On this day....

[Drakon]

TAS News: Depot Corrldor (1511 A686354-F) Date: 221-1117

The Naval High Command of Corridor Fleet today announced the arrival of Emperor Lucan's Transfer Order.

To help save the lmperium from the rebel Dulinor, the announcement said, Corridor Fleet Is to transfer to Zarushagar within a month.

Local authorities expressed confidence that sufficient assets would remain in Corridor sector defend the region against Vargr raids.

For Corridor sector, this is when "The Troubles" began.

Questions:
1) Would Imperial nobles be allowed to join or take command of a fleet or squadron?
2) What happens to ships that are in drydock, and well on their way through refit? Are they left behind with orders to follow the fleet coreward once they are space worthy? Stay behind to assist the reserve fleets in protecting the sector? Cannibalized to get as many ships out as possible? A combination?
3) How many drydocks would a planet like Lemish have for naval purposes? (A-79568C-C, a million people, Naval base, 60th, and 105th fleets, subsector capital)

I know I had more, but I can't find them at the moment

 

[mike wightman]

1 - that would depend upon the noble. Is the noble an active duty admiral in the IN? If not then no. Is the noble an ex-Admiral that could be called back into service?

2 - ships in drydock and being refitted are not available to carry out the order

3 - according to the rules in FFW any IN base has to be TL 15 and is capable of repairing battle damaged squadrons.

 

[Timerover51]

For Corridor sector, this is when "The Troubles" began.

Questions:
1) Would Imperial nobles be allowed to join or take command of a fleet or squadron?
2) What happens to ships that are in drydock, and well on their way through refit? Are they left behind with orders to follow the fleet coreward once they are space worthy? Stay behind to assist the reserve fleets in protecting the sector? Cannibalized to get as many ships out as possible? A combination?
3) How many drydocks would a planet like Lemish have for naval purposes? (A-79568C-C, a million people, Naval base, 60th, and 105th fleets, subsector capital)

I know I had more, but I can't find them at the moment

Given the time lag in the order and how long it takes to get to Capitol, why would the Corridor even bother going?

 

[Drakon]

Given the time lag in the order and how long it takes to get to Capitol, why would the Corridor even bother going?

This is a very good question and one I have asked myself. But, they do. That is what the history of the civil war tells me in Survival Margin, Rebellion Sourcebook and others.Trying to stay within the written history, such as it is.

 

[aramis]

Why would they go? Because they were called - Lucan's call for forces was within days, and goes out over the J6 network.

What the DGP guys didn't do well was the travel math.

The J6 news takes a few months to get to corridor. Then, they have to proceed at J4, which is about 2× as long (because the number of sideways hops in order to get from A to B increases as jump range decreases).

around 90 Pc at 5.5 Pc/wk in jump and 2 day refuels... call it about 153 days to get the information, and then 3.2 Pc/wk in on the ships ... about 253 days inbound... over a year lag.

Also, that they did go tells us the fleets are not homogenously local. It almost demands that the fleet be pretty well non-local to the operational location. Loyalty to the Imperium first.

 

[Timerover51]

Why would they go? Because they were called - Lucan's call for forces was within days, and goes out over the J6 network.

What the DGP guys didn't do well was the travel math.

The J6 news takes a few months to get to corridor. Then, they have to proceed at J4, which is about 2× as long (because the number of sideways hops in order to get from A to B increases as jump range decreases).

around 90 Pc at 5.5 Pc/wk in jump and 2 day refuels... call it about 153 days to get the information, and then 3.2 Pc/wk in on the ships ... about 253 days inbound... over a year lag.

Also, that they did go tells us the fleets are not homogenously local. It almost demands that the fleet be pretty well non-local to the operational location. Loyalty to the Imperium first.

That does assume that the Corridor Fleet is located at one point when the summons arrives, that the J-6 does not have to worry about roughly 6 months of life support or is simply passing the message along to another ship, and that the Fleet does not have to worry about life support resupply along the way. Personally, I would put the fastest the Fleet could get to Capital at closer to two years, with the initial information that the commander received already about six months out of date at a minimum.

Methinks that the DGP guys were thinking of some form of Faster-Than-Light communication, which is definitely not in the canon.

