How do you reconcile Languages in your game? On the 0 to 5 scale, what's fluent? Has anyone done anything with this? I'm looking for MgT2, but other systems could be helpful the other people.
Language Proficiency?
- Thread starter Spinward Scout
- Start date
How I play: in the Imperium, the standard language Anglic is spoken pretty much everywhere. Mongoose did introduce language translators a la Star Trek Universal Translator for the major languages, and that is useful (we already have these in the real world interestingly enough). There are some systems that still maintain their own language, but any interfacing with the Imperium will speak Anglic.
Outside the Imperium, depends on how far out you are, and the need of plot basically.
Skill-wise, I go with the skill per language as:
Outside the Imperium, depends on how far out you are, and the need of plot basically.
Skill-wise, I go with the skill per language as:
- 0 - you know a small sub-set of the language, possibly just the cuss words
- 1 - basic functionality. You can ask for directions to the bathroom, order meals, have basic conversations
- 2 - fluent enough so that you can understand with ease and make yourself well understood
- 3 - moving into the slang and various related languages
These are some rules examples from 3rd Edition Runequest (Avalon Hill), which used a 5-tier scale for language skill (you may want to consider this skill 0 thru 4 for MgT):
- Tier-1: Basic words and phrases - "I want food."
- Tier-2: Sufficient to get by in a culture - "How many monies for leg of lamb?"
- Tier-3: Average native-speaker proficiency - " But that leg of lamb was only three coppers yesterday."
- Tier-4: Language of poets and professional speakers - "That lamb was rotten when it was butchered, and isn't worth the spit it took to hit the tax-collector's eye last month!"
- Tier-5: Language of diplomats and elites - "Surely the assessment for this specimen of decomposing provender could be reevaluated in consideration of its advanced state of putrefaction."
In general, I assume that the languages article in JTAS (#16p28) is canon.
This leaves us 2 imperial-spanning languages to concern ourselves with...High Vilani and Galanglic.
The article notes that the Solomani Confed also uses Galanglic, and that most Darrians and Swordworlders also speak dialects of Galanglic.
It stops short of there being domain or even sector level dialects... but the idea that most in-contact worlds teach it is a compelling setting element.
I've never counted languages agains the Int+Edu limit.
Thanks Everybody! All of this is very helpful.
casquilho
SOC-13
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I have my doubts about either the Vargr or the Aslan being able to make understandable Human language with their vocal cords and physical structure of their mouths. I assume some form of electronic translator would be needed. The situation with other alien races would be the same. I am not sure how much the Zhodani telepathy will help them as you are looking at totally different brain structure and thought patterns.
As for Vilani and Galanglic, given the 300,000 year separation, I do not see any even remote similarities between the two, meaning you have two totally dissimilar languages in use. There will be two totally unrelated alphabets in use as well. Again, electronic translators will be popular items. The upper levels of Imerial officials may be required to be bi-lingual similar to Canada with French and English, and I imagine that all major documents will be posted in both languages.
As for how individual characters may be affected, that would be up the to Gamemaster. I personally have no ability with speaking another language besides English, although I can translate written Egyptian hieroglyphics and Old English runes. You may wish to have some characters with a high language ability, I had a professor who could speak 22 languages, and some with none like me.
As for Vilani and Galanglic, given the 300,000 year separation, I do not see any even remote similarities between the two, meaning you have two totally dissimilar languages in use. There will be two totally unrelated alphabets in use as well. Again, electronic translators will be popular items. The upper levels of Imerial officials may be required to be bi-lingual similar to Canada with French and English, and I imagine that all major documents will be posted in both languages.
As for how individual characters may be affected, that would be up the to Gamemaster. I personally have no ability with speaking another language besides English, although I can translate written Egyptian hieroglyphics and Old English runes. You may wish to have some characters with a high language ability, I had a professor who could speak 22 languages, and some with none like me.
The canon Vargr are uplifted terran wolves. If a TP user can bond to a beaker monkey, a xenoprimate, or a Chirper (see AM Zhodani), I'm certain the brain of a Vargr won't present much issue.
