Pirates of Drinax... Selling a ship

[DickNervous]

So I am running the Pirate of Drinax campaign and the group just finished the first part and in the process have acquired Redthane's ship, a 200 ton Far Trader in pretty decent condition (sensors destroyed and some hull damage) and have been able to get it back to Drinax, but now they need to decide what to do with it.

Since they are able to get it back to a starport, I assume that the stripping option of 10 tons of spare parts / 100 tons of ship is not applicable. And the Campaign Rules section states how it is difficult to sell an entire ship and that most pirates keep it and use it for either storage or adding to their fleet or donate to a planet to curry favor.

Wouldn't it be possible for them to sell the ship to a pirate gang? Or even the shipyards at Theev? And if so, at what price? 50% of full value? 25%? I figure that at least the weapons and drives have to be worth something.

I figure they have the following options:

1. Keep it for themselves to add to their fleet as either a legit trader or pirate ship.
2. Donate it to a planet to curry favor.
3. Return it to Admiral Darokyn who Redthane stole it from to gain his favor
4. Sell it, either whole or parts

The base Far Trader with two twin pule lasers is, for simplicity, 53MCr new. The drives alone are 22Mcr. So if they were to sell it on Theev I figure they could get probably 10-15MCr cash for it, or if they traded it to the shipyards in exchange for upgrades to their current ship, maybe 20MCr?

Does this make sense or am I way off base?

 

[Murphy]

25-50% sounds more like what it would cost to buy a stolen ship from a fence (assuming such fence exists).

Work from a real-life example. A simple Google search for "fencing stolen cars" shows an article about a police operation where "approximately 160 stolen cars worth more than $8 million" were recovered. It goes on to say that "carjackers and thieves ... would typically be paid $4,000 to $8,000 for a stolen car by street-level fences, who sold cars up the chain to higher-level fences." Do the math.

Now, that is cars. Stealing a 200-ton starship is probably akin to stealing a plane, or small seagoing ship. I doubt anyone on Earth who steals an airplane might actually be able to re-sell it because anyone who has the money (governments, corporations) will not be willing to invest in stolen property.

I'd say if you do find a buyer, you could make maybe 1-2% of the ship's cost in cash, plus the buyer would owe you a favor (unless the stolen ship brings them trouble, then you could well have acquired an enemy).

Afterthought 1: they could take effort to create a false identity and reputation for the ship, then sell it as they would a legitimate ship. Then I guess they can re-sell it to a corporation for 25-50% of the value. But I'd say it would involve actually making use of the ship for a few years.

Afterthought 2: selling to a pirate gang could work if you can convince them that they want this ship, but I doubt you would get more than 5% still, unless perhaps you barter it for other stolen property. Selling to Oghman raiders might work too, but that would be a quest of its own.

 

[tzunder]

I am sure Threev would buy the bits, but it's pretty low tech for them, but let's go with at least 50%. On the other hand I think they are missing a huge opportunity. With two ships and a trusted crew, they can explore at twice the speed, meet up now and again, exchange news and 'stuff', and indeed if you are cool with it, roll up a second party and run one session with group A and then the next with group B, and repeat..

Or, if you and they don't want to do that, recruit a crew, and keep the second ship with you, some of the later Drinax adventures have multi ship combats and like any battles, having two vessels massively increases your options and the potential fun the GM can bring to the game.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Not saying it is impossible, but what are the odds that a group of career criminals that steal and kill for a living will act like respectable brokers and not just take what they want from some want to be criminal trying to sell them questionable goods?

Might also be hard to convince them you are not undercover agents trying to catch them.

I'd think lots of role playing potential and good rolls would be needed.


Using anything close to the shipyard cost for ships and parts is quite unrealistic to me.

Keep in mind that the price you are starting from is for brand spanking new goods, not used goods.

Keep in mind the the price you are starting from includes the costs of installation, testing, warranties and certification...

 

[RandyB]

How much cash do you want them to have and manage? That's what they net from the sale. Adventures along the way (dealing with brokers/buyers/etc.) simply make it more interesting than a series of merchanting die rolls.

But be fair - they did capture the ship, and by selling it they are giving up a lot of operational flexibility. Have an OOC conversation with them about the options and make sure everyone is on the same page about the different possibilities.

In the end, a few MCr can go a long way toward upgrading an existing ship and keeping it running, which puts a campaign on a different footing - and not a bad one.

 

[DickNervous]

Y'all brought up some very good points that I had missed (which is the whole reason I posted here).

While having a 2nd ship would be great for them, I don't think that either they or I am ready to be coordinating that at this time, so I would rather they either store it or sell it. This is my first campaign in 20+ years and I am still getting myself organized.

