Manchurian national identity

[Anders]

I just found this interesting entry on "Strange Maps", dealing with the logic of Chinese geopolitics. Essentially the paper indirectly cited argues that core China can be regarded as an island, surprisingly isolated from the rest of the world by geography. The large hinterland regions that have become part of China are natural buffers, extending outwards until firm geographical limits (Himalayas, jungles, deserts) make further expansion pointless and outside incursion unlikely.

This analysis suggests that the successor states of China are fundamentally different from current China, especially Manchuria. The heartland has split; this situation might have happened in the US if the post-Twilight governments never united. The interesting thing is that while Manchuria certainly contains the northern heartland most of it is non-Han former buffer states. Canton and China (i.e. greater Sichuan) are much more pure Han. I'm starting to suspect that Manchuria is not as traditional Chinese as it no doubt it claims to be (legitimacy is always valuable).

If we consider the situation during the Twilight war things went very badly: nuclear exchanges across the region, massive megadeath and no doubt refugee movements and disconnected army units on a scale that made Europe look very well-organized. As things settled down it is likely that the groups that did best were the ones that either could live off the land (such as Mongolians and some of the non-Han people) or military units carving out their warlord kingdoms. No doubt several ex-Soviet units were involved. So my theory of the formation of Manchuria would be that it coalesced from these mainly non-Han groups, took on the mantle as a legitimate continuation of Beijing and maybe used Mandarin as a lingua franca, but retained ethnic diversity. This is also why the Manchurian government retains the complex, nearly feudal approach it does, and why Manchuria appears to be much more open outwards than the other two Chinese nations.

To Canton and China Manchuria is not Chinese at all, just Chinese-speaking.

Another thing to note is that Manchuria does not have much great agricultural land; it was more or less forced into industry and international trade - which it profited from immensely. The links to Central Asia are also stronger than present. CAR would make the next logical buffer state if Manchuria were to continue the traditional Chinese system, and this is why the Central Asian War was so crucial to them.

 

[Waldemar]

This is not a new situation for China, in 2320 AD they have more than 3,800 years of recorded history.

The conventional historical view of China's history is that of a country that has been alternating between periods of political unity and disunity and occasionally coming under the dominance by foreign peoples, most of whom assimilated into the Han Chinese population.

The Han Chinese ethnicity has some problems though. There is substantial genetic, linguistic, cultural and social diversity between the various subgroups of the Han, due to historical influences and millennia of immigration and assimilation of various regional ethnicities.

Personally I don't think the Manchurians call themselves "Manchurians". It alludes to the Manchurian ethnicity. Manchurians are a distinct ethnicity, nearly completely assimilated in to the Han Chinese today. It also alludes to the Manchurian Qing dynasty, and Manchuguo, the Japanese puppet state between 1932-1945. I think the official name is probably Zhongguo, the Middle Kingdom, carrying the unbroken line from the first Emperor. The matter of vassal states such as Tibet and Korea, is not new in Chinese history.

As stated on page 56 in 2320 AD Manchuria's misfortunes in the two Central Asian Wars are now leading to Manchuria starting to talk about "Chinese Territorial Integrity" which worries Canton and its buffer state rump-China very much.

The Middle Kingdom is thus more of a meme, an idea, a form of government, a tradition than a "nation". Otherwise it wouldn't have survived for so long.

Canton is "the realm of the southern barbarians". That Manchurian piece of propaganda actually has some merit, as Canton has placed itself outside of the Middle Kingdom, its culture and is using Cantonese dialect as the official language. Ethnically, culturally etc they are about as diverse as Manchuria. Canton is stated as even more feudal, and split between warlords... oops sorry :smirk: regional governors. I would imagine Canton also maintains its legitimacy as "China", perhaps calling itself the Republic of China.

Rump- China, one of Canton's two vassal states (the other being the Federation of Indochina) could even be the remnants of the People's Republic of China claiming legitimacy from a long defunct dynasty (the Mao dynasty) as the "true China". It has happened before in Chinese history.

