Planet busters

[bardbear]

Using just Imperial Tech (TL 15 max), is there any way to convert a terrestrial world into an asteroid belt?

The reason for the question is I want to introduce a group with an extremely long range perspective (a project taking millennia is no big deal) that needs raw materials for their culture, but is totally spaced based and gravity adverse.

 

[far-trader]

Sure, if time is no big issue, just build some maneuver drives on another world (preferably solid rocky and airless) of close to the same size, change its orbit to a close orbit of the other, let mutual gravitational attraction tear both worlds apart into bite sized chunks. The more drives you strap on the sooner you get them dancing.

 

[rancke]

Sure, if time is no big issue, just build some maneuver drives on another world (preferably solid rocky and airless) of close to the same size, change its orbit to a close orbit of the other, let mutual gravitational attraction tear both worlds apart into bite sized chunks. The more drives you strap on the sooner you get them dancing.

Well, I speak subject to correction, but it is my firm impression that the sheer scale of the forces necessary to move objects of planetary size is such that it is as close to impossible (with TL15 technology) as makes no difference. Even if time is no object.


Hans

 

[Enoki]

Just drop a small moon into the planet, say one maybe a third to a quarter the size at some tens of thousands of kilometers an hour and you have instant asteroid belt. If it has one orbiting it, simply add enough energy to change the moon's orbit enough to let gravity take over and plunge it into the planet. Say, some large fission or fusion bombs or just a bunch of maneuver engines properly placed.

 

[far-trader]

Well I didn't really run any numbers, it might be that the actual engineering of the project would be practically impossible. How big a terrestrial world are we talking? How big a companion would be needed for tidal action to break up the world? How much maneuver thrust would be needed to change its orbit? How many drives and power plants, fuel, computers, crew, etc. etc. would that take? How long is a piece of string?

I see no other feasible method though. Near-C rocks won't do it. Weapons won't do it.

 

[DangerousThing]

I see no other feasible method though. Near-C rocks won't do it. Weapons won't do it.

TL 15 tech should have *some* way of destroying a planet by reducing it to rocks.

We have some fairly powerful bombs today, given several more TLs I'm sure that we could come up with some planet-buster bombs *if* they were needed. Even if the bombs needed a higher TL, perhaps they could make some huge and inefficient planet busters?

Remember these guys think in terms of millennium.

And maybe it would be easier if they go for Pluto-sized planets, especially the really cold ones. Would a bomb that released a *lot* of energy as heat followed up by shock cause the difference in temperature to help crack it?

 

[bardbear]

Well I didn't really run any numbers, it might be that the actual engineering of the project would be practically impossible. How big a terrestrial world are we talking? How big a companion would be needed for tidal action to break up the world? How much maneuver thrust would be needed to change its orbit? How many drives and power plants, fuel, computers, crew, etc. etc. would that take? How long is a piece of string?

I see no other feasible method though. Near-C rocks won't do it. Weapons won't do it.

Thanks for the input folks. Dan, that was my thought as well - bombardment with small objects just won't be enough to shatter a Venus sized, or even Mars sized world. I too was thinking of using a moon to do the job, to get it close enough, though it may take multiple attempts (using multiple moon-sized objects) to succeed.

 

[Dragoner]

Reminiscient of the PKD story about the e-bomb, where super genius socio-path kids turn the earth into a giant bomb.

 

[shadowlord]

Would a Darrien Type Star Trigger do it? We know what it can do o a sun but what about to a solid object like a moon or planet.

 

[Omnivore]

A space based civilization at TL15 is pretty much a Kardashev Type II civilization with the population and economy of a sector (no not a sub-sector, a full sector) in a single system.

 

[mike wightman]

Sorry but no.

TL15 is stil a type I civilsation on that scale, antimatter production doesn't begin until TL16 and that is still type I.

A type II is capable of building a dyson sphere - that's Traveller Ancient level technology TL30+ IIRC.

 

[rancke]

A space based civilization at TL15 is pretty much a Kardashev Type II civilization with the population and economy of a sector (no not a sub-sector, a full sector) in a single system.

