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Pondering starship evolution

TL=9
  • 240*0.3+30+(25+7+13)+9+20+2=178 … 240-178=62 internal payload … 102 fuel … D/D/D=J3/3G + 1x Boxes external
Started working up the spreadsheet details for this variant ... and ... it just doesn't have the payload fraction.
It's "not quite big enough" for what it's trying to be, as a merchant starship.
Basically, the 240 ton form factor is simply "too tight" to manage a useful payload fraction (at all) while configured for J3/3G performance.
It has "plenty" of external load capacity while configured for J2/2G (140 tons of it!) ... but that's not the point. There's a "cheaper" version with C/C/C drives that yields J2/2G performance with a "useful" payload fraction just fine. As a J3/3G starship, it could transport 2x high passengers ... and nothing else ... which a "viable commercial merchant" does not make (especially if you're wanting to engage in speculative goods arbitrage).

Consequently, I'm thinking that any kind of J3/3G "clipper" version really NEEDS to be a larger hull form factor (and therefore drive letters set) in order to raise the payload fraction up to "sustainable" levels of ticket revenues that can defray operational expenses.



The 240 ton form factor was the best balance point between the different drive sets (C/C/C, C/F/F, D/D/D) yielding different unencumbered performance ratings (2/2/2, 2/5/5, 3/3/3 respectively). However, if the D/D/D drive set needs to "fall out of the picture" because it just can't "work" within the constraints I'm wanting to honor with this project, that then suggests that upscaling from 240 tons to 260 tons for the C/C/C=2/2/2 and C/F/F=2/4/4 variants is probably advisable (for a variety of downstream reasons that impact other metrics considerations for end users).

The C/C/C=2/2/2 @ TL=9 and 300 combined tons Far Trader then becomes the "entry level" starship in the family.
The C/F/F=2/4/4 @ TL=10 and 300 combined tons Fast Trader becomes the "next step upgrade" starship in the family.

Although a E/E/E=3/3/3 @ TL=10 and 251-333 combined tons Clipper is "doable" (probably at the 280, 300 or 320 ton breakpoints) and would have a maximum combined tonnage capacity of 1000 tons @ J1/1G ... a slightly "less optimized" setup of F/F/F=3/3/3 @ TL=10 and 320-400 combined tons Clipper would probably be a superior form factor and drive set to work with, even if still limited to a combined tonnage capacity of 1000 tons @ J1/1G (instead of 1200 tons) because of how things "change" for the accounting of small craft tonnages (at tonnage when carried by 1000 tons or less, at 130% tonnage when carried by 1001+ tons) and when accounting for crew requirements (1200 combined tons requires a crew of 12 as per LBB2.81, p16). Moving from a crew of 8 (1000 combined tons limit) to a crew of 12 (1200 combined tons limit) would be counterproductive, in a variety of ways, for increases in (useful) payload fraction.



So yet another RETHINK is happening, but I'm getting closer to freezing finalized designs for this family of "low" tech starships. :unsure:
 
So, a bit of (spreadsheet details) progress, today.
Looks like the recompute is settling out into a pair of 260 ton hulls for the Far and Fast Traders ... and a 340 ton hull for the Clipper.

There are some common components in the embarked small craft that I'll repeat here before doing individual posts for each of the starships.



Gig Vehicle (Type-GV, TL=9)
20 ton small craft hull, configuration: 1 (MCr2.4)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9)
3.4 tons for LBB5.80 custom Maneuver-6 (Agility=6 requires 1.2 EP) (MCr1.7)
3.9 tons for LBB5.80 custom Power Plant-6 (EP=1.3) (MCr11.7)
0.7 tons for LBB5.80 jump capacitors (EP=25.2 capacity, 21 turns/7 hours @ EP=1.2 continuous output) (MCr2.8)
1 ton for fuel (16d 06h 41m endurance @ 1.2 EP output+basic power continuous) (basic power only consumes 0.01 tons of fuel per 7d)
4 tons for bridge (crew: 2, pilot, gunner, acceleration couches life support endurance: 12-24 hours) (MCr0.1)
2 tons for model/2 computer (TL=7, EP: 0) (MCr9)
1 ton for mixed triple turret: missile, pulse laser, missile (TL=9, batteries: 3, codes: 1/1/1, EP: 1, 3 missiles per battery, 12 reloads in turret shared between missile launchers) (MCr3.1)
* External Docking: 150 tons capacity (MCr0.3)
4 tons for grav vehicle berth: Air/Raft or Prospector's Buggy
0 tons for cargo hold

= 0+3.4+3.9+0.7+1+4+2+1+4+0 = 20 tons
= 2.4+0+1.7+11.7+2.8+0.1+9+3.1+0.3 = MCr31.1 single production
(18x HE Missiles = MCr0.09, bought after completing construction)
(Prospector's Buggy = MCr0.75 or Air/Raft = MCr0.6, bought after completing construction)
  • 1G, Agility=0: 170 - 20 = 150 tons external load
  • 1G, Agility=1: 130 - 20 = 110 tons external load
  • 2G, Agility=1: 68 - 20 = 48 tons external load
  • 2G, Agility=2: 65 - 20 = 45 tons external load
  • 3G, Agility=3: 42 - 20 = 22 tons external load
  • 4G, Agility=4: 30 - 20 = 10 tons external load
  • 5G, Agility=5: 24 - 20 = 4 tons external load
  • 6G, Agility=6: 20 - 20 = 0 tons external load
=====

Stateroom Box (Type-RU, TL=9)
20 ton small craft hull, configuration: 4 (MCr1.2)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9)
20 tons for 5x single occupancy starship staterooms (MCr2.5)
* External Docking: 4x 20 = 80 tons capacity (MCr0.16)
0 tons for cargo hold

= 0+20+0 = 20 tons
= 1.2+2.5+0.16 = MCr3.86 single production

=====

Multi-A Box (Type-RU, TL=9)
20 ton small craft hull, configuration: 4 (MCr1.2)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9)
12 tons for 3x single occupancy starship staterooms (MCr1.5)
6 tons for laboratory (MCr1.2)
2 tons for 4x single occupancy low berths (MCr0.2)
* External Docking: 4x 20 = 80 tons capacity (MCr0.16)
0 tons for cargo hold

= 0+12+6+2+0 = 20 tons
= 1.2+1.5+1.2+0.2+0.16 = MCr4.26 single production

=====

Multi-B Box (Type-RU, TL=9)
20 ton small craft hull, configuration: 4 (MCr1.2)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9)
12 tons for 3x single occupancy starship staterooms (MCr1.5)
8 tons for laboratory (MCr1.6)
* External Docking: 4x 20 = 80 tons capacity (MCr0.16)
0 tons for cargo hold

= 0+12+8+0 = 20 tons
= 1.2+1.5+1.6+0.16 = MCr4.46 single production

=====

Laboratory Box (Type-LU, TL=9)
20 ton small craft hull, configuration: 4 (MCr1.2)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9)
20 tons for laboratory (MCr4)
* External Docking: 4x 20 = 80 tons capacity (MCr0.16)
0 tons for cargo hold

= 0+20+0 = 20 tons
= 1.2+4+0.16 = MCr5.36 single production

=====

Environment Box (Type-LU, TL=9)
20 ton small craft hull, configuration: 4 (MCr1.2)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9)
20 tons for environment tank (MCr2)
* External Docking: 4x 20 = 80 tons capacity (MCr0.16)
0 tons for cargo hold

= 0+20+0 = 20 tons
= 1.2+2+0.16 = MCr3.36 single production

=====

Cargo Box (Type-AU, TL=9)
20 ton small craft hull, configuration: 4 (MCr1.2)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9)
* External Docking: 4x 20 = 80 tons capacity (MCr0.16)
20 tons for cargo hold

