Mechanical Strength and Burden

[Spartan159]

Talking about mechanicals here, be it Robots, both exoskeletal and endoskeletal, or Battledress (exoskeletons for squishy sophonts), or vehicle-based manipulators that use a Strength rating: What should the multiplier be for weight lifted/moved? Endurance does not enter the picture, it's effectively unlimited as long as the power holds out. I'm counting out cyborg equipment that is mounted to a biological frame.

Has this been addressed in any version of Traveller?

I'd rather modify a base Str rating in the 1 to 33 Ehex range than to have multiple digit strength ratings.

No, I'm not looking to create Mjolnir armor that can flip Main Battle Tanks with ease.

For evaluation, in T5 there are these levels of burden:
Carrying:
Burden 1x
Burden 2x, penalties to Dex, End (Power/battery drain?)
Burden 3x, penalties to Dex, End (Power/battery drain?)
Transfering:
Burden 5x, limited by End (Power/battery drain?)
Lifting:
Burden 10x, limited to under 1 minute (Power/battery drain?)
Dragging:
Burden 20x, limited to under 1 minute (Power/battery drain?)

Version agnostic would be a beautiful thing.

:coffeesip:

 

[infojunky]

Funny I just asked this question over in CT area....

 

[kilemall]

Starting point should be the carry/encumbrance standard and work back from there.

Different strength related activities would have different values. Deadlift? Overhead? Push?

Also, are you looking for standard task valuing?

 

[Spartan159]

Funny I just asked this question over in CT area....

Sorry, missed that.

Starting point should be the carry/encumbrance standard and work back from there.

Different strength related activities would have different values. Deadlift? Overhead? Push?

Also, are you looking for standard task valuing?

the carry/encumbrance rules that I find are geared toward biological strength and endurance. How much strength does a pallet jack capable of lifting and rolling with 3000kg have? I'm looking for a reasonable standard. If a sophont can lift Str + End = kg, can a machine or battledress lift Str * 15 = kg? More? Less? What is your opinion?

PS Bear in mind I'm talking on a less than vehicle level except as it applies to small manipulators on a vehicle, such as on deep sea research craft.

 

[Enoki]

You also have to consider what sort of mechanical system is in use:

Hydraulic
Electric
Pneumatic

To mention three. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. And, each can be more or less efficient than the others.

 

[Spartan159]

You also have to consider what sort of mechanical system is in use:

Hydraulic
Electric
Pneumatic

To mention three. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. And, each can be more or less efficient than the others.

While I agree with your statement, I gathered both T5 and MgT were trying to move away from such crunchiness. I'll be happy for an average modifier that makes sense to the most people. Although I could see a chart done... have to add synthetic muscle ala battletech to that list, just for reasons

 

[Timerover51]

If you are talking robots or Battledress, you are also going to have to consider the ground pressure resulting from the extra load. Doubling the mass supported doubles the ground pressure, and depending on the surface, could result in major problems. Have you ever had to pull a guy out of moderately soft clay, and then discover his boots are still in the clay? I did that once, quite interesting doing it without getting caught as well.

Also there is the issue of how the load is carried, and how unbalanced it is. I have seen lift trucks do nose dives when the driver tried to lift the load a little too high, and then unbalanced. It did not do either the lift truck or the load a lot of good. A shattered crate of machine parts makes a real mess.

How many of your power lifters could how that weight with their arms extended horizontally, rather than vertically? Basically, if they could it would simply pull them over on their face.

The key in loading pack animals is a balanced load on each side. If you put 300 pounds on one side of a mule, he is not going to be really happy, as the load is badly unbalanced.

 

[Spartan159]

If you are talking robots or Battledress, you are also going to have to consider the ground pressure resulting from the extra load. Doubling the mass supported doubles the ground pressure, and depending on the surface, could result in major problems. Have you ever had to pull a guy out of moderately soft clay, and then discover his boots are still in the clay? I did that once, quite interesting doing it without getting caught as well.

Also there is the issue of how the load is carried, and how unbalanced it is. I have seen lift trucks do nose dives when the driver tried to lift the load a little too high, and then unbalanced. It did not do either the lift truck or the load a lot of good. A shattered crate of machine parts makes a real mess.

