Member Worlds and Imperial Credits

[RainOfSteel]

This topic is actually a somewhat-delayed fork from:

Size of the merchant fleet IYTU?

In this post, Hans responds to my question about whether a world with only tens of millions of people would have its own currency separate from the credit by stating that they were Interdicted and couldn't spend them. Yes, from the context of Hans' earlier discussion, they couldn't take credits on their world to spend on other worlds, but that isn't what I meant. I had meant that I thought that entire world was running on the credit internally in the first place and had no separate currency of its own at all.

When I played CT back in the earlier 1980s, players had credits. When they landed at a starport, they paid their fees in credits. When they hit the startown, they paid for their drinks, clothes, guns, and supplies in credits. They paid their bribes in credits. They paid for their medical fees in credits. Nobody, anywhere, no matter what world they jumped to, ever once converted credits into a local currency. There wasn't even an idea that there was such a thing as a local currency. The Imperium was vast and the credit was everywhere.

The Spinward Marches was only settled by the Third Imperium, save perhaps for a few rogue colonies which are not the norm. When colonists arrived, they arrived with the Imperial credit in hand, pocket, and bank account. Traders arriving would have had the credit to buy goods and the colonists, long having accepted the credit, would have continued accepting it. Their descendants would have continued accepting it. Everything would have run off the credit. For century after century and centuries more.

For a long, long time it never occurred to me that any Imperial world, anywhere, would be using anything other than the credit.

I can certainly see how the occasional world might have developed and retained its own currency which would have to be exchanged for the Imperial credit for trade purposes, but I can't see how it would be common. Worlds that had voluntarily joined the Imperium to begin with during its early years, yes, they might well keep their own currency. These worlds would be in the core sectors.

However, I just picked up GURPS: Far Trader and began to re-read it. The first chapter makes it abundantly clear that the authors, and probably the line editor as well, held the general opinion that almost all, or all, worlds in the Imperium had their own currencies. These are not minor opinions on the subject.

Despite the fact that I find GRUPS: Far Trader to be excellent to invaluable in most cases, this particular subject makes little to no sense to me.

I want to know how others view this situation.

Is your TU filled with worlds that each have their own currency, is the credit the only game in town, or something in between?

EDIT----

If all worlds do have their own currency, how do you justify it in the face of what I cannot but imagine would be enormous pressure to switch to the credit to allow for financial transparency with the rest of the Imperium? Megacorporations, especially, in my opinion would value financial transparency of transactions as superior to any arbitrage advantages that would otherwise be available, and they would not be nice about it. If you have half a dozen megacorporations all demanding, through back doors, that a world switch, it will seriously consider switching.

 

[rancke]

I believe that one of the boilerplate provisions of Imperial membership treaties is that the world undertakes to accept Imperial credits. But individual member worlds can't issue Imperial credits. So I also believe that the member worlds issue their own money. For example, IMTU Regina issues it's own currency, called crowns. (By a lucky coincidence, Reginan crowns just happen to be equivalent to a local credit ) If you work for Imperial organizations, you tend to be paid in CrImps, if you work for local Reginan outfits you tend to be paid in crowns.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

I voted "Most of MTU worlds use their own currency..." with an explanation.

It's hard to settle for one click on the poll as it depends on the world in MTU and I've never really looked at the split in detail.

All Interstellar commerce is in Imperial Credits. All Imperial services pay in Imperial Credits. All Imperial Starports (being Interstellar commerce centers) use Imperial Credits.

Most Startowns use Imperial Credits but also employ local currency for locals and the exchange rate is fair.

Few beyond the Startown use Imperial Credits but may accept and will probably offer a fair exchange.

However a few worlds do use the Imperial Credit as their currency, superseding the breakdown above. Generally the politically connected worlds. Sector and Sub-sector capitals for example, contrary to Hans' take There has to be somewhere not too distant to do the printing and backing of the interstellar currency. Though most transactions are electronic in MTU with actual hard currency uncommon.