= 0+20 = 20 tons
= 1.2+0.16 = MCr1.36
 
Rule of Man Far Trader
260 tons starship hull, configuration: 1 (MCr31.2)
35 tons for LBB2.81 standard C/C/C drives (codes: 2/2/2, TL=9, EP=6) (MCr66)
72 tons of total fuel: 260 tons @ J2 = 52 tons jump fuel + 20 tons power plant fuel
0 tons for fuel scoops (MCr0.26)
9 tons for TL=9 fuel purification plant (200 ton capacity is minimum) (MCr0.038)
20 tons for bridge (600 ton rating, MCr3)
2 tons for model/2 computer (MCr9)
120 tons for hangar berths capacity (MCr0.24)
  1. Gig Vehicle = 20 tons (air/raft)
  2. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
  3. Multi-A Box = 20 tons (3x high passengers, 4x low passengers, V-c life support for 3)
  4. Stateroom Box = 20 tons (starship pilot, small craft pilot, navigator, medic, gunner) (5x staterooms)
  5. Laboratory Box = 20 tons (V-c life support for 10)
  6. Stateroom Box = 20 tons (engineer, purser/purser, steward, 2x high passengers) (5x staterooms)
* External Docking: 340 tons capacity (MCr0.68)
  1. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
  2. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
2 tons for cargo hold
  • 120 ton capacity collapsible fuel tank = 1.2 ton (MCr0.06)
= 35+72+9+20+2+120+2 = 260 tons

= 31.2+66+0.26+0.038+3+9+0.24+0.68+0.06 = MCr110.478+(31.1+0.6)+(1.36*2.6)+(4.26)+(3.86*1.8)+(5.36) =
MCr162.282 * 1.0 = MCr162.282 single (+volume duplicated boxes) production

= MCr110.478+(31.1+0.6)+(1.36*3)+(4.26)+(3.86*2)+(5.36) = MCr163.598 * 0.8 = MCr130.8784 volume production

Crew = 8 (Cr33,100 per 4 weeks crew salaries)
  1. Pilot-1 = Cr6000
  2. Ship's Boat-1 = Cr6000
  3. Navigator-1 = Cr5000
  4. Engineering-1 = Cr4000
  5. Steward-1/Steward-1 (purser) = Cr5400
  6. Steward-1 = Cr3300
  7. Medical-3 = Cr2400
  8. Gunnery-1 = Cr1000
  • J2, 2G, Agility=2: 260 + 40 = 300 combined tons
  • J1, 1G, Agility=1: 260 + 340 = 600 combined tons
Revenue Tonnage @ J2/2G
  • 5x high passengers
  • 4x low passengers
  • 60 tons owned cargo capacity
Revenue Tonnage @ J1/1G
  • 5x high passengers
  • 4x low passengers
  • 60 tons owned cargo capacity
  • 300 tons external load charter capacity
 
Rule of Man Fast Trader
260 tons starship hull, configuration: 1 (MCr31.2)
50 tons for LBB2.81 standard C/F/F drives (codes: 2/4/4, TL=10, EP=12) (MCr102)
92 tons of total fuel: 260 tons @ J2 = 52 tons jump fuel + 40 tons power plant fuel
0 tons for fuel scoops (MCr0.26)
8 tons for TL=10 fuel purification plant (200 ton capacity is minimum) (MCr0.036)
20 tons for bridge (1000 ton rating, MCr5)
2 tons for model/2 computer (MCr9)
80 tons for hangar berths capacity (MCr0.16)
  1. Gig Vehicle = 20 tons (air/raft)
  2. Stateroom Box = 20 tons (starship pilot, small craft pilot, navigator, medic, gunner) (5x staterooms)
  3. Laboratory Box = 20 tons (V-c life support for 10)
  4. Stateroom Box = 20 tons (engineer, purser/purser, steward, 2x high passengers) (5x staterooms)
* External Docking: 740 tons capacity (MCr1.48)
  1. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
  2. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
8 tons for cargo hold
  • Mail Vault = 5 tons
  • 82 ton capacity collapsible fuel tank = 0.82 ton (MCr0.041)
= 50+92+8+20+2+80+8 = 260 tons

= 31.2+102+0.26+0.036+5+9+0.16+1.48+0.041 = MCr149.177+(31.1+0.6)+(1.36*1.8)+(3.86*1.8)+(5.36) =
MCr195.633 * 1.0 = MCr195.633 single (+volume duplicated boxes) production

= MCr149.177+(31.1+0.6)+(1.36*2)+(3.86*2)+(5.36) = MCr196.677 * 0.8 = MCr157.3416 volume production

Crew = 8 (Cr37,350 per 4 weeks crew salaries)
  1. Pilot-1 = Cr6000
  2. Ship's Boat-1 = Cr6000
  3. Navigator-1 = Cr5000
  4. Engineering-2/Engineering-2 = Cr6600
  5. Steward-1/Steward-1 (purser) = Cr5400
  6. Steward-1/Steward-1 = Cr4950
  7. Medical-3 = Cr2400
  8. Gunnery-1 = Cr1000
  • J2, 4G, Agility=4: 260 + 40 = 300 combined tons
  • J1, 3G, Agility=3: 260 + 140 = 400 combined tons
  • J1, 2G, Agility=2: 260 + 340 = 600 combined tons
  • J0, 1G, Agility=1: 260 + 740 = 1000 combined tons (limited by bridge and external docking capacity)
Revenue Tonnage @ J2/4G
  • 2x high passengers
  • 5 ton Mail Vault
  • 42 tons owned cargo capacity
Revenue Tonnage @ J1/3G
  • 2x high passengers
  • 5 ton Mail Vault
  • 42 tons owned cargo capacity
  • 100 tons external load charter capacity
Revenue Tonnage @ J1/2G
  • 2x high passengers
  • 5 ton Mail Vault
  • 42 tons owned cargo capacity
  • 300 tons external load charter capacity
Revenue Tonnage @ J0/1G
  • 2x high passengers
  • 5 ton Mail Vault
  • 42 tons owned cargo capacity
  • 600 tons external load charter capacity
 
Rule of Man Clipper
340 tons starship hull, configuration: 1 (MCr40.8)
65 tons for LBB2.81 standard F/F/F drives (codes: 3/3/3, TL=10, EP=12) (MCr136)
132 tons of total fuel: 340 tons @ J3 = 102 tons jump fuel + 30 tons power plant fuel
0 tons for fuel scoops (MCr0.34)
8 tons for TL=10 fuel purification plant (200 ton capacity is minimum) (MCr0.036)
20 tons for bridge (1000 ton rating, MCr5)
2 tons for model/2bis computer (MCr18)
100 tons for hangar berths capacity (MCr0.2)
  1. Gig Vehicle = 20 tons (air/raft)
  2. Multi-A Box = 20 tons (3x high passengers, 4x low passengers, V-c life support for 3)
  3. Stateroom Box = 20 tons (starship pilot, small craft pilot, navigator, medic, gunner) (5x staterooms)
  4. Laboratory Box = 20 tons (V-c life support for 10)
  5. Stateroom Box = 20 tons (engineer, purser/purser, steward, 2x high passengers) (5x staterooms)
* External Docking: 660 tons capacity (MCr1.32)
  1. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
  2. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
  3. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
13 tons for cargo hold
  • Vehicle Berth: Speeder = 6 tons (MCr1)
  • Mail Vault = 5 tons
  • 100 ton capacity collapsible fuel tank = 1 ton (MCr0.05)
= 65+132+8+20+2+100+13 = 340 tons

