Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Has any ever put into their Traveller universe other earlier space-faring races, which might also have visited Earth, and transplanted flora, fauna, and humans to other worlds?
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Other Earlier Space-Faring Races
- Thread starter Timerover51
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I just go by what the library data says about Traveller history.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
My Traveller back-history closely parallels Andre Norton's... to the point where the "ancients" are simply the collective name for the further-back of the many and varied "fore-runner" civilizations!
Yes, the Droyne are a regressed fore-runner species... but Grandfather is simply their name for the collective symbol of their dimly-remembered high-tech ancestors.
There is no immortal proto-Droyne, no pocket-universe, or any of the rest of that "fantasy-insert" garbage!
I never understood why they put it into the game, or how they ever thought it was a good idea... unless they had been passing around a little too much "strong herb".
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
In the MegaTraveller Referee's Guide there is a wonderful sidebar about starfaring races that predate the Ancients.
DGP even introduced an earlier race they called the Primordials.
The alien race presented in the Shadows double adventure is a bit of an enigma, the race that built the pyramid structures is no longer around.
DGP even introduced an earlier race they called the Primordials.
The alien race presented in the Shadows double adventure is a bit of an enigma, the race that built the pyramid structures is no longer around.
DangerousThing
SOC-13
Yes, IMTU there is a lot of alien races that preceded man, a few still around.
They range from Ctulhu and his ilk, to the people who terraformed the area of the galaxy the players live in, to races only known by a handful of artifacts.
Even things built well tend to fall apart with the passing of many years.
IMTU the xeno-archeologists name the forerunner races as FC-23 and so forth. Occasionally they will find that what they thought was two different races was really one or visa-versa. And there are no Droyne at all. I don't use many aliens in the current time of ny game.
They range from Ctulhu and his ilk, to the people who terraformed the area of the galaxy the players live in, to races only known by a handful of artifacts.
Even things built well tend to fall apart with the passing of many years.
IMTU the xeno-archeologists name the forerunner races as FC-23 and so forth. Occasionally they will find that what they thought was two different races was really one or visa-versa. And there are no Droyne at all. I don't use many aliens in the current time of ny game.
The race that build those pyramids was the firs thing that came to my mind, although, strictly speaking, I don't think they were a star faring race.
Mission on Mithril mentions some drawings in a cavern, although I think those were of Aslan. Who drew them, how they got there are all unanswered--even though the obvious answer is that some Aslan came across Mithril, scrawled their image there and then left the place because it was too dang cold, it might also be interpreted as an act of a native or alien race now long gone.
What I'm saying is that there's lots of room for other races predating "humaniti", the Sylean Federation, and everyone else, and not necessarily interfering with the Ancients/Droyne goings on epochs before.
Timothy Ferris in his "Life Beyond Earth" lays out some arguments as to how we, in present day, may have missed intelligent life existing as we do now.
Their civilization merely petered out and faded away before we rose. For Traveller this would imply artifacts hanging around somewhere. So the time period of when we or someone else flourish may not coincide with another intelligent space faring species. The implication is that an overlay is a rarity, and happily Traveller reflects such a rarity.
I've several adventure concepts that deal with civilizations that reached a certain technological level, and then disappeared. Various reasons.
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BlackBat; I think if you look at the overall story arc of all of the adventures the Ancients are kind of lurking in the background. There's hints of their past dropped in here and there. So, when "Secret of the Ancints" comes around, it's meant as a finale to all of the adventures.
At least that's how I read it (the various third party addons not withstanding). The whole Grandfather thing didn't bother me. I mean to me Traveller was an extension of all my reading, writing and gaming experiences. "Secret of the Ancients" was just another adventure regardless of how it was framed.
I think part of it is your perspective on the game. Not to get too off topic, but Traveller as established, although meant as a GURPS like game for sci-fi (i.e. D&D in space), lots of the adventure seeds and adventures themselves lend themselves towards geo-political scenarios set amongst star faring races. For my groups I took them all over, even outside the galaxy. I even took one group into a high fantasy setting with ACRs, grenades and everything else. Having said all that, I will admit that Adventure 12 did seem marginally out there at the end.
Oh well. Just me.
Having seen some of the "Life after People" series, it's a serious question whether any remnant of an ancient starfaring civilization would remain in any sort of state that would be of interest to the players. Weathering on planets large enough to have it, volcanism where it exists, tectonics (same), meteor impacts, even just the impact of random chance over the course of hundreds of millenia would conspire to render most remains of ancient cultures irrelevant to anyone but academics and collectors.