And they were uplifted by the Ancients, which means that unless Grandfather chose to keep them from vocalizing specific phonemes, they ought to have been engineered to be able to speak whatever language is needed by the plot. Doesn't mean they won't have an accent...
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The tried and true way would be to shoot all the Vargr that don't respond correctly, and then breed those.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I expressed my normal odd-man-out view. As I do not follow the OTU, I will say no more on the subject.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I'd say for the native language, add any Linguistics skill to EDU then divide by 2 for relative tier.
If a second language using an Expert translator program and cultural immersion, same ratio.
If a second language without long term immersion in the culture and/or a less then Expert translator program, divide by 3.
If a truly alien species, increase the ratio by 1-3- some may be incomprehensible until a linguistics genius/AI solves it.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I was in a discussion of the impact that the Language skill had in Traveller.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
There are already smart phone apps that allow you to translate languages on the fly. You speak to the phone and it reads back the translation along with a displayed written version. I've run into that with Spanish speakers several times now on service calls. I'd assume there'd be much more advanced versions in Traveller.
As for languages in general I would let a player know more than one at some level if it were reasonable given their background that they'd know more than one. For example, I'd think a well-educated Imperial might know Vilani or Sylean in addition to Anglic, and if they were a noble, I'd say that's a must depending on where they are from within the empire.
For those characters that come from the fringes of the empire or outside it, it might be the other way around. They speak the local language and Anglic in addition. If you're Zhodani, you speak Zhodani and maybe something else.
I put a lot of that on the intelligence and education of the character. Smarter and better educated characters are more likely to speak more than one language. Maybe not every such character is that way, but you'd kind of think most would pick up at least some ability to speak a second or even third language depending on where they're from.
Truly alien or very different languages-- I did one called Galian that uses a different alphabet and is a click language would be an example of more difficult--
wiki.travellerrpg.com
As for languages in general I would let a player know more than one at some level if it were reasonable given their background that they'd know more than one. For example, I'd think a well-educated Imperial might know Vilani or Sylean in addition to Anglic, and if they were a noble, I'd say that's a must depending on where they are from within the empire.
For those characters that come from the fringes of the empire or outside it, it might be the other way around. They speak the local language and Anglic in addition. If you're Zhodani, you speak Zhodani and maybe something else.
I put a lot of that on the intelligence and education of the character. Smarter and better educated characters are more likely to speak more than one language. Maybe not every such character is that way, but you'd kind of think most would pick up at least some ability to speak a second or even third language depending on where they're from.
Truly alien or very different languages-- I did one called Galian that uses a different alphabet and is a click language would be an example of more difficult--
Galian - Traveller
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I would say that we are at the non-expert translator program level. Since most people won't have Linguistics and likely not the specific language, an average EDU of 7 would be divided by 3 and yield the above's Tier 2, which I'm under the impression is the level most of these translators achieve.There are already smart phone apps that allow you to translate languages on the fly. You speak to the phone and it reads back the translation along with a displayed written version. I've run into that with Spanish speakers several times now on service calls. I'd assume there'd be much more advanced versions in Traveller.
As for languages in general I would let a player know more than one at some level if it were reasonable given their background that they'd know more than one. For example, I'd think a well-educated Imperial might know Vilani or Sylean in addition to Anglic, and if they were a noble, I'd say that's a must depending on where they are from within the empire.
For those characters that come from the fringes of the empire or outside it, it might be the other way around. They speak the local language and Anglic in addition. If you're Zhodani, you speak Zhodani and maybe something else.
I put a lot of that on the intelligence and education of the character. Smarter and better educated characters are more likely to speak more than one language. Maybe not every such character is that way, but you'd kind of think most would pick up at least some ability to speak a second or even third language depending on where they're from.
Truly alien or very different languages-- I did one called Galian that uses a different alphabet and is a click language would be an example of more difficult--
Galian - Traveller
Expert systems would render that a Tier 3.
I'm emphasizing the immersion as an equal aspect, as how you phrase things affects the outcome of the translation, and how logical it is. Have to know something about the audience and how it thinks/expresses to maximize the translator.