= 40.8+136+0.34+0.036+5+18+0.2+1.32+1+0.05 = MCr202.746+(31.1+0.6)+(1.36*2.6)+(4.26)+(3.86*1.8)+(5.36) =
MCr254.55 * 1.0 = MCr254.55 single (+volume duplicated boxes) production

= MCr202.746+(31.1+0.6)+(1.36*3)+(4.26)+(3.86*2)+(5.36) = MCr255.866 * 0.8 = MCr204.6928 volume production

Crew = 8 (Cr37,350 per 4 weeks crew salaries)
  1. Pilot-1 = Cr6000
  2. Ship's Boat-1 = Cr6000
  3. Navigator-1 = Cr5000
  4. Engineering-2/Engineering-2 = Cr6600
  5. Steward-1/Steward-1 (purser) = Cr5400
  6. Steward-1/Steward-1 = Cr4950
  7. Medical-3 = Cr2400
  8. Gunnery-1 = Cr1000
  • J3, 3G, Agility=3: 340 + 60 = 400 combined tons
  • J2, 2G, Agility=2: 340 + 260 = 600 combined tons
  • J1, 1G, Agility=1: 340 + 660 = 1000 combined tons (limited by bridge and external docking capacity)
Revenue Tonnage @ J3/3G
  • 5x high passengers
  • 4x low passengers
  • 5 ton Mail Vault
  • 61 tons owned cargo capacity
Revenue Tonnage @ J2/2G
  • 5x high passengers
  • 4x low passengers
  • 5 ton Mail Vault
  • 61 tons owned cargo capacity
  • 200 tons external load charter capacity
Revenue Tonnage @ J1/1G
  • 5x high passengers
  • 4x low passengers
  • 5 ton Mail Vault
  • 61 tons owned cargo capacity
  • 600 tons external load charter capacity
 
Rule of Man Far Trader
MCr130.8784
volume production
  • J2, 2G, Agility=2: 260 + 40 = 300 combined tons
  • J1, 1G, Agility=1: 260 + 340 = 600 combined tons
Revenue Tonnage @ J2/2G
  • 5x high passengers
  • 4x low passengers
  • 60 tons owned cargo capacity
Revenue Tonnage @ J1/1G
  • 5x high passengers
  • 4x low passengers
  • 60 tons owned cargo capacity
  • 300 tons external load charter capacity
:unsure:

I may have been too hasty in jumping to the conclusion that a C/C/C drives install (35 tons total) was a good idea.
Why?
Because "raising ambitions" back up to D/D/D drives is yielding a dramatically improved payload fraction. 😘
Take a look at these details ...



Rule of Man Long Trader
280 tons starship hull, configuration: 1 (MCr33.6)
45 tons for LBB2.81 standard D/D/D drives (codes: 2/2/2, TL=9, EP=8) (MCr88)
82.8 tons of total fuel: 280 tons @ J2 = 56 tons jump fuel + 20 tons power plant fuel
0 tons for fuel scoops (MCr0.28)
9 tons for TL=9 fuel purification plant (200 ton capacity is minimum) (MCr0.038)
20 tons for bridge (800 ton rating, MCr4)
2 tons for model/2 computer (MCr9)
120 tons for hangar berths capacity (MCr0.24)
  1. Gig Vehicle = 20 tons (air/raft)
  2. Multi-A Box = 20 tons (3x high passengers, 4x low passengers, V-c life support for 3)
  3. Multi-A Box = 20 tons (3x high passengers, 4x low passengers, V-c life support for 3)
  4. Stateroom Box = 20 tons (starship pilot, small craft pilot, navigator, medic, gunner) (5x staterooms)
  5. Laboratory Box = 20 tons (V-c life support for 10)
  6. Stateroom Box = 20 tons (engineer, purser/purser, steward, 2x high passengers) (5x staterooms)
* External Docking: 520 tons capacity (MCr1.04)
  1. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
  2. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
  3. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
  4. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
  5. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
  6. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
1.2 tons for cargo hold
  • 120 ton capacity collapsible fuel tank = 1.2 ton (MCr0.06)
= 45+82.8+9+20+2+120+1.2 = 280 tons

= 33.6+88+0.28+0.038+4+9+0.24+1.04+0.06 = MCr136.258+(31.1+0.6)+(1.36*4)+(4.26*1.8)+(3.86*1.8)+(5.36) =
MCr193.374 * 1.0 = MCr193.374 single (+volume duplicated boxes) production

= MCr136.258+(31.1+0.6)+(1.36*6)+(4.26*2)+(3.86*2)+(5.36) = MCr197.718 * 0.8 = MCr158.1744 volume production

Crew = 8 (Cr37,350 per 4 weeks crew salaries)
  1. Pilot-1 = Cr6000
  2. Ship's Boat-1 = Cr6000
  3. Navigator-1 = Cr5000
  4. Engineering-2/Engineering-2 = Cr6600
  5. Steward-1/Steward-1 (purser) = Cr5400
  6. Steward-1/Steward-1 = Cr4950
  7. Medical-3 = Cr2400
  8. Gunnery-1 = Cr1000
  • J2, 2G, Agility=2: 280 + 120 = 400 combined tons
  • J1, 1G, Agility=1: 280 + 520 = 800 combined tons
Revenue Tonnage @ J2/2G
  • 8x high passengers
  • 8x low passengers
  • 120 tons owned cargo capacity
Revenue Tonnage @ J1/1G
  • 8x high passengers
  • 8x low passengers
  • 120 tons owned cargo capacity
  • 400 tons external load charter capacity



By switching from C/C/C drives to D/D/D drives (and adding +20 ton to the starship hull to accommodate the increase):
  • High passenger capacity increases from 5 to 8
  • Low passenger capacity increases from 4 to 8
  • Cargo capacity (owned) increases from 60 tons to 120 tons
  • External charter load capacity increases from 300 tons to 400 tons @ J1/1G
  • Total constructed hull tonnage increases from 260+20*8=420 tons to 280+20*12=520 tons ... an increase of +100 tons
  • Volume construction cost increases from MCr130.8784 to MCr158.1744 ... an increase of +MCr27.296
That's, honestly, a pretty remarkable improvement in payload fraction for a relatively modest increase in construction cost (almost +100% payload fraction for +20.856% construction cost). :unsure:

In fact, it's enough to make me want to rethink both my Far Trader (C/C/C @ 260 tons) and Fast Trader (C/F/F @ 260 tons) designs. 🧐
Makes me think that I ought to be looking at a more ambitious Fast Trader design using D/H/H drives (65 tons, combined) in perhaps a 320 ton form factor (code: 2/5/5 for drive performance) that is only rated up to 320+480 external=800 combined tons @ J1/2G drive performance. :unsure:
 
Rule of Man Fast Trader
MCr157.3416
volume production
  • J2, 4G, Agility=4: 260 + 40 = 300 combined tons
  • J1, 3G, Agility=3: 260 + 140 = 400 combined tons
  • J1, 2G, Agility=2: 260 + 340 = 600 combined tons
  • J0, 1G, Agility=1: 260 + 740 = 1000 combined tons (limited by bridge and external docking capacity)
Revenue Tonnage @ J2/4G
  • 2x high passengers
  • 5 ton Mail Vault
  • 42 tons owned cargo capacity
Revenue Tonnage @ J1/3G
  • 2x high passengers
  • 5 ton Mail Vault
  • 42 tons owned cargo capacity
  • 100 tons external load charter capacity
Revenue Tonnage @ J1/2G
  • 2x high passengers
  • 5 ton Mail Vault
  • 42 tons owned cargo capacity
  • 300 tons external load charter capacity
Revenue Tonnage @ J0/1G
  • 2x high passengers
  • 5 ton Mail Vault
  • 42 tons owned cargo capacity
  • 600 tons external load charter capacity
Hmmm ... yes. :unsure:
Raising the bar on drive performance from C/F/F to D/H/H and increasing the starship (proper) displacement has some very interesting changes flow from that modification.
Have a look and see for yourself. 😳



