More Mongoose Meddling or Welcome Wonderment?

[Supplement Four]

According to this thread over at the Mongoose boards: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40728&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

Matt says that Mongoose is going to change the Traveller 2300 background from being that of Twilight 2000 to the Official Traveller Universe.

Hmm...

I always liked the game, but I was never a die hard 2300 fan. I wanted to play it more than I did, but there was Traveller--my true love. So, I bought 2300 and used it for Traveller.

Always wanted to play in the true 2300 universe, though. There's something gritty and appealing about it.

Yeah, I'm ticked off that Mongoose will change whatever they want in the Official Traveller Universe (Where is this going to fit? Just before contact with the Vilani? Are we trading in Stutterwarp for Jump Drives? What about all that georgeous background in the Solomani Alien module? Is that going to be obsolete, changed material? Should I ignore this change like I do everything else Mongoose does?)

OTOH, I'd be lying if I didn't think, waaaayyy back when I first purchased Traveller 2300, that it would make for a damn cool pre-history to the Third Imperium (actually, to the Second Imperium, pre-contact with Vilani).

So, I don't know how I feel about this change. I don't instinctively hate it like I've hated, with a passion, most of what Mongoose is doing with Traveller.

Of course, it doesn't seem quite "right" either. I supposed Twilight 2000 wil become earth history too, for the same universe as Traveller.

Again, there have been times where I thought that might be a cool idea.

OTOH, I sure hate how Mongoose is changing things willy-nilly.

Right now, I'm in the middle. The jury is still out. This needs some thought.

I mean, the two games are different. Traveller is golden age space opera. 2300 (and T2000 before it), is actually more gritty. You can equate Traveller with Honor Harrington while 2300 feels more like Outland or Aliens.

What are your thoughts?

Should Mongoose's change be supported?

Or, should we be disgusted that Mongoose is changing, yet again, something about the Official Traveller Universe?



NOTE: Let's also be completely fair, here. Matt also says, in the linked post above, that this idea is what they've thought about doing, but it's unlikely to happen. So, maybe Marc said, "No, you can't combine the two universes".

It still scares me that Mongoose thinks changes like this are a good thing to do. But, "unlikely" doesn't mean "will not happen".

So, before anybody goes off half-cocked and half-baked about this (not looking for a flamer here), rest assured that it doesn't look like such a thing will happen.

 

[deniable]

Matt says that Mongoose is going to change the Traveller 2300 background from being that of Twilight 2000 to the Official Traveller Universe.

The only change we have looked at making (beyond the system itself) is to alter the background so it becomes a true prequel for the OTU - but that is unlikely to happen, it seems.

I guess it's a slow Sunday.

 

[Sturn]

Nearly impossible to merge 2300 AD and OTU without making major changes to one or both:

1. The maps. Earth discovered the Vilani at the first world they jump to in OTU. IN 2300 AD, Earth has several colony worlds before they even discover the Kafer, let alone the later Vilani.

2. The timeline. 2088 AD discover jump drive. 2097 AD meet Vilani. That leaves only 9 years for a 2300 AD campaign of colonization and alien frontiers?

3. Technology levels not compatible. 2300 AD has plasma guns. So that's TL 12? But they don't have grav vehicles that are obtained at TL 9? Etc. Easier to make up some new TL charts specifically for a 2300 AD campaign book then attempt to adapt 2300 AD to Traveller TL's.

You could try to merge the timelines, but in my opinion you would have to alter one or the other (or both!) so much that you would alienate OTU fans, or 2300 AD fans, or more likely both. It fails.

I guess it's a slow Sunday.

I don't think you read all of S4's post where he points out the part about "it's unlikely to happen".

 

[deniable]

I don't think you read all of S4's post where he points out the part about "it's unlikely to happen".

I think I did. It's still flame-bait.

 

[aramis]

I think I did. It's still flame-bait.

Matt and Fordy both seem to like stirring pots.

 

[Border Reiver]

I've praised Andy Slack's work on Traveller, 2300 and Transhuman Space before but for those interested page 69 of this pdf has a very good integration of the 2300 timeline into the Traveller universe. Lots of other goodness there too.

As to Matt and Fordy "stirring", well it's funny to see how easily the pot of Traveller fandom is stirred.

 

[Sturn]

I've praised Andy Slack's work on Traveller, 2300 and Transhuman Space before but for those interested page 69 of this pdf has a very good integration of the 2300 timeline into the Traveller universe. Lots of other goodness there too.

2347: First contact with Vilani.

In 2347 instead of 2097 AD. First contact after colonizing several worlds within 50 LY's instead of after visiting one just 2 parsecs away.

Any meddling drastically changes the timelines. That's bad for both 2300 AD and OTU fans. Different universes should be kept that way.

 

[Supplement Four]

I think I did. It's still flame-bait.

Not really. I specifically pointed out that I wasn't looking for a flamer.

And, so far, the replies, except for yours, are thoughtful and interesting.

 

[MongooseFordy]

Matt and Fordy both seem to like stirring pots.

It's so true.

 

[Shadowfax]

I always liked the game, but I was never a die hard 2300 fan. I wanted to play it more than I did, but there was Traveller--my true love. So, I bought 2300 and used it for Traveller.

Always wanted to play in the true 2300 universe, though. There's something gritty and appealing about it.