 

[Drakon]

Okay, I have been told what the DPG material says, I have not seen it personally.

The TAS entry I posted is from Survial Margin, as is this one.

Depot Corridor (1511 A686354-F) Date: 242-1117 <<Aug 30>>

The assembled Corridor Fleet departed on its voyage to Zarushagar sector today, leaving defense of the sector to a scattering of reserve squadrons.

Extensive plans for continued border patrols and preemptive operations "virtually guarantee" the security of the sector, according to a highly placed naval official.

The Transfer Order reached Corridor on 221-1117 .Corridor Fleet vastly over strength for the territory patrolled, was staffed by personnel from throughout the Imperiurm.

It's mission, one it had pursued for centuries, was to protect the passage through Corridor of lmperial commerce and communication.

Although abandoning the mission was difficult, the strength of the Imperial Order, and the crisis facing the Empire made the Fleet's crew anxious to comply.

TCS gives me a ship yard capacity of 1,100 tons which is just shy of 4 gazelles. Another author reminds me that Corridor is over strength and the naval yards have been subsidized, so probably bigger.

I don't see too much of a problem in communication time for the fleet, I imagine it spreading out like spam all along the naval communications network throughout the subsectors, to be announced and executed on a specific date.

 

[McPerth]

Given the time lag in the order and how long it takes to get to Capitol, why would the Corridor even bother going?

Mostly because military rarely refuses this kind of orders. Remember at the time of the order arriving Depot/Corridor it is likely that most people are unaware of Strephon's death, and no one questions Imperial orders.

OTOH, remember Corridor is one of the most powerful fleets of the Imperium (as told in many sources), and its role is not only to defend this vital part of the Imperium, but also as a deep reserve for troubles (mostly thought for the Marches). So I guess they will even find "normal" to be summoned to a hot spot in times of troubles.

Think on the Legions sent from Hispania to fight the Batavian Revolt agains Rome in 70 AD. Despite the time lag and having to march over 2000 km, they obeyed and marched to combat without delay.

Also, that they did go tells us the fleets are not homogenously local. It almost demands that the fleet be pretty well non-local to the operational location. Loyalty to the Imperium first.

I always defended that this is the standard Imperial policy: not allow the squadrons to be too attached to the place they are stationed.

This not only make Imperial loyality first, but also helps to standardize tech (if the same ship may be deployed at several spots of the Imperium, tech must be standardized) and helps to keep Imperial culture, against having the individual squadrons "going native", being more attached to their deployement región, and allowing the tech to diverge.

That does assume that the Corridor Fleet is located at one point when the summons arrives, that the J-6 does not have to worry about roughly 6 months of life support or is simply passing the message along to another ship, and that the Fleet does not have to worry about life support resupply along the way. Personally, I would put the fastest the Fleet could get to Capital at closer to two years, with the initial information that the commander received already about six months out of date at a minimum.

While I agree times are too forced, I would not expect the Corridor Fleet to march as a single body. Once orders where received, I'd expect the main body (stationed in Corridor) to leave for the front, while other squadros going as they received the orders and assembled some squadorns.

Okay, I have been told what the DPG material says, I have not seen it personally.

The TAS entry I posted is from Survial Margin, as is this one.

Depot Corridor (1511 A686354-F) Date: 242-1117 <<Aug 30>>

The assembled Corridor Fleet departed on its voyage to Zarushagar sector today, leaving defense of the sector to a scattering of reserve squadrons.

Extensive plans for continued border patrols and preemptive operations "virtually guarantee" the security of the sector, according to a highly placed naval official.

The Transfer Order reached Corridor on 221-1117 .Corridor Fleet vastly over strength for the territory patrolled, was staffed by personnel from throughout the Imperiurm.

It's mission, one it had pursued for centuries, was to protect the passage through Corridor of lmperial commerce and communication.

Although abandoning the mission was difficult, the strength of the Imperial Order, and the crisis facing the Empire made the Fleet's crew anxious to comply.

TCS gives me a ship yard capacity of 1,100 tons which is just shy of 4 gazelles. Another author reminds me that Corridor is over strength and the naval yards have been subsidized, so probably bigger.