 

[rfmcdpei]

This analysis suggests that the successor states of China are fundamentally different from current China, especially Manchuria. The heartland has split; this situation might have happened in the US if the post-Twilight governments never united. The interesting thing is that while Manchuria certainly contains the northern heartland most of it is non-Han former buffer states. Canton and China (i.e. greater Sichuan) are much more pure Han. I'm starting to suspect that Manchuria is not as traditional Chinese as it no doubt it claims to be (legitimacy is always valuable).

The Chinese situation reminds me a bit of the era of the Song dynasty, from the 10th to the 13th century. After the Jurchen conquest of much of what is now northern China, the ruling dynasty retreated to the south where it supervised the growth of a mercantile and dynamic separate state. As for Sichuan, it was always a backwater.

If we consider the situation during the Twilight war things went very badly: nuclear exchanges across the region, massive megadeath and no doubt refugee movements and disconnected army units on a scale that made Europe look very well-organized. As things settled down it is likely that the groups that did best were the ones that either could live off the land (such as Mongolians and some of the non-Han people) or military units carving out their warlord kingdoms. No doubt several ex-Soviet units were involved. So my theory of the formation of Manchuria would be that it coalesced from these mainly non-Han groups, took on the mantle as a legitimate continuation of Beijing and maybe used Mandarin as a lingua franca, but retained ethnic diversity. This is also why the Manchurian government retains the complex, nearly feudal approach it does, and why Manchuria appears to be much more open outwards than the other two Chinese nations.

The Qing all over again?

CAR would make the next logical buffer state if Manchuria were to continue the traditional Chinese system, and this is why the Central Asian War was so crucial to them.

Not only that: The Far Eastern Republic must be run by twitching people.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Korea and Koreans might also have played significant roles. EC/S does state, I think, that Korea survived relatively intact, if not quite on Japanese levels. It might make sense for post-reunification government Korea to try stabilize its Chinese hinterland, as a source of raw materials and as some sort of defense against a resurgent Japan. One thing might easily lead to another.

Something like this would certainly give Korea a reason to remain closwely allied to Manchuria. Why would Koreans want to separate themselves from their Manchurian alliance and risk losing access to their biggest and most profitable markets? Besides, there are all those ethnic Koreans living across the border. What could we do for these people?

 

[epicenter00]

It would seem that there's a reason why there's such an "archaic" institution as royalty in Manchuria - national solidarity. It could easily be imagined that Manchuria is sort of an "artificial nation" like Iraq or Tito's Yugoslavia was.

Perhaps Manchuria's pertinent early history stretches back to the post Twilight War era. China is dominated by warlords, self-styled "princes" and "kings", and military controlled communities. Under such a situation, with continual marauding from former Chinese military units and former Soviet military units, and various communities (which may or may not be ethnically exclusive), it was seen that getting the Manchurian industrial heartland would be impossible without alliances between groups that controlled various industries necessary to create the vertical chains of industrial product production. In the chaos of the post Twilight world, perhaps written alliances and similar things were worthless, so people fell back upon (and found the effectiveness) of the old "marriages for alliance" system with some family on top with their allies/peaceful rivals under them. To them, various former military and perhaps even former marauders who were forward-thinking enough to see which way the wind was blowing, or perhaps they just wanted a piece of stability and the promise of electricity, running water, and safe farming.

Such a mish-mash of white Russians, central Asians, and Han would be unwieldy. The various groups would not like each other. But their "chains of fealty" went to one particular family - perhaps the ruling family of Manchuria basically IS Manchuria; without it, the country would fly apart into splinter states dictated by religious, ethnic, and similar lines. However, with the ruling family and power of heritage behind it, there's no privation "Manchurians" won't endure. Maybe the situation isn't as acute in 2300, but the old lines still are there, even if faded.