Even for something built to withstand the ages, odds are good that it's under a few hundred feet of dirt below the pavement of some city or other settled lands that might object to excavation even if they knew it was there, under the sands of some vast now-barren region that no one has the slightest interest in occupying (and therefore unlikely to be found by chance), or just plain lost like a needle in an unimaginably huge haystack below the surface of some vacuum world or planetoid. Archaeologists with powerful densitometers and the kind of funding needed to find such needles in such haystacks would be well-equipped to find those remnants, but for the average adventurer the odds are quite literally on a par with winning the lottery (and possibly as remunerative) - unless of course they cheat a bit and poach on known sites, and even then the prize is most likely to be something of value to no one but collectors and academics.
Then too, the kind of technology one would expect to survive hundreds of millenia might not be recognizable as technology even in a TL 15 society. A tool or weapon might consist of parts made of a few hundred molecules each, so densely woven together that it appears to be nothing more than a solid rod or bracelet under all but the most sophisticated tech-15 analysis. A computer functioning with telepathic inputs and outputs might not be recognizeable outside of Zhodani space as anything but a small brick of some strange dense plastic, even under x-ray analysis. That solid sphere of unknown material might be an inert robot that once used a techonogical variation on psychokinetic techniques to manipulate the world around it.
On the other hand, there are many habitable worlds, and there are likely to be many ancient minor races that rose to spacefaring status - even some that rose to impressive levels of technology without stumbling across jump technology (perhaps as a result of the star's jump shadow confusing early theorists, perhaps as a result of biological sensitivity to some aspect of jump). Throwing in some three-thousand-years dead minor civilization with some interesting tidbit to find or an old asteroidal base to search makes it a bit more manageable to me, as I can confine the long-term ramifications to that system.
And too, the "six races" concept can be interpreted as applying to current races, leaving room for more recent small pocket empires of long-extinct species to build stories around.
I like Grandfather, and I like the Grandfather concept - as the tall tales of the lone survivor of an ancient culture of unbelievably advanced technology and an unbelievably fierce war. He wasn't the principal architect he claims to be. He was one of the few with the resources to build a "bomb shelter" and the wit to stay there rather than yield to the temptation to come out and get involved while his species was destroying itself in war, possibly the only one not to fall victim to sheer boredom or random luck over the course of three hundred millenia - and possibly not: who's to say there isn't another survivor telling different tall tales to adventurers in Zhodani space or clandestinely playing manipulative psychosocial experiments in Aslan space. In any event, he's pretty much free to tell whatever story he thinks the players will buy; pulling the yokels' legs has always been an amusing pastime.
Even for something built to withstand the ages, odds are good that it's under a few hundred feet of dirt below the pavement of some city or other settled lands that might object to excavation even if they knew it was there, under the sands of some vast now-barren region that no one has the slightest interest in occupying (and therefore unlikely to be found by chance), or just plain lost like a needle in an unimaginably huge haystack below the surface of some vacuum world or planetoid. Archaeologists with powerful densitometers and the kind of funding needed to find such needles in such haystacks would be well-equipped to find those remnants, but for the average adventurer the odds are quite literally on a par with winning the lottery (and possibly as remunerative) - unless of course they cheat a bit and poach on known sites, and even then the prize is most likely to be something of value to no one but collectors and academics.
Then too, the kind of technology one would expect to survive hundreds of millenia might not be recognizable as technology even in a TL 15 society. A tool or weapon might consist of parts made of a few hundred molecules each, so densely woven together that it appears to be nothing more than a solid rod or bracelet under all but the most sophisticated tech-15 analysis. A computer functioning with telepathic inputs and outputs might not be recognizeable outside of Zhodani space as anything but a small brick of some strange dense plastic, even under x-ray analysis. That solid sphere of unknown material might be an inert robot that once used a techonogical variation on psychokinetic techniques to manipulate the world around it.
On the other hand, there are many habitable worlds, and there are likely to be many ancient minor races that rose to spacefaring status - even some that rose to impressive levels of technology without stumbling across jump technology (perhaps as a result of the star's jump shadow confusing early theorists, perhaps as a result of biological sensitivity to some aspect of jump). Throwing in some three-thousand-years dead minor civilization with some interesting tidbit to find or an old asteroidal base to search makes it a bit more manageable to me, as I can confine the long-term ramifications to that system.
And too, the "six races" concept can be interpreted as applying to current races, leaving room for more recent small pocket empires of long-extinct species to build stories around.