I don't see too much of a problem in communication time for the fleet, I imagine it spreading out like spam all along the naval communications network throughout the subsectors, to be announced and executed on a specific date.

Depots are described in MT as extrensive naval installations, so I'd expect its yard capacituy to be many times what could be expected according TCS, mostly from automatized work and temporary inhabitants, probably not counted in the UWP.

MT also tells us that in Depots there are large amounts of mothballed ships, that in this case I'd expect to be recomissioned ASAP, something the in MT does not seem to happen until the Vargr take the Depot and begin to recomission the ships themselves.

Neither do I expect personnel for those refitted ships to be a problem, as, as the Corridors are described, I'd expect a Naval Academy on each of them, and as Corridor is described I'd expect many Naval retirees to end up living there, so having enough reserve personnel for those ships (they had no such problems when the Fleet went to fight FFW, and this war itself, only a decade before, should have left many reserve veterans).

So, I'd expect Corridor to be more than able to defend itself even after the Main Fleet marched to the battle, and hte fact it was not makes me think there was some high spheres interested in communications with Behind the Claw cut off. Maybe Norris himself maneuvered to allow COrridor fall and so not having to take sides...

 

[Drakon]

While I agree times are too forced, I would not expect the Corridor Fleet to march as a single body. Once orders where received, I'd expect the main body (stationed in Corridor) to leave for the front, while other squadrons going as they received the orders and assembled some squadrons.

I figure that they are using Depot's sceduled announcement of the orders to begin pulling the various fleet elements from the many naval bases to funnel in and join up with the main fleet along the trade routh.

MT also tells us that in Depots there are large amounts of mothballed ships, that in this case I'd expect to be recomissioned ASAP, something the in MT does not seem to happen until the Vargr take the Depot and begin to recomission the ships themselves.

Taking these two factors into account, it occurs to be that it may be possible for Depot to be so vaste that neither side can control the entire system or bone yard. The Varg make enough penetrations to do their thing, the Depot personell are able to push them back and field (space?) an insurgency.

Or to put it another way, Rebellion sourcebooks and the TAS news feed from Survival Margin, as well as the as yet unseen DPG material as "the offical story." This battle was fought, this side lost, so many people were killed, while in actual fact, the real history was a bit more complicated than that.

So, I'd expect Corridor to be more than able to defend itself even after the Main Fleet marched to the battle, and hte fact it was not makes me think there was some high spheres interested in communications with Behind the Claw cut off. Maybe Norris himself maneuvered to allow COrridor fall and so not having to take sides...

That seems a bit cold blooded. Personally I suspect Zhodani propaganda and intelligence, Naval miscalculations that end up making the reserve fleet look weak/slow/indecisive, and bad tactical planning all contributed to a loss of Corridor.

 

[McPerth]

Taking these two factors into account, it occurs to be that it may be possible for Depot to be so vaste that neither side can control the entire system or bone yard. The Varg make enough penetrations to do their thing, the Depot personell are able to push them back and field (space?) an insurgency.

Or to put it another way, Rebellion sourcebooks and the TAS news feed from Survival Margin, as well as the as yet unseen DPG material as "the offical story." This battle was fought, this side lost, so many people were killed, while in actual fact, the real history was a bit more complicated than that.

Depot/Corridor surrendered to the Vargr, specifically to the Vaenggvae faction of the Windhorn Alliance that occupied it, and its naval personnel is cooperating with this faction and ships recommissioned under their command (Challenge 38, page 40).

AFAIK nothing is told about possible recomissioning of the Depot mothballed ships before this.

That seems a bit cold blooded. Personally I suspect Zhodani propaganda and intelligence, Naval miscalculations that end up making the reserve fleet look weak/slow/indecisive, and bad tactical planning all contributed to a loss of Corridor.

Cold blooded? maybe, but this way the strategists use to take their decisons, and hot blooded ones use not to reach he position to take them.

The Zhodani are quite busy at this time in internal reorganization or troubles, and still beaten from the FFW. This aside, such an operation would take time, and they didn't receive the news of the Assassination and further problems until quite latter than COrridor itself. I don't believe tey can really affect this...