 

[general_tiu]

And if Manchuria is supposed to be the descendant of both Qing China, and Japanese-Controlled Manchuria [I imagine that Manchuria in 2300 AD still uses the Manchurian flag from the "Japanese vassalage" period], then why did they had to bash both the PRC [rump China] and Canton [Republic of China?] for being barbarized even they had the country's name of a non-Han ethnic group?

 

[Colin]

It would seem that there's a reason why there's such an "archaic" institution as royalty in Manchuria - national solidarity. It could easily be imagined that Manchuria is sort of an "artificial nation" like Iraq or Tito's Yugoslavia was.

Perhaps Manchuria's pertinent early history stretches back to the post Twilight War era. China is dominated by warlords, self-styled "princes" and "kings", and military controlled communities. Under such a situation, with continual marauding from former Chinese military units and former Soviet military units, and various communities (which may or may not be ethnically exclusive), it was seen that getting the Manchurian industrial heartland would be impossible without alliances between groups that controlled various industries necessary to create the vertical chains of industrial product production. In the chaos of the post Twilight world, perhaps written alliances and similar things were worthless, so people fell back upon (and found the effectiveness) of the old "marriages for alliance" system with some family on top with their allies/peaceful rivals under them. To them, various former military and perhaps even former marauders who were forward-thinking enough to see which way the wind was blowing, or perhaps they just wanted a piece of stability and the promise of electricity, running water, and safe farming.

Such a mish-mash of white Russians, central Asians, and Han would be unwieldy. The various groups would not like each other. But their "chains of fealty" went to one particular family - perhaps the ruling family of Manchuria basically IS Manchuria; without it, the country would fly apart into splinter states dictated by religious, ethnic, and similar lines. However, with the ruling family and power of heritage behind it, there's no privation "Manchurians" won't endure. Maybe the situation isn't as acute in 2300, but the old lines still are there, even if faded.

Got it in one.

 

[BMonnery]

Korea and Koreans might also have played significant roles. EC/S does state, I think, that Korea survived relatively intact, if not quite on Japanese levels. It might make sense for post-reunification government Korea to try stabilize its Chinese hinterland, as a source of raw materials and as some sort of defense against a resurgent Japan. One thing might easily lead to another.

Something like this would certainly give Korea a reason to remain closwely allied to Manchuria. Why would Koreans want to separate themselves from their Manchurian alliance and risk losing access to their biggest and most profitable markets? Besides, there are all those ethnic Koreans living across the border. What could we do for these people?

Korea is a killing ground, the most intensive combat area outside Europe. US 8th Army and Soviet Yalu Front (and the respective South and North Korean Armies, plus probably some allied forces) fought with the full gamult of tactical nukes etc. up and down the peninsula. The war prettymuch ends with what was ROK occupied by the US (who probably went home) and DROK by WARPAC.

BTW: It seems the author of E/CS didn't bother to check T2K wrt Korea.

We know from the E/CS the south was better off, and Japan invested heavily in Korea and by ca 2050 the North had been annexed to the South. We know that around 2100, Manchuria invaded Korea and set up a puppet government, seizing a lot of Japanese owned property, and that Koreans are happy to be a subject people.

 

[general_tiu]

But not to the point that Korea is the same position that Manchuria was in the 1930s. They had a cultural identity to protect, after all, and I think in 2300AD they still had managed to balance their allegiance to Manchuria while having some independent mindset in business and pop culture [I've been sitting all day listening to K-Pop and all:rofl:]. But Manchuria still had cultural influences in Korea, too, and Japan as well though much less so.

Now, what about popular culture in Manchuria? Was is on our standards, boring? Was it awash with agitprop? Is there a disturbing parallel to the Juche worship in North Korea and Emperor Worship in Manchuria? Or is just like the ROK in the real world and Japan [possibly essentially the same in 2300 AD]?

 

[epicenter00]

Generally purpose the Manchurians fulfilled in 2300 was a combination of the "Yellow Peril" and "Incompetent Soviets." That is, belligerant, threatening, but quaintly low-tech and no doubt indulging in human wave attacks. Yet, somehow such a nation managed to nearly beat the French Coalition with its staggering technological lead. It's a little mystifying to me, though I guess back in the 1980s it seemed more plausible such a thing could happen (I mean, the storm-gun and their assault rifle were both laughably bad weapons in 2300).