Rule of Man Fast Trader
300 tons starship hull, configuration: 1 (MCr36)
65 tons for LBB2.81 standard D/H/H drives (codes: 2/5/5, TL=10, EP=16) (MCr136)
110.2 tons of total fuel: 300 tons @ J2 = 60 tons jump fuel + 50 tons power plant fuel
0 tons for fuel scoops (MCr0.3)
8 tons for TL=10 fuel purification plant (200 ton capacity is minimum) (MCr0.036)
20 tons for bridge (800 ton rating, MCr4)
2 tons for model/2 computer (MCr9)
80 tons for hangar berths capacity (MCr0.16)
  1. Gig Vehicle = 20 tons (air/raft)
  2. Stateroom Box = 20 tons (starship pilot, small craft pilot, navigator, medic, gunner) (5x staterooms)
  3. Laboratory Box = 20 tons (V-c life support for 10)
  4. Stateroom Box = 20 tons (engineer, purser/purser, steward, 2x high passengers) (5x staterooms)
* External Docking: 500 tons capacity (MCr1)
  1. Multi-A Box = 20 tons (3x high passengers, 4x low passengers, V-c life support for 3)
  2. Multi-A Box = 20 tons (3x high passengers, 4x low passengers, V-c life support for 3)
  3. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
  4. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
  5. Cargo or Environment Box = 20 tons
14.8 tons for cargo hold
  • Speeder = 6 tons (MCr1)
  • 80 ton capacity collapsible fuel tank = 0.8 tons (MCr0.04)
= 65+110.2+8+20+2+80+14.8 = 300 tons

= 36+136+0.3+0.036+4+9+0.16+1+1+0.04 = MCr187.536+(31.1+0.6)+(1.36*2.6)+(4.26*1.8)+(3.86*1.8)+(5.36) =
MCr242.748 * 1.0 = MCr242.748 single (+volume duplicated boxes) production

= MCr187.536+(31.1+0.6)+(1.36*3)+(4.26*2)+(3.86*2)+(5.36) = MCr244.916 * 0.8 = MCr195.9328 volume production

Crew = 8 (Cr37,350 per 4 weeks crew salaries)
  1. Pilot-1 = Cr6000
  2. Ship's Boat-1 = Cr6000
  3. Navigator-1 = Cr5000
  4. Engineering-2/Engineering-2 = Cr6600
  5. Steward-1/Steward-1 (purser) = Cr5400
  6. Steward-1/Steward-1 = Cr4950
  7. Medical-3 = Cr2400
  8. Gunnery-1 = Cr1000
  • J2, 5G, Agility=5: 300 + 20 = 320 combined tons (non-standard load out)
  • J2, 4G, Agility=4: 300 + 100 = 400 combined tons
  • J1, 3G, Agility=3: 300 + 233 = 533 combined tons
  • J1, 2G, Agility=2: 300 + 500 = 800 combined tons
Revenue Tonnage @ J2/4G
  • 8x high passengers
  • 8x low passengers
  • 68 tons owned cargo capacity
Revenue Tonnage @ J1/3G
  • 8x high passengers
  • 8x low passengers
  • 68 tons owned cargo capacity
  • 133 tons external load charter capacity
Revenue Tonnage @ J1/2G
  • 8x high passengers
  • 8x low passengers
  • 75 tons owned cargo capacity
  • 400 tons external load charter capacity


Doing the same type of cross-comparison between the 260 ton C/F/F drive design and the 300 ton D/H/H drive design variants yields the following:
  • High passenger capacity increases from 2 to 8
  • Low passenger capacity increases from 0 to 8
  • Cargo capacity (owned) increases from 40 tons to 76 tons
  • External charter load capacity increases from 300 tons to 400 tons @ J1/2G
  • Total constructed hull tonnage increases from 260+20*6=380 tons to 300+20*9=480 tons ... an increase of +100 tons
  • Volume construction cost increases from MCr157.3416 to MCr195.9328 ... an increase of +MCr38.5912
Which isn't bad for a starship design that is meant to "pack 480 tons of hull(s) into a 400 ton displacement" for J2/4G performance (or can be cut down to "pack 400 tons of hull(s) into a 320 ton displacement" for J2/5G performance if you really need to run a blockade with a lighter load). :unsure:
 
So ... something interesting popped out of the math of the last 2 iterations that won't be apparent to anyone (besides me) until I explain it, because I've got the complete regression for these designs. ;)



Obviously I've been working on the basis of a 20 ton modular building block (lately), because it's a "convenient min/max size" for an incredible variety of Stuffs™. However, on thing that absolutely WON'T fit into a 20 ton form factor is a fighter small craft with a model/4 computer. 😖

I can squeeze a model/3 computer into a TL=9 fighter small craft of 20 tons. It's a tight fit and the resulting design has "short legs" due to life support endurance limitations (acceleration couches only, not enough room left over for small craft cabins).



Fighter Decoy (Type-FQ, TL=9)
20 ton small craft hull, configuration: 1 (MCr2.4)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9)
3.4 tons for LBB5.80 custom Maneuver-6 (Agility=6 requires 1.2 EP) (MCr1.7)
6.9 tons for LBB5.80 custom Power Plant-B (EP=2.3) (MCr20.7)
0.55 tons for LBB5.80 jump capacitors (EP=19.8 capacity, 9 turns/3 hours @ EP=2.2 continuous output) (MCr2.2)
1 ton for fuel (8d 23h 23m endurance @ 2.2 EP output continuous+basic power continuous) (basic power only consumes 0.01 tons of fuel per 7d)
4 tons for bridge (crew: 2, pilot, gunner, acceleration couches life support endurance: 12-24 hours) (MCr0.1)
3 tons for model/3 computer (TL=9, EP: 1) (MCr18)
1 ton for triple turret: missile, missile, missile (TL=9, batteries: 3, codes: 1/1/1, EP: 0, 3 missiles per battery, 12 reloads in turret shared between missile launchers) (MCr3.35)
* External Docking: 150 tons capacity (MCr0.3)
0.15 tons for cargo hold

= 0+3.4+6.9+0.55+1+4+3+1+0.15 = 20 tons
= 2.4+0+1.7+20.7+2.2+0.1+18+3.35+0.3 = MCr48.75 (21x HE Missiles = MCr0.105, post-construction)
  • 1G, Agility=0: 170 - 20 = 150 tons external load
  • 1G, Agility=1: 130 - 20 = 110 tons external load
  • 2G, Agility=1: 68 - 20 = 48 tons external load
  • 2G, Agility=2: 65 - 20 = 45 tons external load
  • 3G, Agility=3: 42 - 20 = 22 tons external load
  • 4G, Agility=4: 30 - 20 = 10 tons external load
  • 5G, Agility=5: 24 - 20 = 4 tons external load
  • 6G, Agility=6: 20 - 20 = 0 tons external load



If I take the same basic design premise/mission role and bump it up to TL=10 in order to fit a model/4 computer into it, the hull basically needs to go from 20 tons up to 30 tons (while still having "short legs" due to life support endurance limitations because acceleration couches only, not enough room left over for small craft cabins).



