport.

And when you think about it there will also be no pirates logically. Because if a ship can enter a system anywhere after a jump and then starts accelerating fully, turns around, and decelerates fully, there is no way a pirate could ever be going fast enough to intercept a ship in mid travel. The only place a pirate could logically strike would be around the main world itself and that would be well defended. So when you think about it there wouldnt be any pirates. The PC game Elite fudged things quite a lot I think to allow pirates to strike. In reality ships would be travelling so fast that nothing could catch them except for just after the jump (impossible to predict) and just before they dock. Unless of course the jump exit points when travelling from surrounding worlds are always in the same place in which case pirates could wait nearby. But as far as I would see it ships exiting jump would deliberately fudge their exit location each time just to avoid the possibility of meeting pirates.

 

[Dragoner]

Presuming all starports would see unstreamlined ship traffic sufficient to warrant it.

I don't recall a CT... actually any edition except GT, that specified where one would find high or down ports. Could be I'm just drawing a blank on it.

I'm sure I've noted house rules somewhere, likely based on Starport Type as others have, on the presumption (rightly so imo) that the better the starport the better the support and the more traffic it has, for whatever reason. I imagine MTU broke down something like:

Class A - Highport and Downport (and later added Outport - aka 100d transfer port)

Class B - Highport and Downport (just not enough traffic to warrant a separate Outport)

Class C - Downport (too off the regular runs to cater to unstreamlined ships, you better have your own small craft if you show up here in one)

Class D - "You call this a Starport?!" Yes it is technically a Downport but man if you expect anything better than poor surly service you are in for a rude awakening :devil:

Interesting list, I like it. About the unstreamlined ships, not only them, but it would save on wear and tear of regular streamlined ships to not have to do atmospheric re-entry. Cargo handling as well would be easier zero-G, esp is it is being just trans-shipped, being off loaded by one bulk carrier to go on to another world. Logically most cargo would be transported by big bulk containerized cargo carriers, the ships otherwise like the subsidized merchant, is subsidized by the Imperium for political reasons so worlds don't become too isolated.

 

[far-trader]

Outports dont make sense, there is no way to predict where a ship will enter a system after a jump so there is no sensible place to locate an outport.

Maybe in your TU, but Jump normally works (even in MgT to my knowledge) by being quite predictable in where you arrive. The navigator/astrogator decides where to arrive and plots the course. There is a minor (official) variance in this point per Marc Miller's old article on it of some 1000km per parsec travelled. At the worst, and that may even have been worded as "up to" but I don't recall off hand. As far as I know no rule set has contradicted that.

Ships may choose any point in a system as the jump precipitation point, subject to it not being within 100d of a large body.

And depending on how you view jump masking there may or may not be some small complication in making one Outport directly accessible between more than one other system or not.

And when you think about it there will also be no pirates logically.

Pirates (another discussion entirely ) as you envision them are illogical for a number of reasons, but this (jump precipitation point) isn't one of them

 

[Jame]

I place my Highport in stationary orbit above the (primary) Downport. I'd simply extend that line to intersect the 100D circle/sphere, thereby minimising flight time between the 3 ports.

Sounds like a perfect place for a beanstalk elevator for me.

Class D - "You call this a Starport?!" Yes it is technically a Downport but man if you expect anything better than poor surly service you are in for a rude awakening :devil:

Now, for me, this is an E port - you'd have unrefined fuel, some warehouses and a port control building but very little more. At a D port you'd have at least minimal repairs.

 

[rancke]

Maybe in your TU, but Jump normally works (even in MgT to my knowledge) by being quite predictable in where you arrive. The navigator/astrogator decides where to arrive and plots the course. There is a minor (official) variance in this point per Marc Miller's old article on it of some 1000km per parsec travelled. At the worst, and that may even have been worded as "up to" but I don't recall off hand. As far as I know no rule set has contradicted that.

No, but the implication of this accuracy coupled with the equally canonical temporal variation means that your arrival relative to a moving object (such as a planet) is much less predictable. Essentially you may arrive at any point along a halfcircle with a radius of the jump limit. Given that that is likely to be quite a distance, the chance of arriving close to any object stationed at a specific point (relative to the world) on the jump limit is not that great. You are probably going to be closer to the outport than to the world, but even that isn't a given.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I place my Highport in stationary orbit above the (primary) Downport. I'd simply extend that line to intersect the 100D circle/sphere, thereby minimising flight time between the 3 ports.

Your outport is going to have to move awfully fast to stay stationary above a point on the surface. Talk about powered orbits!


