Non-blade melee weapons

[Hemdian]

So, dumb question: What Knowledge do you use for clubs, quarterstaffs, etc?

I'm thinking ...
If "Blades" covers swinging actions (loosely), clubs and quarterstaffs would use "Blades" despite not being edged weapons.
And if "Unarmed" would cover tavern brawls, small improvised items (like beer bottles) would fit here ... albeit with a damage bonus.

Or did I miss something? What do others do?

 

[mike wightman]

In CT every weapon has its own skill so I assume you can have a T5 knowledge for each weapon.

I just stick with handgun, rifle, brawling and melee.

 

[Condottiere]

Queensberry rules.

 

[mike wightman]

I'll stick with Fairbairn's rules thanks...

 

[bookwyrm]

Blunt Weapons: Clubs, Staves, Maces, Morning Stars, War Hammers, others?

Improvised items used as weapons would be under something else, like Brawling or Street Fighting?

 

[Condottiere]

Wine bottle, uncorked.

 

[mike wightman]

Blunt Weapons: Clubs, Staves, Maces, Morning Stars, War Hammers, others?

Improvised items used as weapons would be under something else, like Brawling or Street Fighting?

I refer you back to Mr Fairbairn - well worth reading up on his life story and contribution to the ungentlemanly arts of kill or be killed.

Also watch the videos I posted a link to, swords are often gripped by the blade and the hilt/pommel used as clubs...
and then there is ending him rightly.

 

[aramis]

Blunt Weapons: Clubs, Staves, Maces, Morning Stars, War Hammers, others?

Improvised items used as weapons would be under something else, like Brawling or Street Fighting?

Warhammers and Morning Stars are not blunt, per se. Morning stars, either type (the spiked flail or the spiked ball mace) are piercing weapons.

Morning stars (either type) are a spiked ball as the impactor. One form is simply hafting the ball on a strong haft. They tend to have 2-4cm tall by 1cm to 2cm wide points. If those penetrate, it not only holes the armor, but often the wearer. The flail version is while historical, was apparently seldom used. It's a smaller ball, on a chain, but with similar spikes. Either kind, they are hard to safely simulate. And thus are barred from SCA use. Simple ball maces are allowed (usually a softball on a stick).

There's no safe way to simulate warhammers, either, in SCA or HEMA contexts; due to that lack of safe simulation, the historical warhammer is little represented. The heads aren't big - usually 2-3 cm in radius, either square or circular, with grooves forming a 3 or 4 raised point head. The points are to weaken plate by piercing it, and chain by splitting links. The heads are often 5-15cm in length, and often have a bec on the back (a war-pick) for heavy helms or multiple layers of plate.

They're brutal, and penetrate both soft and hard armors reasonably well.

 

[bookwyrm]

Warhammers and Morning Stars are not blunt, per se. Morning stars, either type (the spiked flail or the spiked ball mace) are piercing weapons.

Morning stars (either type) are a spiked ball as the impactor. One form is simply hafting the ball on a strong haft. They tend to have 2-4cm tall by 1cm to 2cm wide points. If those penetrate, it not only holes the armor, but often the wearer. The flail version is while historical, was apparently seldom used. It's a smaller ball, on a chain, but with similar spikes. Either kind, they are hard to safely simulate. And thus are barred from SCA use. Simple ball maces are allowed (usually a softball on a stick).

There's no safe way to simulate warhammers, either, in SCA or HEMA contexts; due to that lack of safe simulation, the historical warhammer is little represented. The heads aren't big - usually 2-3 cm in radius, either square or circular, with grooves forming a 3 or 4 raised point head. The points are to weaken plate by piercing it, and chain by splitting links. The heads are often 5-15cm in length, and often have a bec on the back (a war-pick) for heavy helms or multiple layers of plate.

They're brutal, and penetrate both soft and hard armors reasonably well.

Much appreciated. Most of my melee weapon knowledge is from fantasy, so a healthy dose of reality can only help my Traveller game be a little more realistic/better.

 

[Condottiere]

It's pretty much how much money each side has, and how much they'll spend on armour.

The most famous example may be when Flemish militia whipped French knights, using stuff like spiked staffs, vaguely translated.

So, two by four, with a bunch of nails.

 

[Rupert]

Warhammers and Morning Stars are not blunt, per se. Morning stars, either type (the spiked flail or the spiked ball mace) are piercing weapons.