Another factor to take into account was "the Game" which GDW wrote so glowly about in their 2300 development. As far as I can tell, it was a little bit more complex than Risk and probably a lot less complex than Diplomacy. Either way, IMO, it was a poor tool to develop a future history, leading to implausible results like Japan annexing the Philippines, the United States remaining three separate nations for decades on end, and generally encouraging a kind of idealized 1800s style atmosphere of military adventurism in a world which should have been painfully aware what happens when you use military force on people who can develop weapons of mass destruction.

That entire rant is my roundabout way of saying: Take stuff in 2300 with a grain of salt. Looking at how the Manchus are portrayed in 2300, I'd definitely say the way they'd be would be like North Korea with a space program, which I think is a terribly boring and one-dimsensional take on a nation that should be more layered and interesting. If you want one-dimensional bad guys, there's Kafers. I simply find Manchurian technological and cultural backwardness to be more than little unlikely given the long history that Manchuria in 2300 is supposed to have been industrialized.

 

[Waldemar]

But not to the point that Korea is the same position that Manchuria was in the 1930s. They had a cultural identity to protect, after all, and I think in 2300AD they still had managed to balance their allegiance to Manchuria while having some independent mindset in business and pop culture [I've been sitting all day listening to K-Pop and all:rofl:]. But Manchuria still had cultural influences in Korea, too, and Japan as well though much less so.

Now, what about popular culture in Manchuria? Was is on our standards, boring? Was it awash with agitprop? Is there a disturbing parallel to the Juche worship in North Korea and Emperor Worship in Manchuria? Or is just like the ROK in the real world and Japan [possibly essentially the same in 2300 AD]?

Korea is still a independent nation, but it is heavily influenced by Manchuria economically, politically and in some ways culturally. It is not too dissimilar IMO of how "the hermit kingdom" has related to China on previous occasions in history.

Now, on to Manchurian pop culture

My impression is that pop culture was not much of a topic to a strategy based company as GDW, especially in the gaming industry of the 80's. 2300 AD was tailored to work especially well with the scout missions or small taskforce military missions described in the adventures.

GDW added on references to popular culture in 2300 AD only in the later sourcebooks with cyberpunk culture (mindless pap for the masses!) and 20th century nostalgia. Manchurian pop culture was outside of the frame.

But 2320 AD takes us a bit further by descibing a more coherent theme for Core culture.

My take would be that Manchurian pop culture is certainly there and with a good market and mix of music and drama, and also some possible unique niche cultures. I would not imagine it as North Korea, rather more similar to present day China PR. Vibrant, in some places a bit shallow, in others a bit too limited or repressed.

 

[Waldemar]

That entire rant is my roundabout way of saying: Take stuff in 2300 with a grain of salt. Looking at how the Manchus are portrayed in 2300, I'd definitely say the way they'd be would be like North Korea with a space program, which I think is a terribly boring and one-dimsensional take on a nation that should be more layered and interesting. If you want one-dimensional bad guys, there's Kafers. I simply find Manchurian technological and cultural backwardness to be more than little unlikely given the long history that Manchuria in 2300 is supposed to have been industrialized.

In Earth/Cybertech Sourcebook Albania is described as being the last pure Marxist-Leninist government, which of course could be plausible with the Twilight: 2000 v2.2 backstory (an alternate reality starting August 1991).

You point out the most important point; there's better orks than Manchurians in the game world

Does Manchuria give the individual director a fun and interesting place for adventures that the players will like? I think that from the descriptions found in 2320 AD we get a bit more "up to date" version of Manchuria that can also appeal to new players who never played the game back in the 80's.

 

[general_tiu]

So Manchuria is like China today. I think it is also the case of the other Sinophone states, only in Canton's case that it looks like Taiwan of today and rump China is a bit less-developed but still lively enough and not so closed-minded as they are thought to be.