According MT:RS (page 33), aside from supporting whole fleets, Naval depots have 3 fleets each on it: the Training Fleet (incluiding the fabled "enemy squadrons, considered among the best of the IN), the Mothball Fleet and the Security Fleet. I don't expect those fleets to march to the front, and even if the Training Fleet did, the Security fleet is likelynot to be too mobile (in strategic sense), and the Mothball Fleet did obviously not leave.

Just those fleets should be able to repeal what the Vargr, not known by their large Battleships nor battlefleets could throw against them.

So, unless there was some human interest on it, the Vargr invasion would have not been able to take Corridor, and the recoissioned fleet would have been able to counterattack in just a few months. MT material gives some hints that Norris used the Vargr to keep it aside, be it by helping them to occupy Corridor or just by taking advantage of their occupation.

 

[jcrocker]

According MT:RS (page 33), aside from supporting whole fleets, Naval depots have 3 fleets each on it: the Training Fleet (incluiding the fabled "enemy squadrons, considered among the best of the IN), the Mothball Fleet and the Security Fleet. I don't expect those fleets to march to the front, and even if the Training Fleet did, the Security fleet is likelynot to be too mobile (in strategic sense), and the Mothball Fleet did obviously not leave.

Just those fleets should be able to repeal what the Vargr, not known by their large Battleships nor battlefleets could throw against them.

So, unless there was some human interest on it, the Vargr invasion would have not been able to take Corridor, and the recoissioned fleet would have been able to counterattack in just a few months. MT material gives some hints that Norris used the Vargr to keep it aside, be it by helping them to occupy Corridor or just by taking advantage of their occupation.

Given all of the above, especially the large number of ships stationed in the Depot system, I just don't find it plausible that Depot fell the way it did.

If you poke around the Traveller Map, there don't seem to be any nearby polities that could put the number of required capital ships into the line against Corridor - and for Corridor to fall in the given time, the Vargr would have just about had to all have been on maneuvers just outside the Imperium, going for a joyride or something.

 

[Timerover51]

I will make one more comment, and then shut up.

Look at the timing from the arrival of the Transfer Order on 221, and the Fleet Departure on 242. That is 21 days from the order arrival to departure. That is enough time to send couriers to everything within 4 to 6 parsecs of Fleet HQ. That is it. Now that means that the entire Corridor Fleet was either at the Fleet HQ or one jump away. Even if they are using some form of Faster-Than-Light communication, which is clearly not and never has been in canon, the farthest away any fleet elements can be from Fleet HQ is 3 jumps, unless you somehow shorten the jump time to significantly less that one 7 day week.

The Fleet was supposed to cover the entire sector. So they cover the entire sector by having everything at one location!! Put bluntly, the is beyond the bounds of total idiocy, even for some of the Imperium admirals.

Now, tell me again how the ENTIRE Corridor fleet leaves in 21 days.

 

[McPerth]

Given all of the above, especially the large number of ships stationed in the Depot system, I just don't find it plausible that Depot fell the way it did.

If you poke around the Traveller Map, there don't seem to be any nearby polities that could put the number of required capital ships into the line against Corridor - and for Corridor to fall in the given time, the Vargr would have just about had to all have been on maneuvers just outside the Imperium, going for a joyride or something.

Again, unless there are some human factions interested on it, be it to keep claiming orders don't arrive or are imposible to obbey (Norris) or to keep a flank less threatenned by the Vargr, instead of an organized IN fleet (Vland), or, of course, both of them...

I will make one more comment, and then shut up.

Look at the timing from the arrival of the Transfer Order on 221, and the Fleet Departure on 242. That is 21 days from the order arrival to departure. That is enough time to send couriers to everything within 4 to 6 parsecs of Fleet HQ. That is it. Now that means that the entire Corridor Fleet was either at the Fleet HQ or one jump away. Even if they are using some form of Faster-Than-Light communication, which is clearly not and never has been in canon, the farthest away any fleet elements can be from Fleet HQ is 3 jumps, unless you somehow shorten the jump time to significantly less that one 7 day week.

The Fleet was supposed to cover the entire sector. So they cover the entire sector by having everything at one location!! Put bluntly, the is beyond the bounds of total idiocy, even for some of the Imperium admirals.

Now, tell me again how the ENTIRE Corridor fleet leaves in 21 days.