I think I will present them with the following options:

1. Return it to the Admiral so that one of the most powerful pirates in the Trojan Reach owes them a "big" favor.
2. Donate it to a system.
3. Store it on Drinax for later use.
4. Sell it to the shipyard at Theev for parts.

If they sell it, my goal is to give them enough money to get the Drinaxi Harrier fixed up a bit and hire a full crew for it since there are only 3 players (and 1 NPC that I have been running). They have already hired an Engineer (they have pilot, astrogation, and gunner covered). The shipyard at Theev won't really care about the fact that the ship is stolen since 90% of the ships they work on probably are. So I will have one of them haggle using their Persuade/Gamble skills with the shipyard rep.

Since I want them to use the money to fix up their ship I will pull a "Gamestop" on them. They get the full amount they negotiate in "store credit" or half the amount in cash. I'll start at 8MCr (15% of the ships full value, in store credit). If they do amazing role playing and great skill checks, they will get that up to 13.5MCr (25%, or 6.75MCr cash).

To fully repair their ship (according to the adventure) it will take 20 ship shares which they equate to 10MCr (each share is 500kCr). So if they nail the haggling they would have enough to fix it up completely.

Though all this leads me to another question. How long would it take for that work to get done?

 

[simonh]

They could always offer to sell it back to Darokyn, rather than just give it back. They're under no partiocular obligation to give it to hime, and simply handing it over might even be taken as a sign of weakness. Offering him first refusal at a fair price (say 25% of current value, so maybe 15% of full value) would at least be courteous and maybe they could negotiate on issues other than just money.

Simon Hibbs

 

[DickNervous]

They could always offer to sell it back to Darokyn, rather than just give it back. They're under no partiocular obligation to give it to hime, and simply handing it over might even be taken as a sign of weakness. Offering him first refusal at a fair price (say 25% of current value, so maybe 15% of full value) would at least be courteous and maybe they could negotiate on issues other than just money.

Simon Hibbs

That is another option I can present to them.

Thursday night is going to be interesting...

 

[aramis]

historical and canonical admiralty prize courts both pay around 10% of depreciated values.
Fences should pay less ... fenced ships should sell for about prize values, so fences should pay no more than 5% of depreciated values.

 

[DickNervous]

historical and canonical admiralty prize courts both pay around 10% of depreciated values.
Fences should pay less ... fenced ships should sell for about prize values, so fences should pay no more than 5% of depreciated values.

How would you calculate depreciated value?

 

[rancke]

historical and canonical admiralty prize courts both pay around 10% of depreciated values.

That's contrary to the impression I've gotten from numerous Napoelonic Sea Warfare books that I've read, and I don't see why this should be the case. The ownership of prizes change legally as they are legitimate spoils of war, so the buyer acquires legal title to the ship. Why should he pay less than the full value for it? Especially since there would be an admiral with a deep personal interest in the prize selling for as much as possible. Wikipedia claims that the Navy bought warships at 'a fair price'.

What is your source of this information?


Hans

 

[aramis]

That's contrary to the impression I've gotten from numerous Napoelonic Sea Warfare books that I've read, and I don't see why this should be the case. The ownership of prizes change legally as they are legitimate spoils of war, so the buyer acquires legal title to the ship. Why should he pay less than the full value for it? Especially since there would be an admiral with a deep personal interest in the prize selling for as much as possible. Wikipedia claims that the Navy bought warships at 'a fair price'.

What is your source of this information?


Hans

Records of the US admiralty courts, US Naval Academy Press Textbooks ... Only some privateers got to keep their prizes as personal property. Most claimed it for their flagging nation. Most of the materials I've looked at have been 19th and 20th C.

You may be looking at different eras and/or nations. Also, keep in mind that admiralty prize courts also handle salvage. (Modern ones handle almost exclusively salvage and barratry recoveries, as UNCLOS prohibits piracy and doesn't exactly support modern privateers.)

Wikipedia notes that salvage claims typically go for 10 to 25% of market value at time of sinking.

 

[rancke]

Records of the US admiralty courts, US Naval Academy Press Textbooks ... Only some privateers got to keep their prizes as personal property. Most claimed it for their flagging nation.

The prize laws of the US may have been designed to support it while it was fighting with its back towards the wall. If so, it sounds like quite a departure from standard practice.

You may be looking at different eras and/or nations.

Most of what I've read has concerned the British.


Hans

 

[Putraack]

So I am running the Pirate of Drinax campaign and the group just finished the first part and in the process have acquired Redthane's ship, a 200 ton Far Trader in pretty decent condition (sensors destroyed and some hull damage) and have been able to get it back to Drinax, but now they need to decide what to do with it.