Fighter Missile (Type-FM, TL=10)
30 ton small craft hull, configuration: 1 (MCr3.6)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9)
5.1 tons for LBB5.80 custom Maneuver-6 (Agility=6 requires 1.8 EP) (MCr2.55)
11.4 tons for LBB5.80 custom Power Plant-C (EP=3.8) (MCr34.2)
0.95 tons for LBB5.80 jump capacitors (EP=34.2 capacity, 9 turns/3 hours @ EP=3.8 continuous output) (MCr3.8)
1.5 tons for fuel (7d 19h 21m endurance @ 3.8 EP output continuous+basic power continuous) (basic power only consumes 0.015 tons of fuel per 7d)
6 tons for bridge (crew: 2, pilot, gunner, acceleration couches life support endurance: 12-24 hours) (MCr0.15)
4 tons for model/4 computer (TL=10, EP: 2) (MCr30)
1 ton for triple turret: missile, missile, missile (TL=9, batteries: 3, codes: 1/1/1, EP: 0, 3 missiles per battery, 12 reloads in turret shared between missile launchers) (MCr3.35)
* External Docking: 225 tons capacity (MCr0.45)
0.05 tons for cargo hold

= 0+5.1+11.4+0.95+1.55+6+4+1 = 30 tons
= 3.6+0+2.55+34.2+3.8+0.15+30+3.35+0.45 = MCr78.1 (21x HE Missiles = MCr0.105, post-construction)
  • 1G, Agility=0: 255 - 30 = 255 tons external load
  • 1G, Agility=1: 180 - 30 = 150 tons external load
  • 2G, Agility=1: 102 - 30 = 72 tons external load
  • 2G, Agility=2: 90 - 30 = 60 tons external load
  • 3G, Agility=2: 63 - 30 = 33 tons external load
  • 3G, Agility=3: 60 - 30 = 30 tons external load
  • 4G, Agility=3: 46 - 30 = 16 tons external load
  • 4G, Agility=4: 45 - 30 = 15 tons external load
  • 5G, Agility=5: 36 - 30 = 6 tons external load
  • 6G, Agility=6: 30 - 30 = 0 tons external load



Obviously at this point you're starting to get into some "milspec" type performance for the tech level (9-10). It's the computer model and fusion power plant combination that is causing the construction cost to start "going vertical" while marching down the tech tree.

In terms of "what a speculative tramp speculative goods merchant NEEDS" in a fighter escort (to discourage piracy attacks), some variety of the 20 ton fighter with a model/2 computer will typically suffice ... since that form factor leaves 4 tons of payload fraction that can be spent on small craft staterooms (2 single occupancy for a crew of 2, increasing radius of action endurance), or a vehicle berth (either an air/raft or a prospecting buggy).

Ditching that payload option to increase the tonnage allocated to computer+fusion power plant is what makes the model/3 @ TL=9 variant possible (the Fighter Decoy). But to fit a model/4 computer @ TL=10 requires (basically) 30 tons of hull displacement.

And it's that 20-30 ton differential that has me now questioning my decision to use increments of (divisible by) 20 tons starship hull displacements as perhaps being a case of premature optimization. So instead of looking at starship hull displacements of 280, 300, 320, 340, etc. ... which all add increments of +20 VERY CONVENIENTLY in order to reach "nice round numbers" such as 400 and 800 ... perhaps I ought to be looking at "half increments" such as 290, 310, 330, 350, etc. in order to "leave room" for a 30 ton external load docking space. This would then make it (theoretically) possible to "upgrade path" from a modest 20 ton fighter with a model/2 computer installed in it up through the 20 ton fighter with a model/3 computer all the way on up to a 30 ton fighter with a model/4 computer installed in it. That "top of the line" 30 ton fighter option would be EXPENSIVE to pursue ... but if you look at it as an investment (in both offensive AND defensive capability) you start getting into the "bonded courier" type of mission roles that require "higher than nominal security" guarantees. :sneaky:

So although that kind of "milspec" level of investment may not make sense for most customers of the starship classes, deliberately designing them in such a way that "buying the extra gold plating" remains a viable option that won't cause integration problems elsewhere downstream for specialist end users would seem to be a prudent choice of design parameter specifications to convey to the naval architect's office. :unsure:
 
Or, maybe design the ships such that some double-modules of 40 DTons can be fitted, and have them carry a ~30 DTon fighter, plus support equipment, fuel tanks for extra fuel, etc.

Or, if the ships' layout allows, a block of three 20-DTon modules could be replaced with a pair of 30-DTon modules.
 
Or, maybe design the ships such that some double-modules of 40 DTons can be fitted, and have them carry a ~30 DTon fighter, plus support equipment, fuel tanks for extra fuel, etc.

Or, if the ships' layout allows, a block of three 20-DTon modules could be replaced with a pair of 30-DTon modules.
Or a spine of mounts that can handle 3 20 ton modules or 2 30 ton.
That's the fun thing ... there's no SINGLE *bestest* answer to the "stack size" question for the Jhenga pile. It's more a matter of calculating conveniences with the assumption that the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) model of design is going to wind up being the most elegant/best/most generally applicable in the long run.

So something like building everything on a "common module" sizing of 20 tons with a distinct set of dimensional bounding (I'm thinking in terms of being able to fit 2x ATVs into a Cargo Box that can be used as vehicle berths) then sets expectations for building up arrays of identical form factors to plug into naval architect spreadsheets and use for deck plans. Making each "20 ton slot/spot" be interchangeable, so as to be able to mix'n'match modules into "any" location inside and/or outside the hull has the knock on effect of making logistics marshaling extremely simple.
Everything is 20 tons.
Everything "fits" into the same 20 ton form factor "spaces" in and around the hull.
Bob's your uncle (or words to that effect). :sneaky:



However, looking at the details of the 20 ton v 30 ton fighter designs, I finally noticed something that I hadn't "seen" before (or if I had, it's been a while, I discarded the notion a bit too hastily):
  • 20 ton Fighter
    • 1G, Agility=0: 170 - 20 = 150 tons external load
  • 30 ton Fighter
    • 1G, Agility=0: 255 - 30 = 225 tons external load
That 225 tons of external load capacity is enough to dock with and externally tow a 200 ton starship.
200 * 1.1 = 220 tons of external load capacity required

The 30 ton hull factor also has the side effect of making displacement tonnage interchangeable with both the stock & standard 30 ton Ship's Boat as well as the 30 ton Modular Cutter Module. Granted, the form factor dimensions of those two craft are not interchangeable (in deck plan terms), but we can't have everything.



Redesigning the embarked Fighter to be 30 tons, instead of 20 tons ... and then explicitly doing so with the expectation that all starship variants will "host" the embarked Fighter at an external docking point (I'm thinking dorsal mount forward, in terms of deck plans), rather than using an enclosed internal hangar bay spot for it might be the better way to go. :unsure:

After all, it basic idea is that the fighter and the starship will mobilize for any transfer orbits as a convoy, with the fighter launched and operational during the entire trip. The fighter can dock with the starship for jumps, in keeping with the "jump tug" thematic for the entire design purpose, but the rest of the time the fighter needs to be "flying free" as a mobile turret/screening defense asset.

Which then brings up the question of endurance ... specifically life support endurance onboard the fighter.
For "short haul" trips (world to outside of jump shadow), the 12-24 hour life support endurance of acceleration couches is "good enough" to get the job done ... but for "longer haul" journeys, such as interplanetary orbital transfers, the crew onboard the fighter are going to need to be able to get their rest and (life support) replenishment. In the absence of stateroom accommodations onboard the fighter itself, the fighter will need to periodically dock with the starship to allow the fighter crew (pilot, gunner) to rest and recuperate in their own staterooms onboard the starship.

Strictly speaking, according to the RAW of LBB5.80, with respect to the launching and recovery of sub-craft ... this is something of a non-issue (kinda sorta). In combat sequencing terms, launch and recovery of sub-craft is Step 1 ... before even determining initiative (in Step 2). However, from a roleplaying perspective (rather than a rollplaying perspective), getting surprised without your fighter launched and flying a parallel course in convoy could have some highly unfortunate "flatfooted" implications as a coffin corner case that ought to be avoided (if possible/practical).



