Naval Raiding Forces

[Jame]

I've been thinking about this since BMonnery directed me to that 2300AD site about the U.S. Marine Commandoes. But undoubtedly you've noticed that this is about _naval_ raiding forces... This is the first in a two part series.

What constitutes the naval portion of a raiding force? No doubt smaller, faster ships. But how would you design such a force? Stop me before I repeat myself again!

 

[jchurchill]

I guess it depends on the raid and the result to be obtained.

If you are talking about commerce raiding then a single cruiser or a pair of cruiser could do a fair amount of damage to convoys gaurded by DD's and DE's. [e.g. the Emden or the Goeben in 1914]
Perhaps the cruisers would have their own escorts. Perhaps a "pocket dreadnought" design which works well until caught by a superior cruiser force...[see generally the Graf Spee]

If the raid is in support of a planetary raid with goround forces then one needs troopships, destroyers and a few "heany gun" ships. Older battelships or a few heavy cruisers with a light carrier perhaps. Fighting Ships [S-9] has a "strike cruiser" that might do. Or an Azhanti class "frontier cruiser"

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

OK, two things here Jame. Firstly, remember that the difference betwixt a raid and an investiture is the differences between tactical and strategic. In a raid, you're trying to deny an enemy of an asset (even secrecy is an asset, you know). In an investiture, you're denying the enemy control of the area permanently.

Depending on your mission objective, the force-set will vary considerably. Kill a secrect research station? You could probably do that with a ship-of-the-line and escorts. Raid a secret research station for infomation? That would imply a much different force-set.

See what I mean?

 

[vutpakdi]

Not necessarily smaller, faster ships. Faster, longer legged ships, but they don't necessarily have to be smaller given that in the OTU, even the biggest of ships can have those J-6, M-6 drives (with precious little else).

The type of raid and surrounding conditions really would determine the type of ship(s) and size.

Deep penetration raids would call for ships with the ability to do frontier refueling, have low ammunition requirements, and have sufficient stores for repairs and supplies.

Near raids probably would mean ships that would maximize the ability to hit hard and still get away.

Ron

 

[Jame]

Hmmm...

Well, what are the types of raids, and what are the forces scaled to them? I can't give specifics because I don't know what the specifics are - that's why I ask.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

OK, lets talk organization for a minute.

In modern naval usage, Fleets don't go into battle, Task Forces do. A Fleet is an administrative grouping all squadrons in the given deployment area. A Task Force is a group of assets detailled to a given mission for a given period of time.

So, in the OTU, a Fleet is the IN assets in a sector and subsector (i.e. the 273rd Fleet of the Spinward Marches Fleet). Each of fleets are given Squadrons to accomplish their missions. Task Forces are assembled from these squadrons to actually get the work done. Command is usually given the officer commanding the largest capital ship in the task force.

For a raiding mission, look at the target. What do you want to do to it? Destroy it? Great. A Strike Cruiser and escorts ought to do it. Capture it? Then that will take more assets. You will need a ship of the line (That Strike Cruiser might still do), her escorts (several Sloan class should get that done), a ship capable of deploying the assault marines to actually do the capturing, and so on.

Because of variables like this, actually assembling a raid-force in a naval situation is a chancier proposition. Remember, too, that your best intell on the target area is likely to be a minimum of two weeks old...

With all that said, what the hell. Just send a Tigress and blast it out of space!

 

[Tom Schoene]

Wasn't the Azhanti High Lighting design originally meant as a raider (they were Fleet Intruders before they were cruisers)?

Granted, they're not very sensible ships overall, but the J-5 range does make them better raiders thana J-4 ship. I'd expect them to make short jumps (J-2/3) to keep enough fuel in their tanks for an immediate withdrawal. If you allow deep-space jumps, they may well jump to deep-space rally points and meet up with fuel sources like long-period comets rather than trying to frontier refuel from gas giants.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Hey, Tom.
AZH-class cruisers were indeed designed to be fleet raiders. Their J-5 range was one thing that allowed them alot of flexibility in their mission assigments. Still, they were a little thin on the screens, and their ship-killer was a particle accelerator and not a meson gun. So, you pay for capabilities no matter what. That's one reason why Traveller has it all over Star Trek and Star Wars in fleet design rules: No "wonder-widget" technologies so that ships can be heavily armed, virtually impervious, and still drive like a fighter... Though I admit that FASA, when they had the Star Trek franchise, did a great job with the Starship Construction Manuel.

Now, slightly off topic, why does everyone think that deep-space refuelling is done solely on cometary bodies? What about a rotating roster of victualler squadrons as a provisioning task force? A strike carrier, a division of Sloan-class escorts for picket duty, and a full squadron of Tekundu-class fleet fuellers. Wha-la! Instant gas station.

 

[Tom Schoene]

the refuelers have to get their fuel from somewhere. Unless you have an exceptionally large tanker fleet, it's really not economical for raiding operations to be sustained from friendly territory. Frontier refueling from gas giants has a fairly high risk of detection, so that's not likely.