I am also thinking about the Manchu Army. I think the terms 'banners' or 'green standard' army are a bit too ridiculous but used anyway as official titles to their Imperial Guards and Regular armies. I found this idea from the Etranger list.

Besides, I still imagine the Manchurian Imperial court more dressed like in 1930s Manchuria [as a Japanese satellite] rather than as Qing Dynasty-like in manners. Too ridiculous if the attempt to emulate the latter is attempted. I think a more limited version would be softer to swallow.

And we are in dire need of a Manchu flag. I've seen so many designs, from a flag that looks like a reversed-color Vietnam flag from Etranger site, a rip-off of the Chinese imperial flag, the Manchurian flag in the Manchukuo era, and so on. Which flag suits the best?

 

[epicenter00]

If 2300/2320 Manchuria is a patchwork state as I described above, there's actually all kinds of interesting takes on Manchuria itself and some things that need to be taken into account which I think would make Manchuria a fascinating place in 2300. This is how I play Manchuria in my campaign.

1) It's not actually "Chinese" - The Han would only consist of a percentage of the population of Manchuria. For the sake of making it interesting I said 40% of the population was Han, and they do make the largest single ethnic group (this assumes the "looser" definition of Han as opposed to the more strict definitions). Other major power groups would probably be descendants of Russian troops who settled down in the area instead of going home, Central Asians (running the gamut of a variety of peoples), and Koreans (in particular Chosin as opposed to Hanguk). So interestingly, you could have people who look very Slavic or Caucasian referring to themselves as Manchu. This fact is probably known to anyone who bothers to look it up, but in the Central Asian War, France and their European allies were sytimed several times by infiltrating commando units who were able to wreak considerable havoc simply because try as they might, the allied troops had unconsciously fell into race-based enemy identification ("Asian = enemy" "Caucasian = ally"). The Empress, who wanted to juggle the sensitives of her ethnic Russian subjects probably only used the Russian Manchu troops against the French and not against Russians, while being sympathetic to requests by other Russian-descended cantons to avoid the conflict entirely while remaining loyal to Manchuria - these groups were allowed to emigrate to the Manchurian colonies.

2) It's not a democratic republic, it's a monarchy. As they're descendants of bandits, military units, communes, and ethnic/religious self-protection groups, all of which distrusted each other, if they weren't outright hostile. I'd imagine that Manchuria would actually have a long history of semi-autonomous cantons - much like the Swiss. At first, it was a structure with the Emperor at the top, advised by ministers as representatives from the various cantons. As time has passed, the independent and autonomous nature of the cantons/states/provinces have lessened considerably and the idea of "many peoples, one nation under the Emperor" and there's been considerable standardization of laws and public services under a single administration. Nevertheless, even in 2300 there is still a division between Manchurian Supreme Law (or "High" law) - the codes and laws which apply to all Manchus, and Manchurian Traditional Law (or "Low" law) - which just applies to a canton.

I really can't imagine the Manchus dressing in completely retro Qing or Manchukuo style. Certainly, the formal court dress might have trappings of it, but I doubt it'd be identical. As the military is really one of the institutions that hold Manchuria together (being the hand of the Imperial family), I've always imagined Manchu formal dress to look pretty militaristic. In my campaign, Manchus military tend to dress in brocade uniforms, and pressed trousers pulled over jackboots. In formal situations, a sash was allowed to be worn, whose pattern and decoration would allow for the display of medals of personal achievement, as well as to identify canton/ancestry of the wearer. For military wearers, there would be shoulderboards and similar marks of military rank.