So one possibility that I'm considering here is the notion that a 30 ton fighter with a model/2 computer installed in it could potentially have room for 2x single occupancy starship staterooms (8 tons). That then takes care of the life support/accommodations endurance factor for the fighter crew (pilot, gunner), both in normal space AND in jump space. Basically, the fighter crew "lives" onboard the fighter. I could then use 2x Multi-B Boxes for the starship crew (6). The 8 tons of laboratory is enough regenerative biome life support for 4 persons @ Type V-c level.
3 staterooms per Multi-B Box ... but enough life support for 4 persons.
6 starship crew + 2 fighter crew = 8 crew



Multi-B Box (Type-RU, TL=9)
20 ton small craft hull, configuration: 4 (MCr1.2)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9)
12 tons for 3x single occupancy starship staterooms (MCr1.5)
8 tons for laboratory (MCr1.6)
* External Docking: 4x 20 = 80 tons capacity (MCr0.16)
0 tons for cargo hold

= 0+12+8+0 = 20 tons
= 1.2+1.5+1.6+0.16 = MCr4.46



Previously, I've resisted reaching for this option (30 ton fighter, starship staterooms onboard, regenerative life support surplus on the starship to cover the fighter crew's life support needs) ... but now I'm having second thoughts. :unsure:

And I'm having those second thoughts because the 30 ton fighter has enough maneuver drive tonnage to tow a 204 ton big craft @ 1G, Agility=0 (because 204*1.1=224.4, below the 225 ton towing limit) ... while the 20 ton fighter can only tow a 136 ton big craft @ 1G, Agility=0 (because 136*1.1=149.6, below the 150 ton towing limit). Being able to externally tow a 200 ton big craft, such as a (disabled) Free Trader/Far Trader using a small craft as a maneuver tug like that ought to have an incredibly wide variety of potential use cases (starting with Search & Rescue and extending all the way to Salvage & Recovery operations). It's the BROAD applicability of that kind of "200 ton big craft" maneuver tug capability that will probably wind up being "too handy" in way too many unexpected circumstances (that Travellers tend to get themselves into without even really trying).



Ironically, if I pushed the fighter all the way up to 40 tons, a 6G maneuver drive would require 40*0.17=6.8 tons.
6.8/0.02=340 tons @ 1G
340-40=300 tons of external load capacity
300/1.1=272 tons of big craft external load capacity
In other words, a 40 ton (custom) pinnace-class fighter small craft would be capable of maneuver tug towing a 270 ton big craft @ 1G ... and some of my starship designs previously posted in this thread are very close to that displacement for (starship) hull size.

The downside would be that the minimum size of fusion power plant would be 40*0.18=7.2 tons ... which would cost MCr21.6 ... which is starting to get "price-y" for a low tech (TL=9-10) fighter type small craft.

Still, being able to have the small craft "tow the parent big craft" in the event of an emergency ... does not suck ... if you're looking for redundancy in the even of a mishap. :oops:

Even better yet, a 40 ton 6G small craft @ TL=9-10 designed as a fighter will spend 22 tons on maneuver drive, power plant and bridge ... leaving 18 tons for computer (and additional power plant if EP=1+ is needed), armed turret (and additional power plant if EP=1+ is needed, such as for a pulse laser), plus crew accommodations (4-8 tons for staterooms), plus whatever else might need to be fitted (cargo hold, mail vault, vehicle berth: gravitic, whatever).
 
Even better yet, a 40 ton 6G small craft @ TL=9-10 designed as a fighter will spend 22 tons on maneuver drive, power plant and bridge ... leaving 18 tons for computer (and additional power plant if EP=1+ is needed), armed turret (and additional power plant if EP=1+ is needed, such as for a pulse laser), plus crew accommodations (4-8 tons for staterooms), plus whatever else might need to be fitted (cargo hold, mail vault, vehicle berth: gravitic, whatever).
Having the mail vault on the small craft could allow for speedier delivery for high value mail. Think in terms of the following steps.
Arrive in-system
Is the coast clear? If yes then detach small craft to fly mail ahead.
If no then figure out how you're getting yourself out of it.
In some respects if it looks like you're not making it at least the mail might have a chance.

Just a quick random thought.
 
Having the mail vault on the small craft could allow for speedier delivery for high value mail. Think in terms of the following steps.
Arrive in-system
Is the coast clear? If yes then detach small craft to fly mail ahead.
If no then figure out how you're getting yourself out of it.
In some respects if it looks like you're not making it at least the mail might have a chance.
Immediately after jump flash is probably "too soon" to dispatch the 6G away from the starship ... but it can definitely be done once within starport controlled/patrolled space closer to the mainworld (when security can be "outsourced" to local authorities). ;)
 
Immediately after jump flash is probably "too soon" to dispatch the 6G away from the starship ... but it can definitely be done once within starport controlled/patrolled space closer to the mainworld (when security can be "outsourced" to local authorities). ;)
Sure, you have to (as I said) make sure the coast is clear. Especially if it has any armament you don't send it flying away if you think that there is going to be trouble.
 
Is the coast clear? If yes then detach small craft to fly mail ahead.
This is where we run into difficulties of anticipation/prediction. If you're (say, for the sake of illustration purposes) ... 6 hours transit time away from your destination, you're probably going to want to "maintain convoy" with your fighter over "most" of that transit, simply because knowing what will happen 4+ hours from NOW isn't necessarily a trick that works Every Time™.

But there's also context to think about as well. :unsure:
If you're in the "podunk boonies" of a backwater jump over system and the mainworld has a population of 4- ... the Calculated Risk factor changes somewhat. If there's NOBODY ELSE NEARBY because the location has next to no population in the entire star system, you might be able to get away with doing a "speed run" to make a delivery.

If you're in a star system with a population of 9+ (and especially if A) ... dispatching your only armament protection away from your starship for "several hours" becomes a MUCH more risky proposition. However, there can also be an element of Blind Man's Bluff in a "congested" flight pattern, where sending your fighter "away" could be a feint move to lure in potential pirates (so start thinking Q ship type counter-piracy action). Depending on the circumstances (and personalities involved), there can be a pretty wide range of possibilities.

My concern is that just because "the coast is clear" RIGHT NOW does not ipso facto mean that the "coast will remain clear" indefinitely out into the future ... especially if my starship starts "moving along that coast" (so to speak) to get to where I need to go.



"Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future."
 
Sure, you have to (as I said) make sure the coast is clear. Especially if it has any armament you don't send it flying away if you think that there is going to be trouble.
:unsure:

If you've only got 1 fighter to convoy with, you can't afford to "let it run off" and do other work for you (such as a FAST dispatch to deliver a load of mail).
But if you've got 2 of them ... :sneaky: ... you can keep 1 and dispatch 1.

Additionally, if you've got 2 fighters available, you can do duty rotations (12 hours on, 12 hours off) when making longer hauls across normal space (such as interplanetary transfers).

The downside to that approach is that you basically double the tonnage devoted to the small craft. 😣
It's not just the tonnage for the small craft themselves, but also the crew (and the skills they'll need).

There are ways to ... finesse ... the crew issue, such as moving from a Pilot, Gunner arrangement with 2 crew members into a Pilot/Gunner single crew member setup. Game mechanically, there's nothing "preventing" such a change from being "rules legal" but you basically exchange one problem for another by doing that, namely one of recruitment (which I've talked about before).