How many of your power lifters could how that weight with their arms extended horizontally, rather than vertically? Basically, if they could it would simply pull them over on their face.

The key in loading pack animals is a balanced load on each side. If you put 300 pounds on one side of a mule, he is not going to be really happy, as the load is badly unbalanced.

Yep, I agree. Those situations apply to people as well as machines or battledress. With regard to lifting horizontally, I would imagine the greater mass of a robot or battledress would offset things a bit much as a human leans back a bit to lift a smaller load in similar situations. Ground pressure IS a pain, and as it happens I was the guy in the mud once. Or more but I ain't saying.

 

[pendragonman]

Or does the lifting agent posses grav nullification? I suspect this is the technology that makes trav not define lifting capability in the first place.

After all, nullify the local gravity effecting the object you want to lift makes lifting weight a matter of inertia. Especially if the grav nullifying device lifts the target free of the surface it was sitting on.

 

[kilemall]

Okay, working backwards from assuming F/15 being the highest possible and current records rounded off of 450 kg deadlift and 250 kg overhead, that's

450/15= 30 kg per STR point for deadlift,

250/15= 16 kg per STR point for overhead.

So 210 kg for deadlift and 132 kg for overhead for an average STR 7 person.

However, those aren't realistic averages for untrained people.

http://healthyliving.azcentral.com/average-male-deadlift-15429.html

Excluding dimorphism issues, let's work backwards the same way, dividing the untrained values from the article.

155/7= 22 lbs, converted to 10 kg per point for deadlift.

Roughly figure half for overhead, so 5 kg per point.

Then, multiply per skill level for something like an Athletics skill. Humans assumed to have Athletics(Lift)-0 as a basic implied skill.

More rough figuring, I'd use something similar to the weakened blow mechanic. Half capacity, burns off one END point per minute. Half to full, 1 END per second.

Robots of course only have END as long as their power source, and I would use the Cargo Handling skill as their 'Athletic' skill most of the time for purposes of lifting.

So

Average Joe,
STR 7
END 7

Deadlifts up to 35kg for 7 minutes, 70kg for 7 seconds.
Overhead up to 17+ kg for 7 minutes, 35kg for 7 seconds.

Lifter Igor,
STR C
END A
Athletics (Lift-3)

Deadlifts up to 180kg for 10 minutes, 360kg for 10 seconds.
Overhead up to 90kg for 10 minutes, 180 kg for 10 seconds.

Robot THX-1
STR 20
END 2 hours battery
Cargo Handling-2

Deadlifts up to 400kg for 2 hours.
Overhead up to 200kg for 2 hours.

Probably should limit the skill multiple to 3 or 4 max.

Comments are very welcome, this is very back of the napkin scribbling.

 

[kilemall]

Er, comments? Original poster?

 

[Spartan159]

Sorry for the delay, been busy and I had to think this over. I see where you went with this, and I can use this quite easily, especially as I am using MgT which has the skill Athletics (Strength). Do I understand you correctly that the Strength rating is directly equivalent between creatures and mechanicals? A Strength 20 K'kree lifts the same mass as a Strength 20 Robot? Just different durations regarding Endurance vs Power?

Just for the record as I don't know for other versions, but Encumbrance in MgT is a combination of Strength and Endurance. Perhaps I asked the wrong question in the first place.

If Joe Average 7 Str 7 End can lug 14 kg around without being fatigued, How much can Robot THX 7 Str 10 hour battery lug around for 10 hours? 7kg?

 

[kilemall]

Sorry for the delay, been busy and I had to think this over. I see where you went with this, and I can use this quite easily, especially as I am using MgT which has the skill Athletics (Strength). Do I understand you correctly that the Strength rating is directly equivalent between creatures and mechanicals? A Strength 20 K'kree lifts the same mass as a Strength 20 Robot? Just different durations regarding Endurance vs Power?

Just for the record as I don't know for other versions, but Encumbrance in MgT is a combination of Strength and Endurance. Perhaps I asked the wrong question in the first place.