-----------------Yes, it was sort of like Twilight 2000, but for traveller! I like the ideas in there the old terran governments, the kafers, the near star chart. It was cool to link it in with adventures in the Impirium's past.

 

[Jame]

It's so true.

I hope you (MGP) do not make 2300 AD a prequel to the 3rd Imperium; first of all, I don't want you to (hey, it's what I care about!), second, the ships are too different, and third-as-one-above-said, the settings are too different.

 

[rancke]

-----------------Yes, it was sort of like Twilight 2000, but for traveller! I like the ideas in there the old terran governments, the kafers, the near star chart. It was cool to link it in with adventures in the Impirium's past.

Now, where did I put my bargepole?


Hans

 

[beowulf2044]

In my opinion, the 'Stutter-Warp' drive was the most contrived piece of bad game mechanics to artificially limit the playing board ever devised for a space adventure game. Harry Harrison's 'Bloater Drive' had more credibility.

On the other hand, I loved the real astrography and the considered lack of a magical artificial gravity engine.

So, if there is to be an integration of Traveller and 2300, I suppose we say goodbye to the Kafers and all the rest of the 2300 aliens?

 

[Sturn]

In my opinion, the 'Stutter-Warp' drive was the most contrived piece of bad game mechanics to artificially limit the playing board ever devised for a space adventure game. Harry Harrison's 'Bloater Drive' had more credibility.

I tried making a real star map for a game of my own creation once. I fiddled with various LY range maximum's. I came up with a nice map with enough worlds to visit from Earth, but also limited to some fun routes. I noticed my LY maximum range was 7.5. I recalled 2300 AD's was 7.7. No coincidence.

Yes it was a game mechanic to give a fun map. Yes it was completely made up. Then again, the "displace hydrogen" idea of a jump drive is a completely made up game mechanic also to make us stop and refuel. No one's invented a warp drive yet, so I can easily suspend my disbelief at both of these notions. Who know's what a warp drive will be like. It makes for a more appealing game to limit the warp drive somehow or you end up with the hyperspace of Star Wars with everyone zipping off to far parts of the Galaxy in a relative short amount of time.

 

[mike wightman]

Say goodbye to kafers etc?

No chance ;P

I have included all the 2300 aliens IMTU for a long time now, and re-wrote the early days of the terran expansion into space so that the 2300 background could become the 'history' of MTU.

What I did was assume first contact between the solomani and vilani didn't occur until about 2400AD.
Made the solomani victory a bit easier to explain too.

As to stutterwarp, it still exists in MTU, it's just that the standard jump drives and maneuver drives are much more efficient and economical so why use the stuterwarp when there is better available.

 

[kafka47]

I would welcome the inclusion of the T2xxx as part of the OTU even it means delaying First Contact with the Vilani to 2400. Afterall, date what year is IY -1776 and it comes together quite nicely.

I even wrote an entire timeline document that explained how First Contact would take place in 2400AD with the Vilani using the Kafers as pawns in a larger strategm to delay their advance into the Bernard's Sector (which truncated the Grand Empire of Stars Rimward somewhat). But, it allowed Terrans a chance to develop an inferior Jump Drive (aka Shuttlewarp).

It would snuff only somewhat my plans for a Traveller Modern game but not terribly. I would also see how Traveller could benefit from a good dose of Hard SF. For only the antebellium of the Third Imperium should be viewed as Golden Age SF the rest is sandbox which mixes all sorts of different subgenres.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi

Maybe its just me but I rather like the stutterwarp drive as I thought it was a very clever means of addressing alot of issue that seem to typically pop up with other space type games. The stutterwarp kind of provided not only a means to limit the map but also a way to avoid having to worry about vectors and stopping, etc when operating in system.

Regards

PF

 

[Sturn]

One of the Challenge articles actually delved into how the stutterwarp actually worked. Of course it was pseudo-science garble to make it sound believable. But, it actually had discussions on such matters as how the light-year limit is not actually being broken while getting from A to B at great then speed of light, etc (something about small, rapid warps leading to the term 'stutterwarp'). I would easily compare its fiction to the fiction of OTU jump drives, Star Wars hyperspace, etc.

Scifi games are describing something that science can not yet describe. Of course it's unbelievable from a scientific stand point. But, it's hard to rate one warp drive explanation over another when they are all just pure ficition and speculation.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Stutterwarp.

I too rather liked stutterwarp.

One of the things I liked about it was that it was based on some quantum theory that was coming out about then, iirc. Been a minute since I looked into the mechanics of stutterwarp, but as I recall, it works on a quantum teleport mechanic (which we have duplicated here on Prime Earth on a very small scale.)

I also loved the map in Traveller: 2300. Oh that map, I swear, much I as I have love for the US Army Rangers and my friend who was serving in it, I never should have traded my box set. Well, live and learn, I can get the CD later.

I for one, never thought it was a pre-Third Imperium history, but its own thing. Which it was and it was so much harder science than the OTU.

 

[Supplement Four]

One of the Challenge articles actually delved into how the stutterwarp actually worked. Of course it was pseudo-science garble to make it sound believable. But, it actually had discussions on such matters as how the light-year limit is not actually being broken while getting from A to B at great then speed of light, etc (something about small, rapid warps leading to the term 'stutterwarp').

Yeah, I remember that. I liked the stutterwarp as well. It sure seemed to "fit" the 2300 universe better than your standard Hyper/Jump/Gravity drive.