Refuelling a single 60,000-ton J-5 raider needs 30,000 tons of fuel at the suply point. I just did a back of the envelope estimate that suggests that to get that 30,000 tons of fuel 20 parsecs into enemy territory without frontier refueling requires something close to 1,000,000 tons of tankers. And I'm not sure that allows you to recover the tankers at the end of it all.

 

[vegascat]

Refuelling a single 60,000-ton J-5 raider needs 30,000 tons of fuel at the suply point. I just did a back of the envelope estimate that suggests that to get that 30,000 tons of fuel 20 parsecs into enemy territory without frontier refueling requires something close to 1,000,000 tons of tankers. And I'm not sure that allows you to recover the tankers at the end of it all.

Did this take into account drop tanks?

 

[Jame]

How 'bout a pirate-killer force? Where you have to go in to the Vargr Extents to kill a small force of Corsairs with a few bases and about twenty ships, nothing bigger than a 2.5k ton ship?

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Jame]:
How 'bout a pirate-killer force? Where you have to go in to the Vargr Extents to kill a small force of Corsairs with a few bases and about twenty ships, nothing bigger than a 2.5k ton ship?

If I were having to hunt and kill a pirate band, I'd try to offer them some bait they couldn't resist; some merchant loaded with a very valuable cargo, news of which is leaked to the pirate's ears. I'd try to catch them deep inside a gravity well so they can't jump to safety and bring overwhelming firepower to bear as quickly as possible.

You wouldn't want them to get away, because space is big and it's all too easy to hide, especially for Vargr pirates in the Vargr Extents, where they can blend into the background and you can't count on good intelligence.

As for the forces needed: a couple of light cruisers, a pair of escort carriers with fighters, about a dozen destroyer-sized ships, and all the light combatants you can get. The fighters and light combantants keep the enemy from getting away easily while the bigger ships do the killing.

If some of them do get away and you have some idea where their bases are, you then add in some Marine transports with a battalion or so of Marines to dig the pirates out of their holes.

 

[kaladorn]

Oz has the right of it. Fighters also increase your 'eyes' and are small signatures when deployed spread out.

Also, I'd (if I thought I could get them to bite at a given location, like having a ship give a signal GK at the right time from drive failure...) lay out a bunch of stealthed and powered down combat drones or missiles. Then when the enemy got close enough, not only would my Q-ship (the bait) open up, my line of battle come hot, and my fighters fire up and initiate action, I'd also be kicking him hard with a missile wave from very short range.

And yes, you bring the Jarheads for the possible case they're on real estate you like. If not, the spinal mount or some nuclear missiles will solve the pirate bolt-hole problem.

 

[Hal]

Hello Folks,
Regards to the point about pirate hunting...

Without specifics to work off of - and a total lack of familiarity with D20 other than the fact it is presumably based on CT (how's that for hedging? )

All this is based on GURPS TRAVELLER with given sensor ranges etc...

Any task force that has to go up against pirates has to take into account a few things:

1) A pirate ain't a pirate unless he's actively engaged in piracy. This leaves the Navy in a semi-responsive mode.

2) a solitary pirate is likely going to be one that can be handled relatively easily - that is to say, that you can ambush him on the basis of having more assets on the scene than he does. Add into the mixture that it is unlikely the pirate has military grade sensors and you find the military has an edge of sorts.

3) a group of pirates on the other hand, are going to be a little harder to ambush - as they will likely set it up such that they have multiple sensor platforms out in their area of operations.

Here is the kind of anti-piracy task group I'd pick and why:

CVE - carrying 3 fighter groups. Such a ship would be helpful in scouring a region and using the fighters in a "picket" mode. Of those 30 fighters, 4 of them would be hard to detect sensor platforms designed to get in close to an enemy without being spotted. In GURPS terms, they'd be Radically stealthed and cloaked with a small "signature".

DD x 2 - Heavier Warships designed to go head to head with pirate ships. These ships should be designed with enough laser turrets to take out normal missile swarms. In GURPS, I'd arm them with some bay weapons as well as a few heavy laser turrets. The reason for this is to be able to smack at the enemy while he himself is likely limited to ligher weight weapons. If he's not limited to lighter weight weapons - you've at least got "parity" with them.

DE x 8 to 12:
These are going to be your workhorses. Vietnam illustrated one major fact (other nations have learned this lesson with other battles - but this is to illustrate a point). You can't engage a foe who refuses to engage you. If you keep your forces bunched up - your enemy can just go where you are not. The only way to engage your enemy is to find your enemy and engage him as best as you are able with resources at hand.

Here is a question for you: Why are you sending a task force against pirates? Are you sending them against a known base? Are you sending the task force to a region that has had multiple incidents of piracy (after they've happened)?

Some have mentioned the prospect of "luring" a pirate into exposing himself by having a nice big juicy target just where he can have it. I've got a few theories on that and I'll float it past you (in another post of course)

 

[Hal]

Luring out a pirate:

Ok, lets look at the sequence of events prior to the arrival of a task force. The assumption is that the pirate is jump capable, and that the system he hit a prey was a class E through C port. The assumption here is that the traffic is not as well "watched" than in high population worlds with more assets for protection.