If Joe Average 7 Str 7 End can lug 14 kg around without being fatigued, How much can Robot THX 7 Str 10 hour battery lug around for 10 hours? 7kg?

The CT answer in both cases is 7 kg.

If you took my approach, you would have to figure out what valuation a robot gets when it has a power supply.

Another issue that comes to mind is what encumbrance is- not just weight but bulkiness and load balancing. The robot may end up being encumbered and having less performance re: stats.

AND, you would want to figure out what pack animals would carry too, which leads back to that whole animal valuation thing.

 

[Carlobrand]

Sorry for the delay, been busy and I had to think this over. I see where you went with this, and I can use this quite easily, especially as I am using MgT which has the skill Athletics (Strength). Do I understand you correctly that the Strength rating is directly equivalent between creatures and mechanicals? A Strength 20 K'kree lifts the same mass as a Strength 20 Robot? Just different durations regarding Endurance vs Power?

Just for the record as I don't know for other versions, but Encumbrance in MgT is a combination of Strength and Endurance. Perhaps I asked the wrong question in the first place.

If Joe Average 7 Str 7 End can lug 14 kg around without being fatigued, How much can Robot THX 7 Str 10 hour battery lug around for 10 hours? 7kg?

"Lug Around"? In both the robot-building rule-sets I know of, how much they can lug around isn't decided by strength. It's decided by the propulsion system: legs/wheels/tracks/gravs (and transmission, in the case of the legs, wheels or tracks) and whatever power plant delivers power to them. Strength determines how much a given arm, or collection of arms working together, can lift. The arms are rated on strength. But, for "lugging around", it's about whether the propulsion system is adequate to accept the additional mass and still move the unit.

Robots differ from humans in that you can have very powerful "legs" and very weak arms, or vice versa. You can make a robot that can carry a massive load but can't load or unload it, or a robot that can lift a massive load but then can't move. Humans, at least as presented in the game, tend to develop arms and legs equally: if you're strong, you're strong in both arms and legs, and if you're weak, you're weak in both arms and legs.

 

[kilemall]

"Lug Around"? In both the robot-building rule-sets I know of, how much they can lug around isn't decided by strength. It's decided by the propulsion system: legs/wheels/tracks/gravs (and transmission, in the case of the legs, wheels or tracks) and whatever power plant delivers power to them. Strength determines how much a given arm, or collection of arms working together, can lift. The arms are rated on strength. But, for "lugging around", it's about whether the propulsion system is adequate to accept the additional mass and still move the unit.

Robots differ from humans in that you can have very powerful "legs" and very weak arms, or vice versa. You can make a robot that can carry a massive load but can't load or unload it, or a robot that can lift a massive load but then can't move. Humans, at least as presented in the game, tend to develop arms and legs equally: if you're strong, you're strong in both arms and legs, and if you're weak, you're weak in both arms and legs.

I don't know that the Robot building systems of various versions are that precise of an engineering simulation- I would take STR ratings to mean the rest of the bot can support X amount of lift, just as they do humans.

 

[Spartan159]

"Lug Around"? In both the robot-building rule-sets I know of, how much they can lug around isn't decided by strength. It's decided by the propulsion system: legs/wheels/tracks/gravs (and transmission, in the case of the legs, wheels or tracks) and whatever power plant delivers power to them. Strength determines how much a given arm, or collection of arms working together, can lift. The arms are rated on strength. But, for "lugging around", it's about whether the propulsion system is adequate to accept the additional mass and still move the unit.

Robots differ from humans in that you can have very powerful "legs" and very weak arms, or vice versa. You can make a robot that can carry a massive load but can't load or unload it, or a robot that can lift a massive load but then can't move. Humans, at least as presented in the game, tend to develop arms and legs equally: if you're strong, you're strong in both arms and legs, and if you're weak, you're weak in both arms and legs.

I suppose I could calculate different speeds based on different loads as far as that goes. I need to go through the various robot rules again I think anyway.

For the record, I could not find MT's burden/encumbrance rules but for TNE it was 3*(Str + End) kg. I was like wow, that's a jump. T4 and T5 went back to Str = kg.