EDIT: I see no reason to expect "enormous pressure to switch to the credit to allow for financial transparency"... at least not in MTU.

 

[Enoki]

I look at currency the way it is here on Earth. There are number of different ones in use. Some are more common and accepted than others. For example, the Imperial credit is accepted universally in the Imperium but outside the further you go away from its borders the less accepted it is. Many planets also have their own currency at some different exchange rate that can vary widely depending on alot of things.

I also allow bullion type currency similar to say, Kugerands. A common one I use is called the Sliver and light Sliver (5000 and 1000 credit respectively). It is an unspecific metallic-like small bar like a Kugerand only silver in color.

In some cases, particularly with small population planets barter may replace currency altogether or partially. Other worlds like low tech ones might only take metal currencies like silver or gold and the like rejecting any specie money like a credit completely.

Sometimes the local currency is tied to the Credit, particularly within Imperial borders.

The other one that can come up is that certain currencies won't exchange at all. For example I would tell players that Zhodani money is worthless inside the Imperium and possession might even get you a police inqusition.... or would tell them that as they tried to exchange it.....

 

[aramis]

IMTU, most worlds don't issue CrL for one main reason - the CrImp is harder to forge.

Many of them have long-standing stocks of CrImp, and given most TL9+ worlds will have local electronic money systems, the inability to mint CrImp isn't an issue unless there's a run on the CrImp.

Only worlds that don't want locals to have the ability to leave routinely issue their own currencies.

Mind you, aside from the JTAS article, Striker, TCS, and the MT Ref's Companion, the idea of local currency seems to be almost totally ignored in canon. It's an option, but it's not used that I can recall in any of the non-TCS adventures. So... IMTU, it's a local option that's seldom used. Still, Imperial taxes are paid either in CrImp in cash, or in services, or in bodies.

 

[Tobias]

I am generally in favor of every world using the Imperial Credit. However, there is a problem: A lot of equipment is not priced according to tech level. For example, a less capable, lower-tech starship will often cost more than its higher-tech counterpart. I think this is where the "local credit" idea originally came from.

So my idea is to use Credits everywhere but to introduce a tech level price modifier for equipment produced at above or below the Imperial norm.

 

[RainOfSteel]

But individual member worlds can't issue Imperial credits.

I agree.

So I also believe that the member worlds issue their own money.

I'm not seeing how this follows the previous statement. Why does an individual Imperial world's inability to issue Imperial credits mandate that it issue it's own currency for local use? What prevents them from just using the Imperial credit all purposes, everywhere on the world?

For example, IMTU Regina issues it's own currency, called crowns.

Why would Regina, having been settled during the Third Imperium, having had the Imperial credit available from the time of first landing onward, ever develop and deploy its own currency?

All Interstellar commerce is in Imperial Credits. All Imperial services pay in Imperial Credits. All Imperial Starports (being Interstellar commerce centers) use Imperial Credits.

I agree.

EDIT: I see no reason to expect "enormous pressure to switch to the credit to allow for financial transparency"... at least not in MTU.

Exchanges of currency are not provided for free. They're provided for a fee.

Given that actual Imperial currency will need to be provided during any exchange (see GURPS: Far Trader, chapter one), and then either actual local currency will be provided in return or placed on deposit in a local bank, these transactions serve to slow the pace of business.

Exchanges also add security risks associated with transferring the Imperial credits to the destination world.

The variability of the exchange rate prevents businesspeople from successfully projecting costs in advance, frustrating financial predictions, and creating losses on some occasions due to unfavorable exchange rates that cannot be known in advance.

Those are all reasons why.

Many of them have long-standing stocks of CrImp, and given most TL9+ worlds will have local electronic money systems, the inability to mint CrImp isn't an issue unless there's a run on the CrImp.