While cross-training in different specialty skills IS possible with chargen (easier with the basic chargen in LBB1 and LBB S4 than it is with the extended chargen of LBB4-7, unfortunately), it's actually somewhat rare.
Pilot-1 (or Ship's Boat-1) requires only a single skill roll (obviously).
Gunnery-1, likewise, requires only a single skill roll.
But getting a combination of Pilot-2/Gunnery-2 (or Ship's Boat-2/Gunnery-2) requires FOUR skill rolls (minimum) to yield that result. :oops:
And reaching for Pilot-3/Gunnery-2 (to pilot an unarmed starship OR armed small craft, on a crew rotation) requires FIVE skill rolls (minimum) to yield that result.

Now, in a Traveller Universe with TRILLIONS of people in it going through chargen (in some form or fashion), those cross-discipline skill sets WILL HAPPEN ... but they're "unlikely" compared to the single skill alternative. Not IMPOSSIBLE, but definitely a smaller pool of people with the necessary skill requirements. The flipside, of course, is that people WITH that mix of skills draw "better salaries" than people with only the bare minimum Skill-1 requirements, so those (fewer) qualified cross-trained applicants ARE being compensated for their broader skillset.



This is something I've thought about before in relation to this little "research project" I've been running. The typical choice (in terms of flight crew) is to reach for the following skills:
  1. Pilot-1 = Cr6000
  2. Navigator-1 = Cr5000
  3. Ship's Boat-1 = Cr6000
  4. Gunnery-1 = Cr1000
That's 4 people, no "special" skill levels required, absolute bare minimum qualifications are all you need.
4 people = Cr18,000 in monthly salaries ... and in commercial service, requires 4 single occupancy staterooms.



If you "crunch" the fighter crew down from 2 people to 1, you get this:
  1. Pilot-1 = Cr6000
  2. Navigator-1 = Cr5000
  3. Ship's Boat-2/Gunnery-2 = (6000*1.1)+(1000*1.1) = 7700*0.75 = Cr5775
You basically need a "turn & burn" small craft fighter pilot, who can get "too close for missiles, switching to guns" when they fly.
3 people = Cr16,775 in monthly salaries ... and in commercial service, requires 3 single occupancy staterooms.
All else being equal, that basically means +1 high passenger (because -1 crew member) AND a lower monthly crew salary expense.
2x high passenger tickets per 4 weeks = Cr20,000 gained in revenue ... while simultaneously saving Cr1225 in crew salary overhead expenses, relative to the Skill-1 baseline. So basically, Win/Win/Win, relative to the alternative ... but only *IF* you can "find the right people, with the right skills" for the job.



Extend that slightly further such that you want "both pilots" to be skilled enough to fly either the starship OR the small craft fighter on a crew rotation basis (so mix 'n' match, interchangeable pilots) and you get this:
  1. Pilot-3/Gunnery-2 (chief) = (6000*1.2)+(1000*1.1) = 8300*0.75*1.1 = Cr6847.5 ≈ Cr6848
  2. Pilot-3/Gunnery-2 = (6000*1.2)+(1000*1.1) = 8300*0.75 = Cr6225
  3. Navigator-1 = Cr5000
Now you need 2x "turn & burn" big craft "fighter" pilots, who can get "too close for missiles, switching to guns" when they fly.
3 people = Cr18,073 in monthly salaries ... and in commercial service, requires 3 single occupancy staterooms.
All else being equal, that basically means +1 high passenger (because -1 crew member) AND a lower monthly crew salary expense.
2x high passenger tickets per 4 weeks = Cr20,000 gained in revenue ... while simultaneously adding only Cr73 in crew salary overhead expenses, relative to the Skill-1 baseline.

The beauty of THIS setup is that when one of those pilots is flying the (unarmed) starship, there's no Gunnery tasks to divide their workload into ... so they get to apply their full (undivided) Pilot-3 skill to flying the starship, meaning +1 Agility to the starship's performance (LBB5.80, p44). However, when flying the fighter ... their skills are -1 to Pilot for flying a small craft (to default to Ship's Boat skill) and -1 to Pilot AND Gunnery for filling 2 crew positions with 1 person, so their "net throughput" in terms of skill equivalency becomes Ship's Boat-1 and Gunnery-1 ... which meets minimum qualification requirements.



If you then add a second fighter craft into the mix and want to be able to crew it independently (so you can do 1 convoy and 1 dispatch/reserve fighter), you wind up with this:
  1. Pilot-1 = Cr6000
  2. Navigator-1 = Cr5000
  3. Ship's Boat-2/Gunnery-2 (chief) = (6000*1.1)+(1000*1.1) = 7700*0.75*1.1 = Cr6352.5 ≈ Cr6353
  4. Ship's Boat-2/Gunnery-2 = (6000*1.1)+(1000*1.1) = 7700*0.75 = Cr5775
4 people = Cr23,128 in monthly salaries ... and in commercial service requires 4 single occupancy staterooms.

- OR -
  1. Pilot-3/Gunnery-2 (chief) = (6000*1.2)+(1000*1.1) = 8300*0.75*1.1 = Cr6847.5 ≈ Cr6848
  2. Pilot-3/Gunnery-2 = (6000*1.2)+(1000*1.1) = 8300*0.75 = Cr6225
  3. Pilot-3/Gunnery-2 = (6000*1.2)+(1000*1.1) = 8300*0.75 = Cr6225
  4. Navigator-1 = Cr5000
4 people = Cr24,298 in monthly salaries ... and in commercial service requires 4 single occupancy staterooms.

... or any kind of intermediate combination of those 2 variations on the theme.



All of which then begs the (logistics/recruiting/retention) question ... is your starship class going to have the "necessary prestige" to be able to attract that kind of talent on the regular such that it's not going to be a tremendous problem keeping crew on payroll? Does your starship class (design) offer ... amenities/quality of life ... above the "base minimum standards" required (by RAW) that will allow owners/operators/crews to draw and retain the highly skilled people necessary to make such assumptions in recruitment of personnel something of a "non-issue" for routine tramp merchant operations?

As you can see from the above "show your work" in crew salaries, any crew recruit with Pilot-2 skill and a single crew position tasking would be drawing a monthly salary of 6000*1.1=Cr6600 per month AND be doing less work to earn that salary than a dual role of the pilot/gunner will earn. However, a pilot (only) will have a "less exciting" line of duties and expectations than a pilot/gunner would, especially if the pilot/gunner gets to rotate duty cycles between a(n unarmed) starship and a high performance small craft fighter. After all, not all compensation is monetary ... sometimes compensation can be the "thrill" of simply doing the job (and knowing that you're doing it well, and that not everyone can do it). That "exclusive club" of pilot/gunners with SKILL who can move back and forth between "big iron" and "nimble fighter" craft like that will have bragging rights all of its own, which lesser skilled crews will only be able to ENVY :cautious: (and aspire to someday join? :rolleyes:).



I'd like to think that the Regenerative Biome Life Support (Type V-c), which in turn requires a full time Service Crew (even on starships under 1000 tons!) and a Medical Doctor (Medical-3 skill, minimum) on board the starship ought to be sufficient "draw" for those types of highly skilled personnel. It ought to make the class of starships (and their fighters) "prestigious enough" to be able to attract and retain that kind of talent in crews, who want to live a better life than just the "bare minimum required by regulations" in order to make use of their skills as spacers ... to the benefit of themselves, and their shipmates. :sneaky:

After all, what makes for a "good ship" is a GOOD CREW. :cool:



Anyway, all of that is a rather long winded way of saying that with the current designs I've worked up, I could theoretically exchange 1x Cargo/Environment Box for 1x Fighter and not have to change the crew size (8 stays 8) ... but the construction cost would go up for the entire completed assembly and the crew salary overhead would need to increase. However, it COULD BE DONE ... and it would enable a variety of "2 fighter rotations" in terms of maneuvers, tasking and even operational roles. 🫡

So definitely worth thinking about. :unsure:
 
:unsure:

This is something I've thought about before in relation to this little "research project" I've been running. The typical choice (in terms of flight crew) is to reach for the following skills:
  1. Pilot-1 = Cr6000
  2. Navigator-1 = Cr5000
  3. Ship's Boat-1 = Cr6000
  4. Gunnery-1 = Cr1000
That's 4 people, no "special" skill levels required, absolute bare minimum qualifications are all you need.
4 people = Cr18,000 in monthly salaries ... and in commercial service, requires 4 single occupancy staterooms.