EDU to me covers how erudite the speaker/writer is to begin with, INT how quickly they achieve immersion. SOC would come in with the ability to speak 'upper class' or 'lower class'.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
That's workable. So a higher EDU and INT would give you more innate skill at a second, or even third language. Possibly one tier down for the third, two for the fourth, or something like that. Add in that being immersed in or around native speakers would over a period of weeks to months increase your skill in a language, particularly if you already knew some of it.
It's the combination of ability coupled with the frequency of using it that would really matter as to your proficiency. Having the linguistics skill might better be used as a boost to someone learning or improving a language other than their primary one. The linguistics skill is an indication of your ability to pick up and speak another language. More levels means you do it faster. The limitation is largely on need. You have a need to speak a particular language and apply the skill to learning that language. Over time your level in it decreases if you don't use it back to a 0 or 1 eventually.
You would also have in many cases an accent that might be problematic...
Oh, you might add a difficulty level to various languages. It would be similar to someone learning languages similar to their own versus something really different or alien in nature. Some 'alien' languages might be next to impossible or even impossible to learn due to their nature. For example, this one I created for a synthetic human race:
Ginsharian (language) - Traveller
For a human, that would be an impossible language to speak without computer and other electronic assistance.
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
1. If there was a mechanism in Traveller about constantly practicing a skill, it would apply to language.
2. The problem with a universal translator is, it can't read your mind, so you will have to express yourself clearly and comprehensively to it.
3. Command of a specific language could complement all other skills associated with communications, such as Administration, Carousing, Art, etcetera.
2. The problem with a universal translator is, it can't read your mind, so you will have to express yourself clearly and comprehensively to it.
3. Command of a specific language could complement all other skills associated with communications, such as Administration, Carousing, Art, etcetera.
That's workable. So a higher EDU and INT would give you more innate skill at a second, or even third language. Possibly one tier down for the third, two for the fourth, or something like that. Add in that being immersed in or around native speakers would over a period of weeks to months increase your skill in a language, particularly if you already knew some of it.
It's the combination of ability coupled with the frequency of using it that would really matter as to your proficiency. Having the linguistics skill might better be used as a boost to someone learning or improving a language other than their primary one. The linguistics skill is an indication of your ability to pick up and speak another language. More levels means you do it faster. The limitation is largely on need. You have a need to speak a particular language and apply the skill to learning that language. Over time your level in it decreases if you don't use it back to a 0 or 1 eventually.
You would also have in many cases an accent that might be problematic...
Oh, you might add a difficulty level to various languages. It would be similar to someone learning languages similar to their own versus something really different or alien in nature. Some 'alien' languages might be next to impossible or even impossible to learn due to their nature. For example, this one I created for a synthetic human race:
Ginsharian (language) - Traveller
For a human, that would be an impossible language to speak without computer and other electronic assistance.
I would consider that language difficulty would also have to be gauged relative to the species in question (i.e. Trokh ("Aslan") and various dialects of it might be easy to average for an Aslan, but very difficult for a human or Vargr (and vice versa), due to the difference in mouth and vocal arrangements/tonal range of the species. Perhaps even the ability of the ear and speech-centers of the brain might make meaningful comprehension between different species difficult due to what each brain is hardwired to hear and interpret. OTOH it might be possible that one can understand a language but be physically unable to speak it (and vice-versa).
Depending upon how granular you wish to be, you might wish to allow languages that have a common-root origin to be easier to pick up if the speaker knows a language in the language family or subfamily. For example, I would guess that it is probably easy for a Swede to learn Norwegian, Danish, or Icelandic, somewhat more difficult to learn German, more difficult to learn English or French, and a lot more difficult to learn Korean.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Han Solo understands Wookie, but can't speak it.
Chewbacca understands Han Solo, but can't speak human (Corellian).
So even though both are speaking completely different languages, they both understand what the other is saying.
Don't have to go far to find precedents for the notion.
We'll just leave the astromech noises and protocol droids out of this discussion though.
They're droids, we don't serve their kind here.