Assume that a pirate did attack here. Chances are good that the pirate chose the ship it did hit due to things like solid intelligence (ie it did its homework before striking). It also struck once with the locals complaining and word getting back to the naval high command (else, why are you here with your task force).

Put yourself in the mindset of the pirate. You know that the victims are going to raise some sort of an alarm. You know that they will likely come to where you last struck. Do you really want to stick around for the next one on the off chance that the "cavalry" is either on its way or already going to be there?

As ever in a game of cat and mouse, the mouse wants to be where the cat isn't when it gets its cheese, while the cat is always hopeful it will catch the mouse.

Someday, what would be fun is for a group of people to design what they consider the ultimate "anti-piracy" task group. What would you put into it and why?

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Hal:
Luring out a pirate:
Put yourself in the mindset of the pirate. You know that the victims are going to raise some sort of an alarm. You know that they will likely come to where you last struck. Do you really want to stick around for the next one on the off chance that the "cavalry" is either on its way or already going to be there?

As ever in a game of cat and mouse, the mouse wants to be where the cat isn't when it gets its cheese, while the cat is always hopeful it will catch the mouse.

That's why you offer a bait they just won't resist, and you offer it where they think they can get it, but where you can also ambush them. Not easy, but otherwise you will just wind up chasing around behind them. Unless you can identify and destroy their base (which is historically how most pirates were eliminated) you have to take some chances and get the pirates to come to you.

Someday, what would be fun is for a group of people to design what they consider the ultimate "anti-piracy" task group. What would you put into it and why?

I just told you what I'd want.

I want two big missile cruisers because I'm not interested in a fair fight with the pirates; I want ships big enough to quickly deal with any armed resistance in space. I don't think I need spinal mounts (although a cruiser with a spinal particle accelerator would not go amiss) because most pirate ships aren't big enough to absorb a 50-ton missile bay salvo; a spinal mount would be overkill. And I can kill more pirates in one combat turn with lots of missile bays than I can with just one spinal mount, which reduces the number of pirates that will get away from me after the initial ambush salvo. Besides, Fleet Command is more likely to give up some missile cruisers for pirate hunting than they are a couple of heavy cruisers with spinals.

The CVEs are for tactical recon and "roundup" units, just as has been said by others. A squadron of ten heavy fighters can deal with any pirate ship, and even a pair of them could deal with a 400-dton corsair pretty easily, especially with nuclear missiles.

The smaller warships are for extra firepower, if I have to split up into smaller task groups to scour a subsector.

The Marines are for storming any bases. I probably wouldn't want to just nuke a pirate base; there might be captured ship crews or passengers being held for ransom and I need to rescue them, not vaporize them. There would also be intelligence value in the base and any pirates I could capture. Again, a battalion of Marines should be enough; actually, a company would probably be enough, but a battalion (in company-size transports) lets me split up if I have to, and the extra firepower gets it over with quickly. Remember, I'm not interested in a fair fight with the pirates. I want overwhelming firepower at all levels and occasions.

 

[savage]

I want two big missile cruisers because I'm not interested in a fair fight with the pirates;

A pirate is a sucker and won't live long if he falls for this. Most pirates would work on information leaked by local spies in the merchants or starport authority.
"The spanish armada will be 2 days away...so here is our assumed course for the treasure ship leaving for Spain..."

Better to use grouped 400t or less ships. They'll look like a convoy until things get hot. And this bait ship. Its a really bad job that pays well I hope.

For this purpose, I brought back the Valor from the CT drawing board.
http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/savage/1WorldOrder/CT-Conversions-T20/Valor_MC.html

And a low-end carrier that could pretend to be a tender for SD or corsair.
http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/savage/1WorldOrder/CT-Tenders-T20/LongArm_Carrier_Corsairs.html


Read an article of one of the other threads suggesting that asteroid belts (at least Earths)
is rather sparse. Any thoughts on how to hide if the average asteroid belt is equivalent to ours?


Just a couple thoughts.
Savage

 

[lightsenshi]

A really nasty trick to play on pirates is to use a far trader with pop up fusion gun turrets.

 

[Jame]

Originally posted by lightsenshi:
A really nasty trick to play on pirates is to use a far trader with pop up fusion gun turrets.

Isn't that what the Hive Federation, the GT:AI 3 version, has that cool 400-ton ship do?

Reaching back into the main topic, The Oz has pretty much nailed what I wanted for a specifically naval task force. Savage has another good idea, but it's (to me) less strictly naval - maybe a GM would have that as an excuse and payment for arming the PCs' ship...

 

[savage]

There are two seperate problems. Commerce raiders/privateer/pirate or Naval Raiding forces indicate two seperate activities.

I can secretly have commerce raiders weakening my enemies borders...but if I'm sending in naval task forces it becomes a completely different matter. That's war. Having large missile SDBs capable of sending huge volleys against incoming naval squadrons is perfectly logical but the little commerce raider/privateer/pirates are gonna run.

Cheers.
Savage