Several points here, (and I hope you will not really sut up, as your posts are as welcome as anyone else's):

Remember that the Transfer Order was released to public on 221-1117, but it's likely to have been received (via j6 courriers) quite earlier, and even if not, when the assassination reached Depot it is likely Depot fleet began to take measures to concentrate and increase its readiness just in case.

(NOTE: The following points are fully dependent on my take about how Imperial Navy is organized and works).

As said in earlier posts, Corridor fleet is a dual mission one: to defend this vital zone and as reserve, mostly for troubles Behind the Claw.

This makes me think that, unlike other fleets, it is likely to keep a strong reserve in Depot, just in case it is needed elsewhere, as, again due to the communications time lag, it is likely to be needed ASAP when so called. If so, this part of the fleet, quite powerful on its own, is kept ready to jump for any hot spot at short notice, and 21 days does not seem a too short time span in this sense.

OTOH, its motball fleet is likely to be quite strong at this point, as it does not only have the usual mothballed fleet, but it's quite likely to also have several ships mothballed, either because they were damaged, obsolete or just not needed, at the end of FFW (remember, just about a decade before). Again, if this is correct, it is also likely that when the first news of trouble reached Depot, they began to refit some ships (or at least to prepare them for it), again just in case (the time lag for communications makes, IMHO, those preemtive measures quite likely).

According MT:RS, the first news of the assassination reached Depot about 260-1116. So, when the order arrives (221-1117) they have had some time to take some measures, probably concentrating the "mobile" fleet (I mean the one ready to march to any hot spot) and reinforceing it with demothballed ships (once again, due to the description of Depots, I expect the UWP be quite missleading on its shipyard construction and refitting capacity), so that they can react quickly to any event.

Once this fleet has departed, Depot is likely to keep refiting the mothball fleet to replace it in the defense role, and It's unlikely any Vargr fleet can stand against a single IN CruDron, less so in this impromtu ofensive (just look at the tiny force the Vargr fleet is in FFW, this time having been prepared for years with Zhodani help to give you an idea of what could this unprepared force be).

And I expect the Vargr to have less replacement capacity that the Corridor Fleet, as they are unlikely to have large mothballed fletes as Depot probably has.

Of course, as said, that's my take on IN standard procedures, and YMMV...

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

I will make one more comment, and then shut up.

Look at the timing from the arrival of the Transfer Order on 221, and the Fleet Departure on 242. That is 21 days from the order arrival to departure. That is enough time to send couriers to everything within 4 to 6 parsecs of Fleet HQ. That is it. Now that means that the entire Corridor Fleet was either at the Fleet HQ or one jump away.

The Fleet was supposed to cover the entire sector. So they cover the entire sector by having everything at one location!! Put bluntly, the is beyond the bounds of total idiocy, even for some of the Imperium admirals.

Now, tell me again how the ENTIRE Corridor fleet leaves in 21 days.

thats assuming you take the sidebar to mean that the whole 1000-odd ship Corridor fleet was sat in Depot, waiting for the call.

It could well be that, given the delay between the word of the assassination happening and the Transfer Order, that the Grand Admiral of Corridor, on his own authority, summons the outlaying units and concentrates the Corridor fleet at Depot, the system he knows any orders would be routed though, leaving only the light units elsewhere. Such an action would be well within what i'd expect a sector admiral to do, given the time lags in OTU command loops (Nelson took his fleet form blockading the French fleet in the Mediterranean, to the Caribbean, and then back to the Atlantic coast of Spain, during the lead up the Battle of Trafalgar, and no one questioned his authority to take his fleet so far form where the Admiralty thought it was)


the other option is the news article is mistaken, and the fleet wasn't concentrated, and that only those elements in Depot departed on 242. the rest of the fleet departed form wherever it happened to be when the orders caught up with them, so the Corridor fleet arrived at the front in dribs and drabs, "penny packets", and not as a single cohesive whole. the news article may have either simply been wrong, or was deliberately misleading for propaganda purposes.

 

[aramis]

I will make one more comment, and then shut up.