I can't really give the idea that Manchuria would use any device while being the puppet-state of a foreign power much credence - no Manchukuo symbols in my Manchuria. I could imagine a simple or a "modern" flag being used as to not offend any of the myraid of groups, but in my 2300 only one flag would do - the flag of Manchuria would be the crest of the Imperial Family on some color - I chose red due to it being a "fortunate" color in my Chinese cultures as well as strongly identified with Russians even before the Soviet Union - the Imperial family is Manchuria, after all. (Yes, it'd be a devil for schoolkids to learn to draw - but nothing less would do.) The crest might be quite simple or very complex. In my world, the Manchurian Imperial Family has a crest done in a European heraldric style but not strictly so - as I've always imagined the Manchurian Imperial family identifying with the tiger, an animal that isn't "legal" for strict European heraldry. The Dragon is claimed by rump China in my 2300, while the tiger, still being a "lucky" animal for the Han would be easier to relate to by non-Chinese peoples as well as identifying itself as more "northern" (the strict tiger used on the crest would be a Siberian one). What I'm less sure would be the military ensigns of the Manchurians, which would probably be different from the Manchurian Imperial flag, and would be seen on their military equipment

 

[general_tiu]

I have a plan for a Manchu flag. It is yellow, with a tiger on it, and on the upper left corner, a poppy flower. [The poppy flower is well-known to Manchuria if I can recall some Asian textbooks.]

Can I give you one design to judge?

 

[Peter Schutze]

>implausible results like Japan annexing the Philippines

why improbable especially with the usa out of the picture for several decades ?

there was real local concern (although overblown) about japan basically buying the philippines up to the late 90s

so if the filipinos agreed, and they just might in a post twilight war world, its quite practical in 2300/2320

 

[general_tiu]

Though they should be portrayed just like in Austria-Hungary not what Japan did to Korea in the 1900s.

 

[epicenter00]

why improbable especially with the usa out of the picture for several decades ?

so if the filipinos agreed, and they just might in a post twilight war world, its quite practical in 2300/2320

I suspect your second concern is what led to the "Japanese annexing the Philippines" storyline by GDW.

As for why I find it implausible, I just don't think it's likely that the Filipinos would agree. I find 2320's "Japanese Federation" (as long as it doesn't have any reference to "co-prosperity") to be a lot more likely than Japan simply annexing the Philippines like some unclaimed territory in Risk or a street in Monopoly that nobody has bought up. "The Game" GDW used to develop 2300 didn't seem to take into account the fact that there would be self-respecting people who live in these areas who might object someone simply taking them because they're some arbitrarily decided "power" with a player directing their actions.

Even with a lot of investment, I find Japanese annexation unlikely it is suggested the annexation was a peaceful one - there's no mention of insurgencies or anything like that. After all even in the modern-day Philippines there's part of the Philippines where a significant portion of the population that doesn't want to be part of the rest of it (Mindanao), enough to fight about it - I don't think that would change if one day the Philippines were to become part of Japan. In fact, I suspect such insurgencies would only gain members.

---

re: general_tiu: Sure post it up. I don't think I'm the only one when I say I like to see artwork and such posted on here.

 

[Peter Schutze]

>As for why I find it implausible, I just don't think it's likely that the Filipinos would agree

most filipino's I know wouldn't care because it wouldn't change their existance .... same as most european peasants didnt care in the royal age. They'd be easily swayed by those 'in power' one way or the other. Most of the current under 40 generation don't have the instinctive hatred of Japan caused by the ww2 occupation and they'd be the vast majority of the survivors in a twilight war.

>a significant portion of the population that doesn't want to be part of the rest of it (Mindanao),

religion and european colonial map making errors are the root of most similar problems.

perhaps the japanese gave up (or the locals did it themself) the muslim parts (besides mindanao island) to indonesia and malaysia where they historically and culturally belonged before europeans meddled ? That would be a small enough change that it wouldnt show up on most 2300AD maps.

 

[rfmcdpei]

perhaps the japanese gave up (or the locals did it themself) the muslim parts (besides mindanao island) to indonesia and malaysia where they historically and culturally belonged before europeans meddled ? That would be a small enough change that it wouldnt show up on most 2300AD maps.

Edward Lipset did a great job in his Japan in 2303AD site, now hosted at the Foxx Industries site.