A bank run. There is a legitimate issue. The world can't issue new credits and so might not be able to meet the demand against a bank run.

Panic, engendered by whatever reason, is what causes a bank run.

The two biggest banking organizations in the Imperium are Hortalez et Cie and Sharurshid, both Imperial megacorporations. All the megacorporations are involved in the banking operations of every sector of the Imperial, and the Imperial Family's own holding corporation (the descendant of Zhunastu Heavy Industries) is undoubtedly involved at the deepest levels, as well. The Ministry of Commerce has its own regulatory role in assuring interstellar banks maintain sufficient reserves.

Each megacorporation is viewed as being far beyond assault or damage. None have ever been so much as threatened during the entire history of the Imperium. The Imperial Family may have experienced disruptions, such as the Civil War, but its holding corporation assets have largely experienced the same security and stability as the megacorporations. Sharurshid in particular, being a former First Imperium organization, having been around for approximately nine or ten millennia, is viewed as a pillar of stability and survival. Money placed in the hands of their banks is almost certainly viewed as being secure.

The idea that anyone would suddenly panic over an interstellar bank failure with that kind of backing available doesn't seem very realistic.

I suppose a small small and strictly local bank (local to a specific region of a world) could fail, causing a panic and a run, and be unable to meet demands to withdraw all Imperial credits, but even if the small local bank was emptied, the larger interstellar banks on world could work with MoC regulators (who would shut down the failing bank) to meet its demands. Far more likely is that the MoC would notice the small local bank failing ahead of time, shut it down before any run, and have it and its accounts be bought up by a larger bank.

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I also speak from the standpoint of reducing world-building requirements. Every world that has its own currency requires yet more elements that must be GM-defined: currency names, denominations and their individual names, exchange rates (changing over time). These are elements I would hope I don't need to deal with creating for every world, or even any world (inside the Imperium).

 

[Dragoner]

I'm not seeing how this follows the previous statement. Why does an individual Imperial world's inability to issue Imperial credits mandate that it issue it's own currency for local use? What prevents them from just using the Imperial credit all purposes, everywhere on the world?

I voted some worlds use their own currency. It is a complicated subject and it can make big difference for your economy, such as with the euro crisis. IF your economy is large enough, there are various issues to look at such as: Where is the central bank? This has a lot to do with liquidity of the money supply and reaction to the overnight rate. Also independent currencies, help if you want to cheapen exports the way China does, so you peg your currency at a cheaper rate.

 

[rancke]

I'm not seeing how this follows the previous statement. Why does an individual Imperial world's inability to issue Imperial credits mandate that it issue it's own currency for local use? What prevents them from just using the Imperial credit all purposes, everywhere on the world?

I don't know enough about the finer details of fiscal management to be dogmatic about it, but as I understand it, a society that is unable to adjust the amount of currency in circulation is vulnerable to fluctuations in their economy. If the supply of money increases faster than the economy expands, you get inflation; if the supply of money doers not increase as the economy expands, you get deflation. Both inflation and deflation are supposed to be Bad Things.

Why would Regina, having been settled during the Third Imperium, having had the Imperial credit available from the time of first landing onward, ever develop and deploy its own currency?

From 75 to 250 Regina wasn't a member of the Imperium, so back then it would probably have needed to issue its own currency for domestic use. But that doesn't signify. There has been plenty of time since 250 to change that.

The two biggest banking organizations in the Imperium are Hortalez et Cie and Sharurshid, both Imperial megacorporations. All the megacorporations are involved in the banking operations of every sector of the Imperial, and the Imperial Family's own holding corporation (the descendant of Zhunastu Heavy Industries) is undoubtedly involved at the deepest levels, as well.

What makes you think Zhunastu Industries survived the fall of Cleon the Mad?

I also speak from the standpoint of reducing world-building requirements. Every world that has its own currency requires yet more elements that must be GM-defined: currency names, denominations and their individual names, exchange rates (changing over time). These are elements I would hope I don't need to deal with creating for every world, or even any world (inside the Imperium).