I like Grandfather, and I like the Grandfather concept - as the tall tales of the lone survivor of an ancient culture of unbelievably advanced technology and an unbelievably fierce war. He wasn't the principal architect he claims to be. He was one of the few with the resources to build a "bomb shelter" and the wit to stay there rather than yield to the temptation to come out and get involved while his species was destroying itself in war, possibly the only one not to fall victim to sheer boredom or random luck over the course of three hundred millenia - and possibly not: who's to say there isn't another survivor telling different tall tales to adventurers in Zhodani space or clandestinely playing manipulative psychosocial experiments in Aslan space. In any event, he's pretty much free to tell whatever story he thinks the players will buy; pulling the yokels' legs has always been an amusing pastime.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
My apologies for posting such a poorly thought out and clearly impossible concept. I also apologize for the time you wasted in reading the original post.
I think he was trying to expand on your concept.
DangerousThing
SOC-13
May I ask what's wrong with you post? I thought it was interesting.
IMTU, Yaskodray is the sorcerer's apprentice, not the sorcerer, so finding, then meddling with humanity has been both his greatest feat and failure, this is rather "metadata" as it doesn't really change any canonical history, just modifies it some.
These are to be detailed more in "Investigative History" adventures, some are:
1) "I shall die, but I shall not surrender": The last words of a one of the leaders, a human, of the revolt of Human/Droyne alliance against Grandfather, which precipitated the catastrophic final war. Grandfather saw it more as pest control, while his version is official, there is the hidden history of the losing side; which also ties in with the Guild World Droyne.
2) Homo Intercedent (colloquially - the False Dawn People): A star farring branch of humaniti 60-70,000 years ago, responsible for the the genetic silmilarity of many human peoples, as well as the resettlement of Terra after the extinction of H. Sapiens during the Toba Event ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory ). Of course this makes a total mockery of Solomani racism, and the theory was held back by the Solomani Hypothesis and the the studies, almost complete, including archeological finds on Terra, were destroyed by the coming of the virus. Why did they fall?
3) Estigarribia's Epiphany: How the Vilani Saved Humanity: How did the Terrans win the Nth Interstellar War? Why did Estigarribia overthrow the Terran Confederation? What happened to the Forbidden Technologies of the Rule of Man? What is the foundation of the "Nobility" of the Third Imperium's Feudal Technocracy? The answers may be found in a long suppressed historical work from the Long Night that includes excerpts from Estigarribia's lost journal...
These are all adventure leads to be discovered by daring Quatermain-esque, scholar/adventurers ready to bring truth to the light.
These are to be detailed more in "Investigative History" adventures, some are:
1) "I shall die, but I shall not surrender": The last words of a one of the leaders, a human, of the revolt of Human/Droyne alliance against Grandfather, which precipitated the catastrophic final war. Grandfather saw it more as pest control, while his version is official, there is the hidden history of the losing side; which also ties in with the Guild World Droyne.
2) Homo Intercedent (colloquially - the False Dawn People): A star farring branch of humaniti 60-70,000 years ago, responsible for the the genetic silmilarity of many human peoples, as well as the resettlement of Terra after the extinction of H. Sapiens during the Toba Event ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory ). Of course this makes a total mockery of Solomani racism, and the theory was held back by the Solomani Hypothesis and the the studies, almost complete, including archeological finds on Terra, were destroyed by the coming of the virus. Why did they fall?
3) Estigarribia's Epiphany: How the Vilani Saved Humanity: How did the Terrans win the Nth Interstellar War? Why did Estigarribia overthrow the Terran Confederation? What happened to the Forbidden Technologies of the Rule of Man? What is the foundation of the "Nobility" of the Third Imperium's Feudal Technocracy? The answers may be found in a long suppressed historical work from the Long Night that includes excerpts from Estigarribia's lost journal...
These are all adventure leads to be discovered by daring Quatermain-esque, scholar/adventurers ready to bring truth to the light.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Surely you are just being either generous or more likely, jesting.
Earlier non-Ancient starfaring civilizations are an excellent way to throw your players a figurative curve ball.
Let's face it, the Ancients haven't been a "mystery" for over thirty years now. GDW told us too much about them very early on in CT and every other edition and publisher has kept up the drumbeat. Everyone already has trouble separating meta-game knowledge from in-game knowledge and there's too much meta-game information about Yaskodray & Co. available to ignore.