If you "crunch" the fighter crew down from 2 people to 1, you get this:
  1. Pilot-1 = Cr6000
  2. Navigator-1 = Cr5000
  3. Ship's Boat-2/Gunnery-2 = (6000*1.1)+(1000*1.1) = 7700*0.75 = Cr5775
You basically need a "turn & burn" small craft fighter pilot, who can get "too close for missiles, switching to guns" when they fly.
3 people = Cr16,775 in monthly salaries ... and in commercial service, requires 3 single occupancy staterooms.
All else being equal, that basically means +1 high passenger (because -1 crew member) AND a lower monthly crew salary expense.
2x high passenger tickets per 4 weeks = Cr20,000 gained in revenue ... while simultaneously saving Cr1225 in crew salary overhead expenses, relative to the Skill-1 baseline. So basically, Win/Win/Win, relative to the alternative ... but only *IF* you can "find the right people, with the right skills" for the job.
That the guy with Ship's Boat-2/Gunnery-2 gets paid less than someone with just Ship's Boat-1 while filling in for two people is just daft. I know it's what the rules say, but it's still daft. That Steward-0 pays better than Medic-1 is also suspect (though if you assume some of the Steward's 'pay' is tips it makes a certain amount of sense - but I'd want to reflect that with a low starting pay and a high increase per level of skill).
 
That the guy with Ship's Boat-2/Gunnery-2 gets paid less than someone with just Ship's Boat-1 while filling in for two people is just daft. I know it's what the rules say, but it's still daft.
I agree ... but devising a House Rule to overwrite the RAW of LBB2 is ... inherently suspect. :cautious:
But, let's humor the notion of being able to "undaft" the crew salary rule for this in a way such that a LOWER salary is not a possible outcome. How should that (house rule) be structured to achieve that result? :unsure:



The RAW says to take the salary amounts for the 2 skills involved, add them together and then multiply by 0.75.
This is how you can wind up with a Pilot-2/Gunnery-2 skill mix that yields a crew salary of ((6000*1.1)+(1000*1.1))*0.75=Cr5775 ... which is lower than the salary for a Pilot-1 (single) skill crew position.

If you were to tweak the RAW ever so slightly such that the multiplier was 0.8 instead of 0.75 ... you get this result:
  • ((6000*1.1)+(1000*1.1))*0.8=Cr6160
So more than a Pilot-1 skill level crew salary, but still not as much as a Pilot-2 (single) skill crew salary ... which would be Cr6600.
Therefore, if you keep iterating the multiplier higher ...
  • ((6000*1.1)+(1000*1.1))*0.85=Cr6545
  • ((6000*1.1)+(1000*1.1))*0.9=Cr6930
  • ((6000*1.1)+(1000*1.1))*0.95=Cr7315
  • ((6000*1.1)+(1000*1.1))*1.0=Cr7700 ... which basically amounts to "paying full price" for both skills (Pilot-2/Gunnery-2) in a single crew member.


A different "shape" of mathematics as a solution would be to specify that the "most expensive skill" (of the two being filled by a crew member) must be paid at "full price" while the other "less expensive skill" must be paid at half price. So 100% for one and 50% for the other instead of 75% for both. This would then necessarily force ALL dual skilled crew roles into paying higher wages than single skilled crew roles, no matter what mix of skills are involved. For example:
  • (6000*1.1*1.0)+(1000*1.1*0.5)=Cr7150 for Pilot-2/Gunnery-2
  • (6000*1.2*1.0)+(1000*1.1*0.5)=Cr7750 for Pilot-3/Gunnery-2
  • ((6000*1.2*1.0)+(1000*1.1*0.5))*1.1=Cr8525 for Pilot-3/Gunnery-2 (chief)
The classic CT example of 2 skills in 1 crew member is the pilot/navigator, which shows up in the LBB S7 Far Trader write up.
Under original LBB2.81 rules for crew salaries, that winds up yielding this result:
  • ((6000*1.1)+(5000*1.1))*0.75=Cr9075 for Pilot-2/Navigation-2
If you instead swap over to my proposed house rule of 100% (expensive) and 50% (cheaper), you get this result:
  • (6000*1.1*1.0)+(5000*1.1*0.5)=Cr9350 for Pilot-2/Navigation-2
So a slightly higher crew salary price, but nothing egregiously out of whack (or "just daft" if you prefer) relative to the crew salary of someone who is single skilled compared to someone who is dual skilled (and filling 2 crew positions on the roster).

Incidentally, for purposes of regression testing, a (single skilled) pilot would require Pilot-7 :oops: in order to command a salary of Cr9600 per month in order to exceed the salary expectation of a dual skilled pilot/navigator (life support expenses for 2 people, rather than 1, is a related but distinctly separate issue).



So I'll agree with you that the LBB2.81 dual skilled crew salary RAW is not as well crafted as it should have been in order to guard against corner cases like the Pilot-2/Gunnery-2 (the most extreme) combination.

A house rule of 100% (expensive) and 50% (cheaper) for dual skilled crew members is probably the most elegant alternative to resolve this point. In fact, I like it so much (now that I've plotted it out in a Show Your Work™ fashion) that I think I'll go ahead and use it for my own starship design projects going forward.

If anyone would like me to rewrite the above more concisely (with better editing), I can make a new post in the House Rules section of the forums to use as a point of reference on the topic. Anyone who approves the formulation that I've devised above, let me know in a reply here if you think the house rule I've proposed to rectify this issue in the RAW "works" for you.

Likewise, anyone who thinks that a different approach ought to be used instead ... make your voices keystrokes speak your mind on alternative solutions that you would think are superior to the one I've provided above.
 
A house rule of 100% (expensive) and 50% (cheaper) for dual skilled crew members is probably the most elegant alternative to resolve this point. In fact, I like it so much (now that I've plotted it out in a Show Your Work™ fashion) that I think I'll go ahead and use it for my own starship design projects going forward.

If anyone would like me to rewrite the above more concisely (with better editing), I can make a new post in the House Rules section of the forums to use as a point of reference on the topic. Anyone who approves the formulation that I've devised above, let me know in a reply here if you think the house rule I've proposed to rectify this issue in the RAW "works" for you.

Likewise, anyone who thinks that a different approach ought to be used instead ... make your voices keystrokes speak your mind on alternative solutions that you would think are superior to the one I've provided above.
I like it better than my 'minimal changes' rule, which would've been to multiply the skill level of the cheaper by 0.75 (thus retaining the multiplier from the RAW), which works okay for Pilot/Gunner, but not really for Pilot/Navigator. Should it ever come up in a CT game (should I ever run one), I'll use you suggested rule, I think.
 
I like it better than my 'minimal changes' rule, which would've been to multiply the skill level of the cheaper by 0.75 (thus retaining the multiplier from the RAW), which works okay for Pilot/Gunner, but not really for Pilot/Navigator. Should it ever come up in a CT game (should I ever run one), I'll use you suggested rule, I think.
This is why I like to hash these things out and "lay my cards on the table" to show the thought process going on behind the decision making and put the whole thing up for peer review. ;)

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