IMO, a local currency is something that can easily be ignored but which adds verisimilitude to an otherwise bland and unconvincing setting.


Hans

 

[FreeTrav]

The thing about your currency being under the control of a different entity is that you lose some control over your economy.

If you want to 'prime the pump' and create local investment to encourange local development (perhaps to create more goods for export), you can't just print more CrImps and dump them into circulation locally; you don't have the authority to do so. But... if you have a convertible local currency, you can, if you feel you need to, take a (temporary) hit on the interstellar side (devaluation vs. the credit) in favor of pumping more (freshly printed) 'crowns', 'dollars', 'yapstones', 'cowrieshells', or whatever into the local economy.

So, you use the CrImp for interstellar stuff, or as a reserve currency - kinda like a lot of countries use the Dollar or the Euro today. But your local economy is denominated in your local currency, and under your own government's control should some action be needed.

 

[Dragoner]

There can be situations like Mexico, which has it's own currency, but you can spend American Dollars there no problem. Also like the Dollar as Reserve currency, the CrImp, becomes the benchmark of what another currency is worth. One could even have a "commercial" currency, that is used by Banking, Industry and Commerce; but not in public circulation.

 

[FreeTrav]

Can you spend USD outside of the area near the US border and the tourist destinations (e.g., MexDF, Cancun, Acapulco, etc.)? Also, don't forget that the Mexican government is - by European and American standards - very nearly dysfunctional. You may not take a bath on the exchange rate when you spend USD there, but the dollar economy, while likely larger than the peso economy, is really outside the government's control.

Can a world truly be that dysfunctional, even if they a J1 neighbor that is the regional economic powerhouse?

 

[Dragoner]

Looks like they just passed a law a year ago trying to put the brakes on it, we'll see how that goes; a couple of years ago I could spend Dollars everywhere. Can an entire world be dysfunctional?

*Looks at globe of the earth

I would say yes, yes it can. Especially if it has strong neighbors maninpulating them, say Jae Tellona by Rhylanor.

 

[far-trader]

...a couple of years ago I could spend Dollars everywhere.

Go back to that "couple of years ago" and substitute:

US Dollars for Imperial Credits

USA for Imperial Systems (in MTU few and far between, mostly just the Capital systems outside the Core)

Every other friendly trade country for every Member System, each with their own currency

...and you pretty much have my vision of the way it works in the game.

CrImps are the standard for the Imperial Systems, and widely accepted in every Member System. Every Member System maintains it's own local currency. Most local currencies are not always accepted in the true Imperial systems (at banks yes, for transactions not so much) and traveller's would be well advised to convert before visiting.

 

[Dragoner]

Go back to that "couple of years ago" and substitute:

US Dollars for Imperial Credits

USA for Imperial Systems (in MTU few and far between, mostly just the Capital systems outside the Core)

Every other friendly trade country for every Member System, each with their own currency

...and you pretty much have my vision of the way it works in the game.

CrImps are the standard for the Imperial Systems, and widely accepted in every Member System. Every Member System maintains it's own local currency. Most local currencies are not always accepted in the true Imperial systems (at banks yes, for transactions not so much) and traveller's would be well advised to convert before visiting.

US doesn't rule like the Imperium does. I would say there is a central bank on every subsector capital, and wealthy worlds with the central bank would use it the way the regional federal reserve banks are used. Now if there are other major economies within the subsector, they would have their own currency to insulate from shocks as well as not have some terrible two week delay in the overnight rate. Smaller economies will use the CrImp because there would be no real reason for them to do otherwise and a huge set of disadvantages, like currency speculators collapsing the value of their currency. The would be discretionary policy within the subsectors with maybe some more rules based approach on the sector level, but modified by commerce within the sector and within the Imperium to some degree. The Imperium rules the space in between the planets in the same way the US Federal Government rules the space between the states (esp with the commerce clause); but like the states, the Imperial worlds are also part of the Imperium, just to quote Animal Farm: "some animals (worlds) are more equal than others."