Hans

 

[HG_B]

IMTU, on any world with 1G or greater grav that also has an A,B or C port, there is an orbital component. Any pop 6> + TL 9> has one also.

 

[far-trader]

No, but the implication of this accuracy coupled with the equally canonical temporal variation means that your arrival relative to a moving object (such as a planet) is much less predictable. Essentially you may arrive at any point along a halfcircle with a radius of the jump limit. Given that that is likely to be quite a distance, the chance of arriving close to any object stationed at a specific point (relative to the world) on the jump limit is not that great. You are probably going to be closer to the outport than to the world, but even that isn't a given.

I long ago decided to chuck the whole self contradictory irreconcilable official expanded explanations in favour of precision (the random rolls are meta-game not game reality). I only noted this situation for canon history. And IIRC the way it is worded is that the 1000km per parsec is constant to the desired arrival point, and motion is not a factor. No half-circle hijinks or other convoluted requirements. No plot to arrive on the 100d bubble ahead of the planet in it's orbit so you arrive more or less where you want. Just simply that you arrive exactly where you want, when you finally arrive, relative to whatever point you want, subject to a simple 1000km per parsec "miss" with no stated direction that "miss" is in, and subject to being no closer than 100d to any large body.

So, no, by canon you will arrive closer to what you're aiming for than anywhere else, unless that anywhere else is within 1000km per parsec travelled which isn't possible for most 100d ranges. It IS a given you will arrive closer to the Outport at 100d than to the world, always, and by a significant margin. At least for any world greater than an asteroid belt body.

 

[Dragoner]

Outports dont make sense, there is no way to predict where a ship will enter a system after a jump so there is no sensible place to locate an outport.

And when you think about it there will also be no pirates logically. Because if a ship can enter a system anywhere after a jump and then starts accelerating fully, turns around, and decelerates fully, there is no way a pirate could ever be going fast enough to intercept a ship in mid travel. The only place a pirate could logically strike would be around the main world itself and that would be well defended. So when you think about it there wouldnt be any pirates. The PC game Elite fudged things quite a lot I think to allow pirates to strike. In reality ships would be travelling so fast that nothing could catch them except for just after the jump (impossible to predict) and just before they dock. Unless of course the jump exit points when travelling from surrounding worlds are always in the same place in which case pirates could wait nearby. But as far as I would see it ships exiting jump would deliberately fudge their exit location each time just to avoid the possibility of meeting pirates.

Pirates raid planets as well, eg Piper's Star Viking, probably more profitable than hitting ships, and one would think they sneak in and steal from highport trans-shipment points as well. Plenty of room for crime in a big Galaxy, any possible angle will be exploited, that's what humaniti is known for.

 

[rancke]

I long ago decided to chuck the whole self contradictory irreconcilable official expanded explanations in favour of precision (the random rolls are meta-game not game reality). I only noted this situation for canon history. And IIRC the way it is worded is that the 1000km per parsec is constant to the desired arrival point, and motion is not a factor. No half-circle hijinks or other convoluted requirements. No plot to arrive on the 100d bubble ahead of the planet in it's orbit so you arrive more or less where you want. Just simply that you arrive exactly where you want, when you finally arrive, relative to whatever point you want, subject to a simple 1000km per parsec "miss" with no stated direction that "miss" is in, and subject to being no closer than 100d to any large body.

No plots that says the opposite either. No plots that mention outports at all, so the absence of any mention of exactly where along the jump limit you arrive is totally inconclusive. What remains is a statement about arriving almost exactly where you aim PLUS a statement about arriving at a specific time plus/minus an unpredictable number of hours. Which adds up to something that can be ignored for purposes of most game situations. Which means that the absence of any mention of it in the game rules proves about as much as the absence of shoe salesmen from character generation proves about how many people in the OTU wears shoes.

So, no, by canon you will arrive closer to what you're aiming for than anywhere else, unless that anywhere else is within 1000km per parsec travelled which isn't possible for most 100d ranges.

By canon you arrive at the jump limit. For purposes of most game situations, any place along the jump limit is as good as any other. So there's nothing in canon that disproves my interpretation. And since my interpretation reconciles two otherwise contradictory pieces of canon, I submit that it should be assumed to be correct untill and unless a better one comes along.

In the OTU, of course. You believe as many contradictory things as you like for your TU.

It IS a given you will arrive closer to the Outport at 100d than to the world, always, and by a significant margin. At least for any world greater than an asteroid belt body.

No, it's not.


Hans