Nobility

[Blue Ghost]

Reading the wiki article on nobility, http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Imperial_Nobility , it's my understanding that a Grand and Archduke outrank the monarchy's off spring; princes and princesses.

Does Traveller have a different provision for nobility and monarchy?

 

[whulorigan]

Reading the wiki article on nobility, http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Imperial_Nobility , it's my understanding that a Grand and Archduke outrank the monarchy's off spring; princes and princesses.

Does Traveller have a different provision for nobility and monarchy?

Could you rephrase your question? I am not sure what you are asking.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, how come the monarchs children outrank grand and archduke nobles?

 

[whulorigan]

Well, how come the monarchs children outrank grand and archduke nobles?

The Imperial Family technically stands above and apart from the Nobility. Princes are often granted Noble Titles or fiefdoms of their own in addition to their princely status (such as Prince Varian also being Duke of Sanches, or the Emperor Himself being Archduke of Sylea and Marquis of Usdiki), but Princes generally rank approximately equal to or higher than Imperial Archdukes (and/or have comparable precedence). The title of Grand Duke (which is nominally lower in precedence than Archduke) is a little used title in the Third Imperium. It was in origin a title of the Sylean Federation that was abolished at the founding of the Third Imperium, although several Nobles who have become heads of Imperial Client States (such as the Trelyn Domain in the Vanguard Reaches & Far Frontiers) have born the title.

In T5.09, C6/Nobility Chart (p.35), Archduke and Prince are both listed as C6/Soc=G, and Emperor is listed as C6/Soc=H. But on the Imperial Land Grant Charts listed on p. 65, 68, 696, "Imperial Family" and "Emperor" are both individually listed as C6/Soc=H.

OTOH, on the Master Mods Tables 07-08-09 on p. 703,"Imperial Family" is listed as C6/Soc=h and is distinguished from Emperor, which is listed as C6/Soc=H.

(My guess is that the C6/Nobility Chart on p.35 listing both Archduke and Prince as C6/Soc=G is an errata item, and that "Imperial Family" should be C6/Soc=h and "Emperor" should be C6/Soc=H).


Why do you think that an Archduke/Grand Duke should equal or outrank a Prince?

 

[Blue Ghost]

Traditionally Grand and Archdukes were made to create a line of succession or a steward outside the royal line. A quick glance at a wiki entry states that the title goes back to the Carolignian Empire, and was an honorary given to the lord of an extra large piece of territory within the empire.

To me, and this is just my interpretation so take that for what it's worth, I think the concept was to create a ranking out side the royal family that had political power to rule. As per your post, it's why princes and princesses have, were, or are given other titles assigned to territories (both in the real world and within CT's Imperium).

I also think the idea was to prevent a power grab by any of the monarch's offspring who possibly was unfit to be king / high king / emperor, as well as create a steward who could manage the realm until replacement for a deceased monarch could be put upon the throne.

For the Third Imperium it seems like if Strepheron or any of the other emperors had a son or daughter, and if they were mercenary enough, that they could have travelled space throwing their weight around without a grand or archduke to keep them in check.

 

[whulorigan]

Traditionally Grand and Archdukes were made to create a line of succession or a steward outside the royal line. A quick glance at a wiki entry states that the title goes back to the Carolignian Empire, and was an honorary given to the lord of an extra large piece of territory within the empire.

To me, and this is just my interpretation so take that for what it's worth, I think the concept was to create a ranking out side the royal family that had political power to rule. As per your post, it's why princes and princesses have, were, or are given other titles assigned to territories (both in the real world and within CT's Imperium).

I also think the idea was to prevent a power grab by any of the monarch's offspring who possibly was unfit to be king / high king / emperor, as well as create a steward who could manage the realm until replacement for a deceased monarch could be put upon the throne.

For the Third Imperium it seems like if Strepheron or any of the other emperors had a son or daughter, and if they were mercenary enough, that they could have travelled space throwing their weight around without a grand or archduke to keep them in check.

The usage within the history of the Third Imperium is detailed here:

• Archduke
• Grand Duke

EDIT: Also, when looking at historical usages of the term usually translated into English as "Prince", do not confuse a member of a ruling family with a Sovereign Prince. In German and some other European languages (for example), the terms are entirely different and refer to distinct entities. A German "Prinz" (= "Prince" in English) was one of the immediate family members of a sovereign, but a German "Fürst" (= "Prince" in English also) was a sovereign title of nobility in its own right that usually was junior to a Duke but higher than a Count or Graf (roughly equivalent to a Margrave or Landgrave in precedence).

 

[Blue Ghost]

Yeah, I'm up on the title in the 3I, but I'm curious why the convention is bucked for "princes" and "princesses". They're not listed on the hierarchy. Not that it matters much...I don't recall reading about Strepheron's sons or daughters, only that "his family" fled after his assassination. Whatever that means. It's been a while since I cracked Rebellion.