 

[RainOfSteel]

I voted some worlds use their own currency. It is a complicated subject and it can make big difference for your economy, such as with the euro crisis. IF your economy is large enough, there are various issues to look at such as: Where is the central bank? This has a lot to do with liquidity of the money supply and reaction to the overnight rate. Also independent currencies, help if you want to cheapen exports the way China does, so you peg your currency at a cheaper rate.

There is no central bank of the Imperium. Because the central bank of the Second Imperium was viewed as having caused the Long Night itself, the Third Imperium goes out of its way to avoid a central bank.

Banks start at the sector level and move down to subsector and planetary versions (and probably regional-planetary).

I would imagine worlds with populations of 0-3, and possibly 4-5, might not even have local banks.

Even a branch bank (probably found at or near the local starport) of a larger subsector concern would be difficult to operate with sufficient security for so few people (without decent security, it would be vulnerable to piratical raids targeting its physical money supply). This leads me to believe that sector and subsector levels of government, desiring that banking services be available as widely as possible, almost certainly subsidize the presence of banks (and possibly other critical services, like a medical station) on many worlds that otherwise could not afford them or the security to protect them. Your Imperial tax credits at work.

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From 75 to 250 Regina wasn't a member of the Imperium, so back then it would probably have needed to issue its own currency for domestic use. But that doesn't signify. There has been plenty of time since 250 to change that.

I suppose I read the Spinward Marches description in Supplement 11 a little differently. To me, the "coreward branch" of sector colonization was "Imperial sponsored", and therefore was carrying the credit along with it.

I suppose the inability to print their own currency, and unreliable connection to the Third Imperium for nearly two centuries, might have been a reason to establish their own currency.

The hard part is, we don't really know what the colonization condition were, like how much regular external support they received, how well stocked and supplied the original and any successive landings were, etc.

What makes you think Zhunastu Industries survived the fall of Cleon the Mad?

I don't think the name Zhunastu Heavy Industries survived the founding of the Third Imperium, but there is no way Cleon I, and his four successors before Cleon the Mad, threw away all those assets. To me, they kept that corporation. Nor, I think, was there any way Cleon I and his successors did not play favorites with their own company, showering wealth and acquisitions upon it, while its management under the emperor, secure working under Imperial backing, probably ran rough-shod over everything in their path.

I suppose you can say Cleon the Mad did whatever you want. However, for one, he was only born in 201, after 200 years of Imperial/emperor-backed growth for their private corporation (you could say it continued on under Zhunastu Heavy Industries, but I call it Imperial Family Holdings, LIC). Also, once crowned in 244, he did not last long enough, IMO, to dismantle anything the size of a megacorporation by his assassination in 245.

IMO, a local currency is something that can easily be ignored but which adds verisimilitude to an otherwise bland and unconvincing setting.

Ok, adding local color.

-------------

And my apologies: above when I referred to Sharurshid, I really meant Zirunkariish (IMTU, any company so heavily wrapped up in finance and investments is going to have significant banking interests, even if they may not be as big as Hortalez et Cie). All the megacorporations have banking interests, but I place Hortalez et Cie and Zirunkariish in the lead.

 

[Dragoner]

There is no central bank of the Imperium.

What? With no central bank, there would be no CrImp.

 

[rancke]

I suppose I read the Spinward Marches description in Supplement 11 a little differently. To me, the "coreward branch" of sector colonization was "Imperial sponsored", and therefore was carrying the credit along with it.