None of the methods mentioned in the article you linked to are available at TL15.


Hans

 

[Omnivore]

See this is the problem that pops up when you mix reality with Traveller. With regards to antimatter production - we're doing that now, though admittedly in very small quantities - at roughly TL8.

 

[Omnivore]

Clean your eyeballs and read down to Dyson swarm - follow the dyson swarm link. Remember that the Kardashev index is based on the amount of usable energy a civilization has at its disposal.

 

[rancke]

Clean your eyeballs and read down to Dyson swarm - follow the dyson swarm link. Remember that the Kardashev index is based on the amount of usable energy a civilization has at its disposal.

I did. A technology depends on the ability to implement it on a scale that is feasible. There's no evidence and no reason to believe that a Dyson Swarm is feasible at TL 15.

Nor is there any reason to believe that being able to deploy a Dyson Swarm will enable anyone to break up a planet.


Hans

 

[rancke]

See this is the problem that pops up when you mix reality with Traveller. With regards to antimatter production - we're doing that now, though admittedly in very small quantities - at roughly TL8.

So are they in Traveller. The key phrase is 'very small quantities'. If you can't produce anti-matter in quantities that can be used for practical purposes, your civilization is not at a tech level where anti-matter production is a mature technology. You can build small toy steam engines at TL1 (for sufficiently crude definition of 'engine'), but you can't build steam-driven locomotives until TL4.


Hans

 

[Omnivore]

Try FF&S or MT, designing and constructing a space habitat and the use of solar sails are both available at a fairly low tech level (much lower than 15). That gives you both a satellite and a statite technology, from that point it is not a matter of technology, it is simply a matter of the scale of production.

However, expecting 7 tech levels of advancement to not include scaling up of AM production while accepting all of the other advances is swallowing a camel and straining at a gnat.

The relationship between Kardashev civilization level and the topic of this thread is simply one of resources and energy.

A civilization at Kardashev type II level has sufficiency of both to turn a pair of planets in adjacent orbits into Orion drive propelled objects.

 

[rancke]

Try FF&S or MT, designing and constructing a space habitat and the use of solar sails are both available at a fairly low tech level (much lower than 15). That gives you both a satellite and a statite technology, from that point it is not a matter of technology, it is simply a matter of the scale of production.

And the scale of the production is the crux of the matter. You blithely assume that the materials to build a significant number of habitats will be available, that it will be economically feasible to build them, and practical to apply the collected energy to the purpose of moving a world-sized object.

However, expecting 7 tech levels of advancement to not include scaling up of AM production while accepting all of the other advances is swallowing a camel and straining at a gnat.

That's a matter of opinion. What is a matter of canonical fact, OTOH, is that practical anti-matter power production is in the proto-type stage at TL16 and only matures at TL17.

The relationship between Kardashev civilization level and the topic of this thread is simply one of resources and energy.

And application. A lever is no use without a fulcrum. Going from having a space station in orbit around the sun collecting power to being able to apply that power to move worlds is quite a step.

A civilization at Kardashev type II level has sufficiency of both to turn a pair of planets in adjacent orbits into Orion drive propelled objects.

That would seem to follow from the definition. What is a mere unproven assumption, though, is that a TL15 civilization is a Kardashev Type II civilization. Even assuming for purposes of argument that a TL 15 society would be able to build Dyson Swarms doesn't prove anything. Being able to create Dyson Swarms is a consequence of being a KTII civilization. It doesn't follow that being able to create Dyson Swarms makes you one; just that being unable to do so proves you're not one.

There's an extra problem in Charted Space. It seems extremely unlikely that any civilization with Imperial tech (i.e. having had TL15 for no more than a century at most) could be a Kardashev Type II civilization.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Would a Darrien Type Star Trigger do it? We know what it can do o a sun but what about to a solid object like a moon or planet.

IIRC the Darrian Star trigger needed a deep probe to be inside the star (protected by heavy ablative armor not to be immediatly burned). So, I don't think it to be usable on a rock planet.

 

[Omnivore]

No longer a contributor to this board.