 

[Condottiere]

Archdukes could have easily been nominated like Charlemagne's Paladins, if we're trying to look for historical precedents.

It seems pretty much a case to layer a hierarchy, possibly from the days when striving for that F social standing gave concrete benefits.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Archdukes could have easily been nominated like Charlemagne's Paladins, if we're trying to look for historical precedents.

It seems pretty much a case to layer a hierarchy, possibly from the days when striving for that F social standing gave concrete benefits.

Well, what if Strepheron or any of the previous emperors had a son or daughter, then either they outrank the Archduke in the area, or it's an unaddressed issue within the CT canon.

 

[aramis]

Well, what if Strepheron or any of the previous emperors had a son or daughter, then either they outrank the Archduke in the area, or it's an unaddressed issue within the CT canon.

Sovereign Crown Princes are really Kings by another name. Same for Sovereign Grand Dukes, like the Duke of Monaco. Both are irrelevant to the 3I, which has only one sovereign - the Emperor.

Heir Crown Princes historically typically have ZERO authority; when they do, it's granted by the sovereign. They hold precedence over everyone but the Crown/Emperor.

Other princes also have zero authority, save when granted by the sovereign. They hold precedence over everyone but the elder princes and the crowns.

Non-Sovereign Grand Dukes are historically, usually relatives of the Crowns. In Traveller, or at least in GT, they're a funky holdover, while in MegaTraveller, they retain the "Relative of the Emperor" connotation. (See also Duchess Margaret)

Archdukes have authority; they hold precedence over all other dukes, probably including grand dukes.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I think crown prince/princess is the eldest in line of succession. But yeah, king in all respects. Saudi Arabia still has a king and a crown prince, or so I last checked.

 

[Condottiere]

In the West European tradition.

Loyalty might be more important than ability and/or meritocracy, so you could seed satrapies with close friends and family.

You can marry off the Imperial progeny to foreign potentates, client states or powerful clans, which sort of removes the need to carve out chunks of the Empire to establish cadet houses.

As for heirs apparent, normally you want to ensure they are competent to rule: you could give them their own realm to govern, and if you have spares, see how well they do at warcraft, both for the experience and ensure the eventual loyalty of the military.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I know what you mean by Warcraft, but I can't help but visualize a 3I heir to the throne sitting at a keyboard and monitor in a major clickfest as he cranks out paladins to counter that orc rush.

Just the way I think.

But more seriously, I guess my real question, and fascination, is that sons and daughters (princes and princesses) have this blurry kind of unaddressed power (or lack thereof) without having any real power unless they're given some other title in addition to being the son or daughter of the monarch(s).

Like WHULorigan stated, Archduke and maybe Grand Duke or prince or prince equivalent titles, but that doesn't make either the child of the monarch. Oh well.

 

[kilemall]

I know what you mean by Warcraft, but I can't help but visualize a 3I heir to the throne sitting at a keyboard and monitor in a major clickfest as he cranks out paladins to counter that orc rush.

Just the way I think.

But more seriously, I guess my real question, and fascination, is that sons and daughters (princes and princesses) have this blurry kind of unaddressed power (or lack thereof) without having any real power unless they're given some other title in addition to being the son or daughter of the monarch(s).

Like WHULorigan stated, Archduke and maybe Grand Duke or prince or prince equivalent titles, but that doesn't make either the child of the monarch. Oh well.

Well again, Rule of Men rather then Rule of Law.

Whatever the Emperor or whoever says has power, does.

Think of it less as a government and more being run like a family business.

 

[Condottiere]

Ah hah.

Custom usually restrains power perquisites that aren't explicitly limited.

Elves are likely to rule by custom, permitting vague references where the limits to absolute power lie.

Men tend to get a written enforceable code.

Orcs rule through sheer presence; attached to a fist.

 

[Blue Ghost]

*nods*

Rule of man, which means if tradition holds, then the children of royalty (ideally), will respect the traditions. Historically that hasn't always been the case. I think China, Germany and Great Britain had royal offspring that were less than savory by mannered convention.

 

[Timerover51]

*nods*

Rule of man, which means if tradition holds, then the children of royalty (ideally), will respect the traditions. Historically that hasn't always been the case. I think China, Germany and Great Britain had royal offspring that were less than savory by mannered convention.

You are forgetting Turkey in there, under the Sultans. And Egypt had more than a few problems with hereditary rulers as well, and I am thinking in recent times from 1850 or so to the overthrow of King Farouk.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, I guess in general, and to keep it Traveller, any son or daughter of the royal family has undefined power, and therefore is both potentially benign and otherwise valueless politically, but also potentially a liability of they cruise the Imperium and make demands.

 

[Condottiere]

Power by association, unless some government institute bestows imperium.