The history essay in LDNZ talks of exploration, contacting worlds, and establishing bases -- not colonization. It makes sense to me that the earliest Imperial settlers in the Marches were trying to get away from the Imperium or had other purposes. Mora started as a trade colony, not a colonization effort. The major Imperial expansion and settlement of the Spinward Marches occurs from 200-400 [TD18:23], yet major inroads in settling the Spinward Marches had already been made by 200 [TB:149]. How can that be? If those major inroads were not made by the Imperium itself. The Imperium only gets involved around 200. That's why the Vargr Campaigns doesn't start until 210; the Imperium didn't prioritize clearing a lane through Corridor until then.

As for Regina not being part of the Imperium from its very beginning, the essay A Concise History of the Third Imperium states that "Regina and six nearby worlds joined the Imperium in 250" [TD18:23]

The hard part is, we don't really know what the colonization condition were, like how much regular external support they received, how well stocked and supplied the original and any successive landings were, etc.

No canon information, no. My own take is no external support whatsoever. For more details on my version of Regina's early history, some of it is posted here.

(I've also written a campaign setting (Mora: Year 100) and an adventure (Passage to Mora) for JTAS Online. )

I don't think the name Zhunastu Heavy Industries survived the founding of the Third Imperium, but there is no way Cleon I, and his four successors before Cleon the Mad, threw away all those assets.

(It's Zhunastu Industries; no 'Heavy')

I do think the name survived the founding of the Third Imperium. Zhunastu Industries belonged to the Zhunastu family. The Imperium didn't snaffle any of the other megacorporations; why do you assume that it retained control of ZI when Cleon II abdicated? Granted, he probably (almost certainly) didn't run it himself, but he could easily have had relatives that could be put in charge. I think ZI survived until Cleon the Mad ran it into the ground in his purges. He probably killed every one of his relatives (except perhaps for a harmless, crippled uncle ) and treated his top managers according to the Darth Vader School of Management.

To me, they kept that corporation. Nor, I think, was there any way Cleon I and his successors did not play favorites with their own company, showering wealth and acquisitions upon it, while its management under the emperor, secure working under Imperial backing, probably ran rough-shod over everything in their path.

One big problem with that theory. You're quite right that a corporation that is owned outright by the Imperial family would be practically unsinkable. So where is the corporation now? Whatever name it changed to, it should still be around and still be a megacorporation. But we have a full list of Imperial megacorporations in the Classic Era, and not only are none of them are run by the Imperial family, we have information about the founding of each of them.

It could have been destroyed in the Civil War, true, but one thing is certain, it's not around any more.

I suppose you can say Cleon the Mad did whatever you want. However, for one, he was only born in 201, after 200 years of Imperial/emperor-backed growth for their private corporation (you could say it continued on under Zhunastu Heavy Industries, but I call it Imperial Family Holdings, LIC). Also, once crowned in 244, he did not last long enough, IMO, to dismantle anything the size of a megacorporation by his assassination in 245.

He had time to demolish the top levels of management and to generate enough lawsuits to bring down any corporation. I've no doubt that some individual divisions survived (in fact, I mention one such in my Outrim Frontier campaign setting for JTAS Online). Others, I believe, would have been closed or bought up by other corporations.

(All this my non-canon opinion).


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

One big problem with that theory. You're quite right that a corporation that is owned outright by the Imperial family would be practically unsinkable. So where is the corporation now? Whatever name it changed to, it should still be around and still be a megacorporation. But we have a full list of Imperial megacorporations in the Classic Era, and not only are none of them are run by the Imperial family, we have information about the founding of each of them.

It's pretty obvious where it is and what it changed its name to.

It was renamed the Third Imperium and its directors etc received noble patents form the Emperor/CEO.

 

[RainOfSteel]

What? With no central bank, there would be no CrImp.

LKW was the line-editor, knows as much as anyone about the OTU except Marc, and he approved the text of GURPS: Far Trader, which flatly states that there is no central bank of the Imperium and why.

I did mention that their opinions were not minor ones as far as I am concerned.