Morning stars (either type) are a spiked ball as the impactor. One form is simply hafting the ball on a strong haft. They tend to have 2-4cm tall by 1cm to 2cm wide points. If those penetrate, it not only holes the armor, but often the wearer. The flail version is while historical, was apparently seldom used. It's a smaller ball, on a chain, but with similar spikes. Either kind, they are hard to safely simulate. And thus are barred from SCA use. Simple ball maces are allowed (usually a softball on a stick).

Flanged maces are also hard to safely replicate, given that they're (roughly) an array of blunt axe blades or hammer spikes, depending on time and place. Even blunted they'll break bones through mail and concuss the heck out of someone if you get a nice hit on a helmet.

 

[mike wightman]

Watch the video, it dispels a lot of these myths. Including testing "live" weapons against armour plate and chain mail.

<edit> forgot that it is in a different thread

Dequitem

I am Dequitem, an armoured fighter and filmer of non-choreographed knight fights like those: For combat sports the rule is: "You will fight the way you train, so train the way you want to fight". This principle applies to my training as well as to my short films. On my channel you will not...

www.youtube.com

 

[atpollard]

Watch the video, it dispels a lot of these myths. Including testing "live" weapons against armour plate and chain mail.

What video?

 

[mike wightman]

This one, I lose track of threads these days.

Dequitem

I am Dequitem, an armoured fighter and filmer of non-choreographed knight fights like those: For combat sports the rule is: "You will fight the way you train, so train the way you want to fight". This principle applies to my training as well as to my short films. On my channel you will not...

www.youtube.com

 

[aramis]

Flanged maces are also hard to safely replicate, given that they're (roughly) an array of blunt axe blades or hammer spikes, depending on time and place. Even blunted they'll break bones through mail and concuss the heck out of someone if you get a nice hit on a helmet.

Actually, I've seen over a dozen SCA Flanged Maces...

The construction:
Rattan shaft. Two or three layers of cheap camping pad to make a non-pointed flange, usually about 6"×2" to 6"×3", and a 6" half-round "clapper" of rattan. The clapper is taped to the "edge" of the flange with duck tape. The assembled flange is ducktapped to the shaft. They have about the same feel as an SCA rattan sword, but for safety, as a mass-weapon, are limited to a 90° swing.

Note also - SCA axes are also sometimes made that way, other times simply stack rattan to make the blade. Again, 90° limit.

 

[Rupert]

Actually, I've seen over a dozen SCA Flanged Maces...

The construction:
Rattan shaft. Two or three layers of cheap camping pad to make a non-pointed flange, usually about 6"×2" to 6"×3", and a 6" half-round "clapper" of rattan. The clapper is taped to the "edge" of the flange with duck tape. The assembled flange is ducktapped to the shaft. They have about the same feel as an SCA rattan sword, but for safety, as a mass-weapon, are limited to a 90° swing.

Note also - SCA axes are also sometimes made that way, other times simply stack rattan to make the blade. Again, 90° limit.

I must admit, even though you mentioned SCA in your post I blanked on that. My experience is in 'authentic' reenactment (which often isn't, depending on the people) and not recent, and as that means full-weight weapons, maces, axes, and hammers are generally heavily restricted (in my experience, anyway).

 

[aramis]

I must admit, even though you mentioned SCA in your post I blanked on that. My experience is in 'authentic' reenactment (which often isn't, depending on the people) and not recent, and as that means full-weight weapons, maces, axes, and hammers are generally heavily restricted (in my experience, anyway).

Those SCA rattan are about the same weight as live steel for swords, and only a bit under for the spears, polearms, axes and maces. They rely upon the width (1.25" minimum) to reduce the penetration. And, excepting mass weapons, it's full speed full force. The 90° limit on mass weapons prevents full speed/force... and broken bones.

 

[whartung]

he 90° limit on mass weapons prevents full speed/force... and broken bones.

I take it that this limit is how far back you're allowed to bring the weapon before swinging onto your opponent? Basically strives to shorten the swings?

 

[aramis]

I take it that this limit is how far back you're allowed to bring the weapon before swinging onto your opponent? Basically strives to shorten the swings?

yep. Note, however, Sir Georg's axe-swing through 15° was enough force to rock me onto my back foot... physically lifted my forward foot when it hit my shield. (we were the only two heavy fighters at that demo...)