...

Wouldn't it be possible for them to sell the ship to a pirate gang? Or even the shipyards at Theev? And if so, at what price? 50% of full value? 25%? I figure that at least the weapons and drives have to be worth something.

I figure they have the following options:

1. Keep it for themselves to add to their fleet as either a legit trader or pirate ship.
2. Donate it to a planet to curry favor.
3. Return it to Admiral Darokyn who Redthane stole it from to gain his favor
4. Sell it, either whole or parts

...

Does this make sense or am I way off base?

I had similar thoughts at this point (I've run Drinax part 1 twice). One group took option 2, the other went for option 4. I decided to use the percentages on p.16 of the campaign starter book, but cut them in half for selling ships. Reading some of the above commenters, I probably should have gone for a quarter (so, 2.5%-7.5%).

 

[Dagrill]

I think I will present them with the following options:
1. Return it to the Admiral so that one of the most powerful pirates in the Trojan Reach owes them a "big" favor.
2. Donate it to a system.
3. Store it on Drinax for later use.
4. Sell it to the shipyard at Theev for parts.

If they sell it, my goal is to give them enough money to get the Drinaxi Harrier fixed up a bit and hire a full crew for it since there are only 3 players (and 1 NPC that I have been running). They have already hired an Engineer (they have pilot, astrogation, and gunner covered). The shipyard at Theev won't really care about the fact that the ship is stolen since 90% of the ships they work on probably are. So I will have one of them haggle using their Persuade/Gamble skills with the shipyard rep.

Since I want them to use the money to fix up their ship I will pull a "Gamestop" on them. They get the full amount they negotiate in "store credit" or half the amount in cash. I'll start at 8MCr (15% of the ships full value, in store credit). If they do amazing role playing and great skill checks, they will get that up to 13.5MCr (25%, or 6.75MCr cash).

To fully repair their ship (according to the adventure) it will take 20 ship shares which they equate to 10MCr (each share is 500kCr). So if they nail the haggling they would have enough to fix it up completely.

Though all this leads me to another question. How long would it take for that work to get done?

Looking at MgT Scoundrel you could get 1 - 50% value based on a DM of -8,
TCS gives repair time at a class A or B starport as equal to the percentage of original construction time (29 weeks for a 200 -300t ship; so 10/190*29 = 1.5 weeks).

Off topic, I noticed you only have 3 or 4 players like me. One thing I do is give my players a ship based character and a boarder/ground based character, it might be worth looking at.

Kind Regards

David

 

[DickNervous]

Looking at MgT Scoundrel you could get 1 - 50% value based on a DM of -8,
TCS gives repair time at a class A or B starport as equal to the percentage of original construction time (29 weeks for a 200 -300t ship; so 10/190*29 = 1.5 weeks).

Off topic, I noticed you only have 3 or 4 players like me. One thing I do is give my players a ship based character and a boarder/ground based character, it might be worth looking at.

Kind Regards

David

I never thought of looking in Scoundrel! Good tip.

What I did is have them haggle with the rep from Kallos Shipyards on Theev with a cash price of 2MCr to start (or 4MCr worth of store credit for repairs only from them). The top end was 4MCr cash (8MCr credit). They were able to haggle between role playing and some skill checks to 6MCr of repairs, or 12 ship shares worth as per the PoD scenario.

As for the party, I have 2 "patrons" who helped them get started who I can bring in if really needed. They also now have Krssh in their group along with an NPC (Agent) that I rolled as if he were a player to fill in some skill gaps and add a bit of firepower when needed.

In addition to that they have hired an engineer for the ship and are in the process of offering the surviving crew from Redthane's ship jobs. So they will have a full crew for their ship. Captain/Pilot (PC), navigator/gunner/backup pilot (PC), gunner (PC), pilot, 3 engineers, navigator, 3 marines, Krssh, and the last PC. They also got themselves a TL13 autodoc, which was a pretty smart move.

On a related note, if one happens to kill the captain of a ship (while it is docked in a starport) and acquire their security codes, does that make the ship theirs? Or if they tried to take it would the authorities try to stop them?

 

[Timerover51]

As I see it, your biggest problem with trying to sell a captured ship is finding someone with more than 1 or 2 per cent of the ship's initial price with ready cash.

 

[DickNervous]

As I see it, your biggest problem with trying to sell a captured ship is finding someone with more than 1 or 2 per cent of the ship's initial price with ready cash.

True, and I would think that a shipyard on the pirate planet would be the type of place that would have that. Sort of like the biggest chop shop in New York City.

Besides, I encouraged them to do "store credit" since as a party they only had 2 ship shares and it was going to be tough to get the Drinaxi Harrier fixed up like that.