The major point raised in this topic about local worlds not being able to print their own currencies is, I think, the key issue in why worlds would create their own. I don't personally like the added complexity, and so I personally rule that almost all worlds tend to accept the Imperial credit directly as legal tender. This tends to make things transparent for your "Travellers" and traders who won't want to conduct currency exchanges. Locals simply price their goods in Imperial credits at the correct exchange rate, and they turn in Imperial credits to their banks and get back the sale-date exchange rate in the local currency (they can request to retain an account in Imperial credits if they want to do frequent business with offworlders, a common request for those dealing in interstellar trade.

Also, IMO, after many centuries of existence, most planet's currency exchange rate with the Imperial credit doesn't change much except in cases of local wars or political upheavals. This tends to mean that as far as the GM (namely me) is concerned, I do not worry about creating price differences on every world due to currency issues (maybe for Amber and Red Zones).


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talks of exploration, contacting worlds, and establishing bases -- not colonization.

As I stated, I read it differently than you. The direct implication is that it is discussing colonization. By exactly what party within the Imperium, it doesn't say, but whether the Imperial government itself, or independent parties within it, they would have still had the Imperial credit.

As for Regina not being part of the Imperium from its very beginning, the essay A Concise History of the Third Imperium states that "Regina and six nearby worlds joined the Imperium in 250" [TD18:23]

I never had that issue. (I only possess a handful of Traveller's Digest issues, like two or three)

The Imperium didn't snaffle any of the other megacorporations

I am not clear what you mean, here. The other megacorporations wouldn't have been involved, so stating that the others wouldn't have been stolen appears non-sequitur to me.

[...] why do you assume that it retained control of ZI when Cleon II abdicated?

Because I think that Cleon I organized it so that his assets were the Imperial Family's assets. When Cleon II abdicated, he left behind control/ownership of Imperial Family assets to his successor, as originally intended. He may have retained non-voting shares and other financial incentives after abdication, but control/ownership of Imperial Family assets passed to the successor to the Imperial Family position, the new Emperor (Artemsus). Reading again the description of Cleon II's abdication and life after also reinforces my opinion. He would not have taken the control/ownership of those corporate assets with him. Cleon the Mad would have only obtained theoretical control in 244, and he was killed in 245.

I always had the name changing away from Zhunastu Industries (no idea where I got the "Heavy" from, my apologies) so that the Third Imperium could move forward and memories of what Zhunastu Industries did along the way to empire could be more rapidly forgotten.

One big problem with that theory. You're quite right that a corporation that is owned outright by the Imperial family would be practically unsinkable.

It could have been destroyed in the Civil War, true, but one thing is certain, it's not around any more.

The first statement says that ZI could not be sunk. The second says it's not around anymore.

So where is the corporation now?

Just because something isn't discussed doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means there is no canon information about it.

The very idea the the emperor of the Third Imperium doesn't have gigantic corporate assets in direct ownership through the position of emperor just seems unlikely to me. The reason for this belief of mine? Because one of the reasons the nobility of Terra's pre-spaceflight era gradually lost power was their stiff-necked resistance to getting involved with non-agricultural business (i.e. trade, crafts, etc.). The wealth of non-agro business owners overran the wealth of agro-business owners, and indeed, many nobles became penniless as a result. Cleon I wasn't going to make the same mistake. He was going to make sure the position of Emperor retained immense corporate assets and the wealth therefrom.

He had time to demolish the top levels of management and to generate enough lawsuits to bring down any corporation.

One year of late-model madness is hardly sufficient. Everyone around him could see he was an issue, and if they were plotting against his life, they were foot-dragging against his orders soon enough.


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It's pretty obvious where it is and what it changed its name to.

It was renamed the Third Imperium and its directors etc received noble patents form the Emperor/CEO.

That was what Cleon I did with the worlds of the Imperium, give them away to his supporters. I doubt he gave away the primary source of his wealth, his own company, to anyone else. I strongly doubt it.