Look at the timing from the arrival of the Transfer Order on 221, and the Fleet Departure on 242. That is 21 days from the order arrival to departure. That is enough time to send couriers to everything within 4 to 6 parsecs of Fleet HQ. That is it. Now that means that the entire Corridor Fleet was either at the Fleet HQ or one jump away. Even if they are using some form of Faster-Than-Light communication, which is clearly not and never has been in canon, the farthest away any fleet elements can be from Fleet HQ is 3 jumps, unless you somehow shorten the jump time to significantly less that one 7 day week.

The Fleet was supposed to cover the entire sector. So they cover the entire sector by having everything at one location!! Put bluntly, the is beyond the bounds of total idiocy, even for some of the Imperium admirals.

Now, tell me again how the ENTIRE Corridor fleet leaves in 21 days.

It doesn't. There are 15 numbered fleets, and 8 reserve fleets (since those are subsector forces). Departing in 21 days is 3 jumps of fast couriers - up to 18 Pc - two subsectors, easily.

The 15 numbered fleets are there because it's needed - a full sector's worth in half a sector. Pulling the 8 within 18 parsecs via J6 Couriers can have them all going on day 20, barring bad jumps and/or shore leave.

That's the "Corridor Fleet" that barrels for Capital. You've also got the corridor half as defended as the local admirals felt was needed, and second rate reserve fleets filling the roles as the remaining 8 numbered fleets spread out.

 

[Drakon]

The Zhodani are quite busy at this time in internal reorganization or troubles, and still beaten from the FFW. This aside, such an operation would take time, and they didn't receive the news of the Assassination and further problems until quite latter than COrridor itself. I don't believe tey can really affect this...

I don't mean directly playing a role. I see the Zhos doing their best to keep anti-Imperial animosity high amoungst the coreward Varg. I see them supplying the Varg with intel, and very limited resources to assist the Varg in any anti-Imperial campaign. Even if and especially if, they are dealing with other issues, such as internal troubles and cleaning up after FFW. Attacking and weakening the Imperium serves the Zhos interests, and whether the Varg do it or anyone else, it still serve the Zhodani. If the Varg and Imperium fight, both sides lose ships and resources while Zhodane does not.

Not a large effort and probably a long going project the Zhos have been running for who know how long.

Varg have two things that are troublesome, their "Chosen One" religion, where they believe they were created by Grandfather to rule the galaxy, and their entertainment devices that can fine tune into an audience's emotional state. I can see the Zho exploiting both items.

 

[Drakon]

thats assuming you take the sidebar to mean that the whole 1000-odd ship Corridor fleet was sat in Depot, waiting for the call.

It could well be that, given the delay between the word of the assassination happening and the Transfer Order, that the Grand Admiral of Corridor, on his own authority, summons the outlaying units and concentrates the Corridor fleet at Depot, the system he knows any orders would be routed though, leaving only the light units elsewhere. Such an action would be well within what i'd expect a sector admiral to do, given the time lags in OTU command loops (Nelson took his fleet form blockading the French fleet in the Mediterranean, to the Caribbean, and then back to the Atlantic coast of Spain, during the lead up the Battle of Trafalgar, and no one questioned his authority to take his fleet so far form where the Admiralty thought it was)


the other option is the news article is mistaken, and the fleet wasn't concentrated, and that only those elements in Depot departed on 242. the rest of the fleet departed form wherever it happened to be when the orders caught up with them, so the Corridor fleet arrived at the front in dribs and drabs, "penny packets", and not as a single cohesive whole. the news article may have either simply been wrong, or was deliberately misleading for propaganda purposes.

What I see happening is that the Naval Courier Service distributes copies of orders, from the Emperor to all Naval bases in Corridor, to be opened and acted up on 221-1117. The News report Mentions Depot because Depot is the Corridor Sector equivalent of say, the Pentagon.

I think this solves the timing problem, plus explains why it only took 3 weeks to get moving, as I am sure that most base commanders opened the orders immediately and started executions early.

Base commanders get the orders, they detail to the fleet commanders the navigation to join up with the main fleet. The fleet leaving Depot is the lead or main fleet body and the rest of the elements will meet up in route.

At J2, the next stop for the fleet would be Naadi, at J4, Lemish would be the first jump from Depot. Elements of the 60th and 105th fleets at Lemish would wait and leave with the Main body.