The fact that the Ancients are so well known to both players and player-characters can allow a canny GM to perform a bit "mental judo" by using the players' preconceptions against them. You show the players a "small-a" ancient technological artifact, they immediately presume it's a "capital-A" Ancient technological artifact, they run with their presumptions, and you gleefully pull the rug out from under them later on.
Traveller has always been about challenging perceptions, about wheels-within-wheels, so playing with the players' presumptions fits neatly into the game's thinking.
Let's face it, the Ancients haven't been a "mystery" for over thirty years now. GDW told us too much about them very early on in CT and every other edition and publisher has kept up the drumbeat. Everyone already has trouble separating meta-game knowledge from in-game knowledge and there's too much meta-game information about Yaskodray & Co. available to ignore.
The fact that the Ancients are so well known to both players and player-characters can allow a canny GM to perform a bit "mental judo" by using the players' preconceptions against them. You show the players a "small-a" ancient technological artifact, they immediately presume it's a "capital-A" Ancient technological artifact, they run with their presumptions, and you gleefully pull the rug out from under them later on.
Traveller has always been about challenging perceptions, about wheels-within-wheels, so playing with the players' presumptions fits neatly into the game's thinking.
selunatic2397
SOC-12
I have my games time set at just before 10,000ad...that leaves an enormous amount of artifacts that have an old and almost forgotten human colony/empire origin...
The relics are worth something to someone that is always several jumps and an adventure or three away.
Keeps my player happy, as my lone player at the moment is a noted astrophysicist vargr and quite the novice archeologist.
The relics are worth something to someone that is always several jumps and an adventure or three away.
Keeps my player happy, as my lone player at the moment is a noted astrophysicist vargr and quite the novice archeologist.
No, I agree with him, most of your posts are interesting to read.
It seems to me, IMO, that you have a thin skin when it comes to others questioning your comments.
To me when I am discussing something that I am not an expert on, I question. It helps me understand what the other individual is saying or trying to say.
We all do not have the same back ground and knowledge base so we do not always see things the same way.
Like for several years, I had a running joke about 'Grandfather' and that everything he said was lies. He just got too much powerful to deal with.
Darn it there he goes again, deleting my negative words about him. (sigh)
Don't let it get to you, some of the fellow here are a bit brash in their attitude, but they are still good guys.
Dave Chase
The "Life after People" show did stipulate that our construction materials differed from our ancestors, who used more prosaic substances, and therefore modern materials simply don't hold up like those of our forefathers. Ergo modern society has a problem with establishing remnants of civilization.
The point being that I wouldn't discount your concepts in any way shape or form. This is science fiction after all. Don't let some TV show sway you from the idea of a long dead space faring race somewhere. Heck, I've got a couple adventure drafts that are based on that very idea, and I intend to submit them for publishing.
The point being that I wouldn't discount your concepts in any way shape or form. This is science fiction after all. Don't let some TV show sway you from the idea of a long dead space faring race somewhere. Heck, I've got a couple adventure drafts that are based on that very idea, and I intend to submit them for publishing.
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shadowcat20
SOC-12
Some of the FASA stuff delt with earlier cultures like the Sky Raiders.
Also during the long night lots of marginal planets would have died off so there is always the chance of discovering old ruins in odd corners where there are not class A-C starports. Old rock miner towns in belts, and abandoned ships floating around.
Who knows what the Zho find on their march coreward, and maybe there are human planets that were purged of life in the 2000 worlds area. I have always liked the 3D effect with placing sectors. Maybe they are in layers with one or two paths between planets straight up or down to reach the next layer. Then you could get into another old empire and do the H.Beam Piper Star Viking thing. Grandpa moved the humans around but there is lots of room for other races to develop, expand, and die.
Also during the long night lots of marginal planets would have died off so there is always the chance of discovering old ruins in odd corners where there are not class A-C starports. Old rock miner towns in belts, and abandoned ships floating around.
Who knows what the Zho find on their march coreward, and maybe there are human planets that were purged of life in the 2000 worlds area. I have always liked the 3D effect with placing sectors. Maybe they are in layers with one or two paths between planets straight up or down to reach the next layer. Then you could get into another old empire and do the H.Beam Piper Star Viking thing. Grandpa moved the humans around but there is lots of room for other races to develop, expand, and die.
We may also be atypical in our construction habits by comparison to other sophonts... Some cultures today still build in stone, even tho' they've got more "modern" building materials.
It's pretty scary looking at various buildings abandoned mid 20th C and seeing the decay, yet, by the same token, there are ruins of pre-roman sites still with walls standing.
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